Officials Massaging the Game Thread

[34-78-83]

It used to be more obvious, and I'm not sure which crews it was or anything.... But the Pats used to often "get the calls" throughout the competitive portion of games, and then later on when the outcome was already decided they'd get the majority of the penalties. That way at the end of the game it often appeared even, but wasn't.

[ProcessAccepted]

Just saw Milke Jackson got fined $8K for the headbutt the refs missed in the game. Too bad that the ref blocked his view with his own hand. Not sure why we get called for taunting and big name teams can get away with this during the game.

[Prickly Pete]

Just saw Milke Jackson got fined $8K for the headbutt the refs missed in the game. Too bad that the ref blocked his view with his own hand. Not sure why we get called for taunting and big name teams can get away with this during the game.

 

The one that really bothered me was when Emmanuel Sanders jumps up and dances around after drawing 2 penalties. That was definitely "taunting".

[Clippers of Nfl]

The bolded invalidates the rest of your argument. How can you sit there and say they have to even it out when those 2 teams have been called for MORE penalties than the BIlls? No logic at all.

It's not like that every year. Denver and *pat most penalized teams. That for sure does not happen.

But whatever, my main point and Im sticking with it:

Favored teams have to be penalized somewhat to make it appear fair.

 

I'm the first to admit the officiating is not what it used to be. I don't see how this is done to favor certain teams and help them win. There is far too much for the league to lose by getting caught knowing their officials influence outcomes of games.

NEW ENGLAD GUY LEG WHIPS KARATE JUJITSU'S SOMEONE ON A PRIME TIME GAME and does not get called.

Do I think the league is paying the zebras to cheat? No.

Do I think it's a mental thing, physcological thing, afraid to call out hall of famers, human error...or who knows how it happens. But does it happen? Yes.

 

I see it in basketball. LESS. But i see it there too. Specially popular is "making it up for blown calls". "Guys, we messed up", so "let's give it to them on the next one" this happens in soccer too.

 

Just saw Milke Jackson got fined $8K for the headbutt the refs missed in the game. Too bad that the ref blocked his view with his own hand. Not sure why we get called for taunting and big name teams can get away with this during the game.

The guy is right there. He saw it. But probably thought

 

A. Screw it, it's the bills. Im not calling it.

b. The head butt was not that hard.

C. They both did something.

D. It's the bills, I'm not going to be that guy

[Gray Beard]

 

Do I think the league is paying the zebras to cheat? No.

Do I think it's a mental thing, physcological thing, afraid to call out hall of famers, human error...or who knows how it happens. But does it happen? Yes.

 

I agree with this thinking. Refs are intimidated or something when it comes to some teams, but not others. The Bills are somewhat undisciplined, which makes things worse.

[SoulMan]

The NFL is fixed. If I could shake this Bills chromosome (which I can't). I wouldn't watch at all.

[peterpan]

Sammys 5th catch, 11 or 12 mins left in the 4th.

 

Please re-watch it if you can and explain to me how there was not an illegal contact penalty AND a PI penalty thrown on that pass. And why wasn't there another 2 or 3 illegal contact calls on the rest of that drive???

 

Litterally every fan knows that you cant tackle Tom Brady as hard as any other WR in the league. Its illegal. Everyone knows it too.

[Beerball]

The Bills are playing another one of the NFL's darling's this weekend in the Packers. You can bet there will be some game changing calls or non-calls, the majority of which, if not all, will go against the Bills. I'm talking phantom PI's, unnecessary roughness, unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. There ought to be a thread for fans to vent the calls.

That's a good idea, we've never had one of those.

[VermontFan]

Just did a little bit of cursory digging into penalty stats, and what I found is interesting, to say the least. Not that it tells the whole story, but it paints an intriguing picture. I'm planning on doing a more thorough analysis when I get the chance, so I apologize if you think I'm "cherry picking" data.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Basically I wanted to see if teams like Seattle, New England, and Denver recived a higher percentage of "big calls" than the Bills. Because I don't have time right now to go through all the penalties, I went with three that are often seen as drive extenders/killers: defensive PI, offensive PI, and defensive holding. The teams I looked at were the top five for most penalized (SEA, TB, NE, DEN, BUF). Not the most scientific method, I know, but I plan to look at the whole league eventually.

