Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Kelly, you are the one that said "From a few different little birdies, some insiders on this board, and reports that backed it up." Since you obviously can't point to any "reports that backed it up" I'm calling BS on the whole thing. I don't have time to find "reports" that back up your opinion and obviously you can't find any either. IMHO Whaley/Nix/Brandon were the search committee. They are all responsible equally unless I read from a reliable source otherwise. I explained above what that meant in a long paragraph. Don't believe it. And stay misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I explained above what that meant in a long paragraph. Don't believe it. And stay misinformed. Cool. It's conjecture and what somebody told you. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Cool. It's conjecture and what somebody told you. Got it. Multiple people with multiple reports. There are a handful of very credible posters on here with actual contacts within the team or people who cover the team. Kelly is one and has proven of his tenure here to be far more credible than many of the reporters who cover the team for their job. But if you don't want to believe it that is your prerogative. It's just silly to form such an opinion without understanding where the information is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Cool. It's conjecture and what somebody told you. Got it. Well, in reverse order of that. From people who are in a position to actually know and have great reputations with me from being right. We are never really going to know anything for 100% sure unless you were actually in the room, and even then you wouldn't be sure. Whaley is not going to say to Doug Marrone when they are hiring him "You're not my first choice." You can believe anything you want. I trust the more than a couple people who told me this, as well as the people on this board that said it who have fantastic reputations. If you want to read a story with a video attached to it where Doug Whaley says I wanted Ken Whisenhunt and Brandon and Nix say I wanted Doug Marrone, you may want to bring a bagged lunch, it's going to be awhile. Not only that but it makes the most sense given what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Pretty good strawmen and ad homina there with the "giant homers" and the false dichotomy about "attack anyone showing any criticism of Whaley or he has made no mistakes. No GM hits a homer every time he swings, and everyone can be criticized. The point you fail to address is that FA signings and draft choices aren't made in a vacuum. They're made in the context of -what type of player was being sought (big tackle-size guard? smaller, nimble run blocker?) -who else was available AT THAT TIME? The point is, Whaley made 4 attempts to improve the OL: a FA signing, and 3 draft choices. In retrospect, Chris Williams was a whiff. But was it a blameworthy, bonehead move, or a legitimate attempt to address a known need with the best FA "fit" available AT THAT TIME? I don't know. That's why I'm asking. Context matters. There are some moves that seem inexplicable and are legitimately hard to defend. Examples might be drafting TJ Graham in the 3rd round in 2012 after Fitzpatrick had collapsed in the last half of the 2011 season while Wilson and Foles were still on the board. Chris Williams was a bust as a 1st round tackle draftee, and struggled with injury. He was servicable enough as a guard in St Louis protecting Bradford and opening holes for Steven Jackson that they offered him another year. The following year with Clemens and a no-name back, he didn't look so good. I can understand why B'lo scouts might have thought he was worth a shot, what I don't know is who else (that fit Marrone's "I want big hulking guards" mode) was available. If better big hulking guards were available, it's a suck move, criticize away. If no one better was available, it was a "best of a bad lot" attempt to serve the team. The same thing is true of QB. The FA pickings have been very slim. If a better choice than Orton was available, then it was a mistake not to sign him. If no one was available, it was the best of a bad lot attempt to serve the team. Because context matters, and all the ad hominems and insults you chuck out about "pathetic" and "toxic" don't change that fundamental fact. OK, yeah, he was still in the mix through the draft, I'd forgotten that. Thanks. "All three of these kids (context: OL draftees) are impressive from what they can do" I like Whaley and what he has done. I do find it interesting that that most of the players Whaley has had a hand in acquiring on the defensive side of the ball have done well, while most of the players he has had a hand in acquiring on the offensive side of the ball have not developed, regressed, or simply not done as well as expected. Is there really that much disparity in his abilities to evaluate talent on the defensive side as opposed to the offensive side? Is it a matter of coaching? Is it a combination of the two or something completely different? IMHO, I think it is more about coaching. As an example, many of the defensive players that did not develop, regressed, or didn't play as well as expected under Wannstedt, seemed to flourish under Pettine and Schwartz... Edited January 5, 2015 by billsfan1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BmarvB Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Whaley has earned his keep. He's building a winner here. SO WHAT if he missed on a a couple picks. can you name a GM that hasn't? And who's to say that EJ won't develop. Get off that man's jock and let him finish getting the job done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Yea his draft picks are horrible. I see you convienantly ignore players thag don't fit your agenda.Let's see: Kiko Alonso Preston Brown Jerry Hughes Boobie Dixon Sentreal Henderson Sammy Watkins Robert Woods All players Doug Whaley brought here. And he's added even more loads more of depth. But I'm not going to waste my time. I'm not even sure why I'm responding to this thread.