Conflict Between Bills' Front Office and Marrone?

[Sisyphean Bills]

That is what I was working up to and hope others chime in.

 

Early on I seem to remember some conflict in Pittsburgh between Tomlin and the FO. Eventually, it seemed to get on track as the OC and others were weeded out and replaced a few times.

 

I don't think Pittsburgh is comparable. Pittsburgh has its system which comes down from its ownership--the Rooney family. Their process is ingrained into the fiber of who they are. They seek out players and coaches to mesh with that tradition (for the most part). Tomlin, to his great credit, did not try to fire Dick LeBeau and install the Dungy Tampa-2 when he was hired. Instead he focused on working within the established culture of winning. He had quick success in doing that.

 

The Bills lost their owner and the new one hasn't had time to figure it out. Russ Brandon has been the Bills "owner whisperer" and the face of recent "tradition". He has presided over the longest continuing playoff drought in the NFL. That isn't something coaches and football execs should contemplate trying to "mesh with". Getting the shop ready for sale and losing should no longer be the priority of the franchise's culture. Winning football games should be the priority.

[The Big Cat]

I'm the last guy to criticize coaches but Marrone just rubs me the right way.

 

I thought he was an out of the box thinker. He is the same conservative as every other veteran NFL coach.

 

Can someone give me an example of a creative offensive gameplan?

 

What do you consider "creative?" And which coaches have earned the right to be called "creative" in which games this year?

[Kelly the Dog]

Ha.

 

Seriously though, I don't see the "ego" in this snippet. I'm surprised that this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Which one? The one from the OP?

 

I totally agree. I'm with Marrone on this one. I think Orton probably gives the Bills the best chance to win this game, by a little, over Manuel. Coaches coach to win. He's not concerned with building for the future. I think he thinks there is a chance to win this game, as I do, although it's less than 50-50, and then beat the Raiders, and go into week 17 with a chance. That's what I want my coach to think.

 

GMs think differently. GM and coaches argue about players all the time. I think Marrone chose his words a little foolish, bringing this debate up, but I didn't think anything he said about Orton starting was wrong.

 

And this specific didn't sway my opinion of him one bit.

[bigK14094]

Marrone is right about EJ....and Orton is a whole lot better than EJ will (Likely) ever be. Marrone wouldn't still have a winning record with EJ at the helm. Of course, Marrone has made other mistakes, Hackett being the biggest......just like Chan Gailey picked the wrong DC's........of course, Marrone has done better than Gailey in picking DC's...first Petine, then Schwartz. In Chan's administration, neither of those two guys would have a cup of coffee in Buffalo. The thing is, Whaley's double down on Watkins was stated as a support EJ move.....got rid of the free route running Stevie (that was OK btw) The problem remains, EJ can't put the ball in the same zip code as the receivers, and the receivers know it. They just can't go public with that view. We have a real conflict here, and I think its possible Marrone will go, but Marrone is acutally more right than wrong......on a lot of things.

[The Big Cat]

Which one? The one from the OP?

 

I totally agree. I'm with Marrone on this one. I think Orton probably gives the Bills the best chance to win this game, by a little, over Manuel. Coaches coach to win. He's not concerned with building for the future. I think he thinks there is a chance to win this game, as I do, although it's less than 50-50, and then beat the Raiders, and go into week 17 with a chance. That's what I want my coach to think.

 

GMs think differently. GM and coaches argue about players all the time. I think Marrone chose his words a little foolish, bringing this debate up, but I didn't think anything he said about Orton starting was wrong.

 

And this specific didn't sway my opinion of him one bit.

 

On this we agree completely. Should we drop this Sunday then inexplicably drop one in Oakland, I would expect EJ to start in Foxboro. But not until then,

[Rivermont Mike]

Can someone give me an example of a creative offensive gameplan?

Well, there was the call for the bootleg/hook-slide with intentional loss to set up a more-manageable 4th and 3. Come on, man!

 

EDIT: GO BILLS!!!!

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rivermont Mike

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

What do you consider "creative?" And which coaches have earned the right to be called "creative" in which games this year?

 

Chip Kelly. Andy Reid who has a qb who can't complete passes to Wrs. The Fins switched their offense to allow Tannehill to run more. Just a few off the top of my head.

[FireChan]

What do you consider "creative?" And which coaches have earned the right to be called "creative" in which games this year?