 

The league average on the season for these three penalties is: 15% of total penalties; 21% of total penalty yards.

 

Out of the penalty totals for each team, these three calls represent...

 

Called against

SEA: 15% of total calls against; 22% of total yards against

TB: 11% of total calls against; 9% of total yards against

DEN: 16% of total calls against; 19% of total yards against

NE: 22% of total calls against; 23% of total yards against

BUF: 18% of total calls against; 28% of total yards against

 

Called for

SEA: 21% of total calls for; 27% of total yards for

TB: 10% of total calls for; 12% of total yards for

DEN: 22% of total calls for; 29% of total yards for

NE: 26% of total calls for; 38% of total yards for

BUF: 11% of total calls for; 11% of total yards for

 

So yeah, make of that what you will. Clearly these momentum swinging calls are not going in the Bills' favor nearly as often as they are for SEA, NE, and DEN. The Bills commit these penalties at a rate higher than the league average, while the three big dogs are hovering right around it. I'm not saying refs are fixing games, I'm just looking at numbers. I plan on looking at a wider section of calls across the whole league, and maybe, if I have time, factor in down and quarter. I know this doesn't tell the whole story and there are a myriad of other factors to look at, but you can't say it's not intriguing.

Edited December 13, 2014 by VermontFan

[34-78-83]

Just did a little bit of cursory digging into penalty stats, and what I found is interesting, to say the least. Not that it tells the whole story, but it paints an intriguing picture. I'm planning on doing a more thorough analysis when I get the chance, so I apologize if you think I'm "cherry picking" data.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Basically I wanted to see if teams like Seattle, New England, and Denver recived a higher percentage of "big calls" than the Bills. Because I don't have time right now to go through all the penalties, I went with three that are often seen as drive extenders/killers: defensive PI, offensive PI, and defensive holding. The teams I looked at were the top five for most penalized (SEA, TB, NE, DEN, BUF). Not the most scientific method, I know, but I plan to look at the whole league eventually.

 

The league average on the season for these three penalties is: 15% of total penalties; 21% of total penalty yards.

 

Out of the penalty totals for each team, these three calls represent...

 

Called against

SEA: 15% of total calls against; 22% of total yards against

TB: 11% of total calls against; 9% of total yards against

DEN: 16% of total calls against; 19% of total yards against

NE: 22% of total calls against; 23% of total yards against

BUF: 18% of total calls against; 28% of total yards against

 

Called for

SEA: 21% of total calls for; 27% of total yards for

TB: 10% of total calls for; 12% of total yards for

DEN: 22% of total calls for; 29% of total yards for

NE: 26% of total calls for; 38% of total yards for

BUF: 11% of total calls for; 11% of total yards for

 

So yeah, make of that what you will. Clearly these momentum swinging calls are not going in the Bills' favor nearly as often as they are for SEA, NE, and DEN. The Bills commit these penalties at a rate higher than the league average, while the three big dogs are hovering right around it. I'm not saying refs are fixing games, I'm just looking at numbers. I plan on looking at a wider section of calls across the whole league, and maybe, if I have time, factor in down and quarter. I know this doesn't tell the whole story and there are a myriad of other factors to look at, but you can't say it's not intriguing.

 

Interesting stuff...

It might be hard to gather, but it would also be interesting to see what the difference in these numbers are when the game is in the balance and is still competitive.

[stevewin]

Just did a little bit of cursory digging into penalty stats, and what I found is interesting, to say the least. Not that it tells the whole story, but it paints an intriguing picture. I'm planning on doing a more thorough analysis when I get the chance, so I apologize if you think I'm "cherry picking" data.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Basically I wanted to see if teams like Seattle, New England, and Denver recived a higher percentage of "big calls" than the Bills. Because I don't have time right now to go through all the penalties, I went with three that are often seen as drive extenders/killers: defensive PI, offensive PI, and defensive holding. The teams I looked at were the top five for most penalized (SEA, TB, NE, DEN, BUF). Not the most scientific method, I know, but I plan to look at the whole league eventually.

 

The league average on the season for these three penalties is: 15% of total penalties; 21% of total penalty yards.

 

Out of the penalty totals for each team, these three calls represent...