[/quote You forgot Corey Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi1 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Now before answering and before reading this please understand how I am saying this. I am not trying to be a jerk, I am not being sarcastic, I am not bashing I am just trying to wrap my head around why so many think Whaley should still be GM and why the faith in him. I know in print its hard to see how someone is coming across so just imagine we are sitting around having a couple beers, wings and just discussing this. So in looking at Whaley here is what I see so far, he was in on the decision to draft EJ and hire Marrone, two horrible decisions. Now how much decision making did he have in those two decisions? Who knows? What I have read is it SEEMS (again just by what has been said/ printed) Whaley and Bradon wanted to force EJ on Marrone, and it is beyond proven and obvious Marrone and Whaley had issues regardless of what OBD says. Speaking of OBD can we finally agree no matter what its CYA there please? They will tell you that there is nothing to see here, all reports are wrong even if someone had video of it happening. Moving on, here is what I have seen of Whaley in his first year as GM... He signs a FA Guard with tons of ??? on him at Guard and the guy ends up being crap and not playing. Now some will say injuries, but this guy had issues at his last two places and didn't warrant his draft placing. He trades for a WR who hasn't produced since his rookie year, has attitude issues, already has a bad history with our HC And is now on "IR" (wink wink) and we are on the hook cap wise for 5 Mil + next year. He puts his faith in a QB that never should have been drafted in the first round (Was part of that decision), had many knocks against him and all the experts questioned why we took him in the 1st let alone to build this franchise around. He trades away our 1st and 4th this year for a WR who's talent he believes is so clear cut better than anywone else in the Draft that its worth the pick. he also thinks this is the one piece to finally get us over the hump....a rookie WR... Trades a 4th rounder for a RB we never hardly used. I can go on but you are getting the point. So far to me he looks like he has do damn idea what he is doing. Even in Pittsburgh they figured out how the NFL changed and its all about the QB. Now a franchise QB doesn't guarantee you get into the playoffs, but without one you pretty much are screwed. As for as building the Pittsburgh Model they have a Franchise QB, they have ONE RB that carries most of the load with others to back them up. So this building a Pittsburgh model to me is pure nonsense. So just looking at the guy's track record along with no ownership, no "I made that call", "I made that decision" it really bothers me. I just can't have faith in this guy and I can't see how so many are just so happy he is still the GM and have faith in him, So if you all don't mind can we discuss this? Where I understand your reservations about Whaley, surely you wouldn't blame Michael of Godfather fame for the actions of his hot-tempered older brother Sonny, right? The analogy here is that Whaley to date has not been given a free slate yet to do the Frank Sinatra "My"/His "Way" yet...I say Mr. & Mrs. Pegula give him a simple one year contract to either produce on his own without Nix or Marrone or bid adieu. Fair is fair. In respect to EJ, if anyone is a saint between him and St. Doug it's EJ after all he's been through at the inept hands of Hackett and Marrone. Can only imagine what this young gifted athlete could accomplish IF Chip Kelly was developing him. Edited January 5, 2015 by Lombardi1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Always a lame excuse for those who spend significant time on TSW... http://www.capitalbay.com/football/291089-report-bills-talk-to-ex-cards-coach-whisenhunt.html http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?aid=/20130101/sports/130109942/1126 http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/1/4/3835792/buffalo-bills-coaching-candidates-ken-whisenhunt-background Not to bust the bubble, but I do use google, I did read these links, and I still don't find anything here that says Marrone was the favorite for Nix and Brandon whilst Whaley wanted Whisenhunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi1 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Leave it to the much younger, yet much wiser Whaley to contemplate a winner over an abandon ship text-sender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Not