 

Don't worry, he's the last guy to criticize coaches. That's why he made a topic calling for Marrone's head week 4.

 

Which one? The one from the OP?

 

I totally agree. I'm with Marrone on this one. I think Orton probably gives the Bills the best chance to win this game, by a little, over Manuel. Coaches coach to win. He's not concerned with building for the future. I think he thinks there is a chance to win this game, as I do, although it's less than 50-50, and then beat the Raiders, and go into week 17 with a chance. That's what I want my coach to think.

 

GMs think differently. GM and coaches argue about players all the time. I think Marrone chose his words a little foolish, bringing this debate up, but I didn't think anything he said about Orton starting was wrong.

 

And this specific didn't sway my opinion of him one bit.

 

Oh, from your post I thought this further validated the ego thing, my mistake.

[K-9]

I don't think Pittsburgh is comparable. Pittsburgh has its system which comes down from its ownership--the Rooney family. Their process is ingrained into the fiber of who they are. They seek out players and coaches to mesh with that tradition (for the most part). Tomlin, to his great credit, did not try to fire Dick LeBeau and install the Dungy Tampa-2 when he was hired. Instead he focused on working within the established culture of winning. He had quick success in doing that.

 

The Bills lost their owner and the new one hasn't had time to figure it out. Russ Brandon has been the Bills "owner whisperer" and the face of recent "tradition". He has presided over the longest continuing playoff drought in the NFL. That isn't something coaches and football execs should contemplate trying to "mesh with". Getting the shop ready for sale and losing should no longer be the priority of the franchise's culture. Winning football games should be the priority.

 

This is incorrect. Butler, Donahoe (especially with his unprecedented power and autonomy), and Levy all preceded Brandon as GM from 1999-2008 when Brandon became GM. And even when he was GM he deferred personnel decisions to others.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Simon]

Simon, my good man, I beg to differ on this point. Whaley was part and parcel to the hiring process. He and Brandon interviewed Marrone extensively in Arizona, along with several other candidates.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

He was also "involved" with drafting CJ Spiller in the first round.

By no means does it mean he agreed with it.

[The Big Cat]

Chip Kelly. Andy Reid who has a qb who can't complete passes to Wrs. The Fins switched their offense to allow Tannehill to run more. Just a few off the top of my head.

 

What does Chip Kelly do that's creative? I'd like to know what you think.

 

The Chiefs offense runs through Jamal Charles, which of our players is as good as he is?

 

The Phins did nothing of the sort.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

What does Chip Kelly do that's creative? I'd like to know what you think.

 

The Chiefs offense runs through Jamal Charles, which of our players is as good as he is?

 

The Phins did nothing of the sort.

 

Dude, I'm done. It isn't worth it. You make every excuse and fail to concede any different viewpoints.

 

You win. Marrone is a good and creative coach. We're lucky to have him. Just like we were to have another one of your favorites, Jauron.

[Kellyto83TD]

I agree but I also think Marrone's pride won't let him go back to EJ. It would be admitting that Orton was not enough of an upgrade.

 

I was all for Marrone when he got hired. College guy and it was different. He promised a lot of things and he seems like every retrend coach we've had. But he acts like he is Belichick when he is a guy who's best accomplishment is the Pinstripe Bowl.

 

Whaley >>> Marrone and it's not even close. This is a very attractive job with the talent we have. Get a real offensive mind who has a track record of developing QBs and getting the most out of his players. We can do so much better than Marrone.

 

Actually common football sense is what keeps him from going back to EJ. He knows EJ isnt ever going to be a quality starter, why waste anymore time on him? Whaley >>> Marrone? How do you figure? The guy was a major factor in drafting a QB bust (EJ), traded away next years first for a WR who from a talent level we could have gotten comperable staying in our current draft spot. Traded away and ran up our cap on a WR that was just "cut" and then traded away a 4th for RB that hardly ever plays.

 

Sorry Whaley needs to go as well

 

Dude, I'm done. It isn't worth it. You make every excuse and fail to concede any different viewpoints.

 

 

 

So says the biggest EJ homer in the Universe! Pot....meet kettle.

[Kelly the Dog]

Can you be more specific? (I ask that in all seriousness!)

I was actually serious with that response. It's been the totality of the sequence of events since he started, and an evolving perspective and position on him. I like him to some degree, and think he has done well in a lot of ways. I used to like him more. I used to think it was impossible for him to be that petty, then I thought it was improbable, then I thought well, maybe, and now I think it's entirely possible.