to bust the bubble, but I do use google, I did read these links, and I still don't find anything here that says Marrone was the favorite for Nix and Brandon whilst Whaley wanted Whisenhunt. You won't. I don't want to speak for Lurker but he was just showing links to support the idea that the Bills were strongly considering Whisenhunt, and that Whaley liked him, which supports the sequence of events that I and others have said. As I pointed out to reddog above, I think he and perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant about "reports." Perhaps I didn't articulate it well. But here was my explanation above... When I said "From a few different little birdies, some insiders on this board, and reports that backed it up" I meant personal contacts that exchanged texts or call with me (little birdies), some insiders on this board (posters that said they heard from their contacts the same things) and reports that backed that up (similar to what Lurker posted, that the Bills and Whaley were very interested in Whisenhunt). I even think there were rumors from LaContorta that they were deep in negotiations. Those were the reports I was referring to that backed it up. I didn't mean to imply there were articles from reputable sources that say Whaley wanted this guy and Marrone wanted that guy. I don't think you would ever see those. Whaley isn't the type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I like Whaley and what he has done. I do find it interesting that that most of the players Whaley has had a hand in acquiring on the defensive side of the ball have done well, while most of the players he has had a hand in acquiring on the offensive side of the ball have not developed, regressed, or simply not done as well as expected. Is there really that much disparity in his abilities to evaluate talent on the defensive side as opposed to the offensive side? Is it a matter of coaching? Is it a combination of the two or something completely different? IMHO, I think it is more about coaching. As an example, many of the defensive players that did not develop, regressed, or didn't play as well as expected under Wannstedt, seemed to flourish under Pettine and Schwartz... Interesting observation. Yep, George Edwards. Wannstache. Dareus - looking feeble for such a high pick. Mario - overpaid, overrated. We have the best DL in the league on paper, but on Sunday, Man they suck. OMG, Byrd is gone, we're going to be plucked in the passing game next year! Suddenly looked better under Pettine, but the bills couldn't stop the run with a trip wire and a pot of glue. One or two additional players, a different DC and Voila! The run D is a black hole where backs go to die, the passing D is stout, and the DL is wicked good. It's why I roll my eyes and groan when people say we have so much talent on D that the coach doesn't matter. Like h*ll the coach doesn't matter. So. Gailey. OL keeps Fitz upright for the most part and is strong on run blocking. Hairston and Rhinehart are OK, Pears is servicable, Wood and Levitre are nasty. Next year Glenn, Levitre, Wood, Urbik, and Pears are better. Fredex is the Truth, Spiller develops nicely, and we get OK pass production out of a noodle-armed cabuchet of a quarterback and a "goon squad" of no-name WR ( how many are still in the NFL??) We're mid level as an offense, we could use an upgrade at TE, WR and mostly at QB. Then Marrone comes in and all of a sudden we suck totally on offense, our line with 3 of the same 5 plus "upgrades" is horrid beyond belief and 4 of the same 5 is mediocre, not nearly as good. Spiller sucks. We've drafted or traded for what should be much higher quality WR (on paper) and wow, on Sunday, they suck too. So is it the players or is it the coaches? I say bring in some proven coaches on O and let's see!!! You won't. I don't want to speak for Lurker but he was just showing links to support the idea that the Bills were strongly considering Whisenhunt, and that Whaley liked him, which supports the sequence of events that I and others have said. As I pointed out to reddog above, I think he and perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant about "reports." Perhaps I didn't articulate it well. But here was my explanation above... When I said "From a few different little birdies, some insiders on this board, and reports that backed it up" I meant personal contacts that exchanged texts or call with me (little birdies), some insiders on this board (posters that said they heard from their contacts the same things) and reports that backed that up (similar to what Lurker posted, that the Bills and Whaley were very interested in Whisenhunt). I even think there were rumors from LaContorta that they were deep in negotiations. Those were the reports I was referring to that backed it up. I didn't mean to imply there were articles from reputable sources that say Whaley wanted this guy and Marrone wanted that guy. I don't think you would ever see those. Whaley isn't the type. Thanks for the explanation. I knew the Bills had been serious about Whisenhunt. I just had never heard it was a 2 to 1 split where Nix and Brandon wanted Marrone and Whaley wanted Whisenhunt. I agree, if that info leaked out it would not have come from Whaley. LIke his talent e v a l, don't like his talent e v a l, or think it's not proven his deportment and professionalism seem Top Drawer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 How can you say that EJ was Whaley's pick but Kiko was Nix's pick? Nix was still in charge and transitioning to Whaley so you're saying that Whaley was in charge of his first pick but not his second pick? I know you don't like EJ, but even that fact aside, you can't without inside knowledge say that one is to blame and one is to credit on the two separate picks when they were both in the room doing the job. If there is outright proof of what you are saying then sorry but you're pretty much playing both sides to favor your argument. I think you are not reading what the OP said "He puts his faith in a QB that never should have been drafted in the first round (Was part of that decision), had many knocks against him and all the experts questioned why we took him in the 1st let alone to build this franchise around." He did not say Whaley drafted him, he is saying that by putting his faith in EJ this season and not adequately addressing the QB issue, despite all the major questions about EJ, we are in the poor position we are now at QB this coming season. Plus giving up a first this year for Watkins he limited our options to properly address the QB issue not only for this season, but next season as well. That is all on Whaley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I like Whaley and what he has done. I do find it interesting that that most of the players Whaley has had a hand in acquiring on the defensive side of the ball have done well, while most of the players he has had a hand in acquiring on the offensive side of the ball have not developed, regressed, or simply not done as well as expected. Is there really that much disparity in his abilities to evaluate talent on the defensive side as opposed to the offensive side? Is it a matter of coaching? Is it a combination of the two or something completely different? IMHO, I think it is more about coaching. As an example, many of the defensive players that did not develop, regressed, or didn't play as well as expected under Wannstedt, seemed to flourish under Pettine and Schwartz... Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thanks for the explanation. I knew the Bills had been serious about Whisenhunt. I just had never heard it was a 2 to 1 split where Nix and Brandon wanted Marrone and Whaley wanted Whisenhunt. I agree, if that info leaked out it would not have come from Whaley. LIke his talent e v a l, don't like his talent e v a l, or think it's not proven his deportment and professionalism seem Top Drawer. The thing is, it all makes sense as to why Marrone and Whaley didn't get along, Whaley was building a team like the Stellers with a lot of different components and Marrone was not using them, reports of Brandon and Marrone being buddies, Nix wanting to leave with a QB and a coach under his watch and then riding into the sunset, etc, etc, etc. All of that makes perfect sense under this scenario I heard from reliable sources that Whaley liked Marrone but liked Whisenhunt better, and it was a 2-1 split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I think you are not reading what the OP said "He puts his faith in a QB that never should have been drafted in the first round (Was part of that decision), had many knocks against him and all the experts questioned why we took him in the 1st let alone to build this franchise around." He did not say Whaley drafted him, he is saying that by putting his faith in EJ this season and not adequately addressing the QB issue, despite all the major questions about EJ, we are in the poor position we are now at QB this coming season. Plus giving up a first this year for Watkins he limited our options to properly address the QB issue not only for this season, but next season as well. That is all on Whaley. He didn't say Whaley drafted him but said that Kiko and Woods were both Nix picks and not Whaley's. Which is what I was getting at. He inferred that Whaley had no part in the those two picks but was in on the EJ pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I like Whaley and what he has done. I do find it interesting that that most of the players Whaley has had a hand in acquiring on the defensive side of the ball have done well, while most of the players he has had a hand in acquiring on the offensive side of the ball have not developed, regressed, or simply not done as well as expected. Is there really that much disparity in his abilities to evaluate talent on the defensive side as opposed to the offensive side? Is it a matter of coaching? Is it a combination of the two or something completely different? IMHO, I think it is more about coaching. As an example, many of the defensive players that did not develop, regressed, or didn't play as well as expected under Wannstedt, seemed to flourish under Pettine and Schwartz... While I agree that good coaching is a big factor in how a player performs on the field, and the better the coaching then you can expect to get the very best out of each player. **(Going to add Pro Football Focus grades so you can get a better understanding of how the players were evaluated against each other. I don't think of PFF grades as the end all, be all or the holy grail of grading players. They are respected service around the NFL, and they do help keep things in perspective)** That