 

It comes from the MW situation, the arguments with Whaley, watching his press conferences, my conversation with Whaley, the St Doug stuff I didn't used to believe. The Urbik and Pears situation. The stubbornness (or my perceived stubbornness) of this offense. The stuff the players say. And a few texts and blurbs from reliable sources.

[Fixxxer]

I still don't see a conflict here. Marrone will play whoever gives him the best chance to win until winning no longer matters to his boss, the talent evaluator. Did anyone think otherwise?

 

Lot of wishful thinking and speculation in this thread, which is fine but I don't see it. Joe must still have a sore ego after Marroner rolled his eyes in the press conference.

[K-9]

He was also "involved" with drafting CJ Spiller in the first round.

By no means does it mean he agreed with it.

 

The Spiller reference is a real stretch. Not even in Whaley's purview at the time. Spiller was a Buddy/Gailey pick all the way.

 

By saying Whaley didn't agree with the hiring of Marrone, I have visions of Brandon, Buddy, and Whaley sitting in that Arizona hotel room and Whaley pounding his shoe on the table in defiance. Anyway, it's a funny image.

 

All I know is this: Whaley had been acting as defacto GM BEFORE the end of the 2012 season. The succession plan for Buddy was already in motion and Whaley had assumed a lot of his responsibilities as Asst. GM during that season. After that season, Whaley played a big role in the search for a HC and spent that entire week in Arizona interviewing several candidates. He wasn't a wall flower at those meetings; he asked questions about philosophies, potential DCs, OCs, and other assistants. The Marrone hiring has always been presented as a consensus decision by those involved in the process of which Whaley was a big part of.

 

None of that means that the first thing Whaley doesn't do after the season is schitcan Marrone. That could very well happen.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Magox]

 

 

So says the biggest EJ homer in the Universe! Pot....meet kettle.

 

[Kelly the Dog]

The Spiller reference is a real stretch. Not even in Whaley's purview at the time. Spiller was a Buddy/Gailey pick all the way.

 

By saying Whaley didn't agree with the hiring of Marrone, I have visions of Brandon, Buddy, and Whaley sitting in that Arizona hotel room and Whaley pounding his shoe on the table in defiance. Anyway, it's a funny image.

 

All I know is this: Whaley had been acting as defacto GM BEFORE the end of the 2012 season. The succession plan for Buddy was already in motion and Whaley had assumed a lot of his responsibilities as Asst. GM during that season. After that season, Whaley played a big role in the search for a HC and spent that entire week in Arizona interviewing several candidates. He wasn't a wall flower at those meetings; he asked questions about philosophies, potential DCs, OCs, and other assistants. The Marrone hiring has always been presented as a consensus decision by those involved in the process of which Whaley was a big part of.

 

None of that means that the first thing Whaley doesn't do after the season is schitcan Marrone. That could very well happen.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Agree in fact as well as theory. He was a main player. But all four of those guys did all of that: Nix, Whaley, Russ and Overdorf. Whaley has a different perspective than the other three (although close to Nix). But remember, they wanted Chip Kelly. There were clear reports both in front of and behind the scenes that they liked Wisenhunt. Whaley said all four of those guys got together and had an idea of what kind of coach they wanted and Marrone fit them all. I always assumed that Whaley was all in favor of it but I'm not so sure anymore. It's impossible to be sure about any of this.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[FireChan]

Agree in fact as well as theory. He was a main player. But all four of those guys did all of that: Nix, Whaley, Russ and Overdorf. Whaley has a different perspective than the other three (although close to Nix). But remember, they wanted Chip Kelly. There were clear reports both in front of and behind the scenes that they liked Wisenhunt. Whaley said all four of those guys got together and had an idea of what kind of coach they wanted and Marrone fit them all. I always assumed that Whaley was all in favor of it but I'm not so sure anymore. It's impossible to be sure about any of this.

 

Even if he was in favor, things change. If Marrone isn't who Whaley thought he was, he's goner.

[Kelly the Dog]

Even if he was in favor, things change. If Marrone isn't who Whaley thought he was, he's goner.

Very good point. I'm a big believer in first impressions are not at all the best indicator. You don't really know someone until things go wrong, not in the honeymoon stage when everything is easy. And people do change with power. Neither of them had been in this position before.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Kelly the Dog