said, you need to look at who Doug Whaley chose to bring in as free agents the last two years for the O line. LG Andy Levitre(+15.7), and his backup in Chad Rinehart (+3.4) both left the Bills previous to the 2013 season, and while Levitre graded as a mediocre run blocker, he also graded as the team best pass blocker. The first two players chosen to replace those two were Colin Brown(-30.1), and David Snow who were both already on the team as backups / practice squad guys. They were both so bad that they were outright cut from the team by week six in 2013. The person Whaley chose to be a backup to center Eric Wood was Steelers backup OG / C in Doug Legursky (-12.5). This player graded as their worst player on a bad Pittsburgh O line, and was signed as a free agent. The Steelers let him leave because he wasn't very good. The Bills were lucky they had signed Legursky who could step in at LG because after they cut Brown, Young, and also very lucky to not have more injuries on that line, as the only backups at that point were players right off the street. For the 2014 off season the Bills cut Doug Legursky, and went out and signed the worst graded player on the (26th graded team) O line in St Louis. Chris Williams had past history of injuuries, and a grade of (-21.8). Williams lasted 2.2 games until he went on IR with a bad back. Just to give you an idea of how good Cordy Glenn played with Andy Levitre next to him his grade for the 2012 season was a (+23.0), and it dropped somewhat in 2013 when he was forced to play with Legursky. Then for the 2014 season he graded around (+2.0) because of Richardson / Pears being next to him. Plus the bad coaching of the O line this season did make a difference IMO. Still not convinced? Then read this article by ESPN http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/120269/bills-taking-odd-risk-in-signing-williams For the people that hate PFF, rotoworld also ran an article on Chris Williams and stating they couldn't figure out why the Bills would even attempt to sign such a bad player, as he graded at 60th out of 64. While Whaley has brought in lots of very good acquisitions for the entire team other then the offense, punter, kick returner, kicker, defense. For some inexplicable reason he has been dumpster diving going after other teams worst graded players for the offensive line. Then the players drafted for the line last year also don't grade out very well as the 7th rounder became a starter only because the 2nd rounder was 1000 times worse, and the fifth round OG played very poorly in his starts this year. My take is ex Bills GM Buddy Nix who is still currently employed by Buffalo as an adviser with the team is the one telling Whaley that he can get by with sub par players on the O line. It was his philosophy that OG's are a dime a dozen, that any OT can be moved successfully inside to play OG, and that OG's can be found in the later rounds. Its a really stupid philosophy as each and every one of those ideas became bad ideas as OG's aren't a dime a dozen, as RT Pears proved he was horrible as a RG this year, as Richardson showed that good OG's aren't always found in the mid to late rounds in the draft. Probably why its been reported that Buddy Nix won't be back as an adviser after his contract expires this month. Lets hope things get better for the offense, and O line for 2015. Coaching, and players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Even if I attribute the EJ pick to Whaley, I still think he's been a good GM. QBs are a crapshoot, and he's brought a nice assortment of talent to the roster. My support (not that it means anything), however, is completely contingent on him fixing the OLine this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) No doubt the offensive line has been poorly handled from both a player personnel and a coaching standpoint. Considering how well the rest of the team has improved, especially due to free agency and trades, I want Whaley to stay. In regards to the offensive line I am willing to give the guy a break. Marrone was here and he was respected for his offensive line experience. Therefore it is really easy to assume that the "team" was offering more weight to Marrone's opinion of draft prospects and free agents in those positions. Obviously the "team" of people in charge of assessing player personnel (including Whaley) should have made better decisions. But, based on the fact that Marrone was the offensive line "guru", I can't help but find myself laying the majority of the blame at his feet for that whole o-line situation debacle. Edited January 6, 2015 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Because I hate the way people are out to fire anybody without a valid reason he brought in some good talent to bad it wasn't his coach of choice coaching them. He did get Watkins (and to honest this draft sucks no big names at all), he got a starting LB in the second who looks real promising, and a staring RT in the 7th, he also traded for a WR who has a knack for catching TDs ( M Williams) and an awesome backup DB who was originally brought in for Special Teams but played huge at DB when we needed him. He is not perfect but I don't see any reason to fire him now, let's see what he does this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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