 

Called against

SEA: 15% of total calls against; 22% of total yards against

TB: 11% of total calls against; 9% of total yards against

DEN: 16% of total calls against; 19% of total yards against

NE: 22% of total calls against; 23% of total yards against

BUF: 18% of total calls against; 28% of total yards against

 

Called for

SEA: 21% of total calls for; 27% of total yards for

TB: 10% of total calls for; 12% of total yards for

DEN: 22% of total calls for; 29% of total yards for

NE: 26% of total calls for; 38% of total yards for

BUF: 11% of total calls for; 11% of total yards for

 

So yeah, make of that what you will. Clearly these momentum swinging calls are not going in the Bills' favor nearly as often as they are for SEA, NE, and DEN. The Bills commit these penalties at a rate higher than the league average, while the three big dogs are hovering right around it. I'm not saying refs are fixing games, I'm just looking at numbers. I plan on looking at a wider section of calls across the whole league, and maybe, if I have time, factor in down and quarter. I know this doesn't tell the whole story and there are a myriad of other factors to look at, but you can't say it's not intriguing.

 

Offensive holding calls are also often huge drive killers that are in the refs' toolbox and at their disposal to call (or in the case of the Pats*, not call) on every play. How many times are huge gains wiped out by phantom holding calls, then instead of being up the field with first down its suddenly 1st or 2nd and 20, drive and momentum killed. These are so dangerous because the are so sneaky subjective and many times away from the play, and "can be called every play" up to the discretion of the refs.

 

Not sure how possible it is, but a most interesting Stat would be on 3rd down, which teams benefit from receiving a 1st down resulting from a penalty on the other team, and which teams are penalized the most on 3rd down to give a first down. These are the sometimes critical game changing situations that the bills seem to be on the short end of so often (and teams like the Pats* seem to benefit from so often).

 

Of course, as has mentioned, the point in the game certain penalties are called is another huge factor. Drive changing calls at the first part of games can change the whole make of games and put teams in holes, then when the game is in hand, the refs can 'even it out' by making calls against the other team (which could include those mentioned above), By that time, even if it gives a first down etc it does not have the same impact as the earlier calls since the game is already in hand. This is of course almost impossible to quantify which is another reason it is so hard to measure the performance and objectivity of the refs from stats alone.

 

[PO'14]

Anyone remember the SJ13 no catch against the Bengals a few years ago. The ref that was 5 yards away called it a catch, the ref that was 20 yards away came running in and said no catch. Then they went to replay and there wasnt enough evidence ( YES THERE WAS ) to overturn the call.

 

I hate SJ13 for making a simple catch look difficult and the refs for stealing the game.

 

Anyone remember when the ref threw a flag for holding on Kyle Williams? The flag hit him right in the facemask. Then the ref picked it up and said "There is no penalty for holding on the play"

 

 

WHAT?

 

How about the time Watkins was getting raped by the defender who was not even facing the ball?

 

Nonetheless, Other than Detroit, the Bills have not beat a good team this year.

[nucci]

The Bills are playing another one of the NFL's darling's this weekend in the Packers. You can bet there will be some game changing calls or non-calls, the majority of which, if not all, will go against the Bills. I'm talking phantom PI's, unnecessary roughness, unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. There ought to be a thread for fans to vent the calls.

It happens in every game. I watch Red Zone channel along with Bills game. Refs are terrible league wide. You just notice more watching only the Bills.

[bowery4]

Seattle, NE and Denver are ahead of the Bills in penalties. so how

is this a conspiracy?

Ahead in penalties, is not even saying ahead in yards penalized (pats* game 11 penaties and yes more in garbage time for I think 60 or 70 yards, Bills 10 for 110, if I remember right and then we have the Den game....). That alone makes the arguement invalid. Add to it the other variables mentioned above and it is obvious that some games are changed by refs making bad calls, all the time and at specific times against certain teams. Listen I agree the Bills have done crappistic this season on stupid mistakes and bad O.

 

It is significant that we all see this going on all around the league and it is obviously happening. I have quit watching other NFL games this season because the refs have been so bad that the games just lose thier entertainment value (and I did that like 6 or 7 weeks ago). I think it isn't a but it should be investigated, football is worse because of it. Fairness counts toward loyalty and confidence even in a sport that is for entertainment purposes.

 

The bolded invalidates the rest of your argument. How can you sit there and say they have to even it out when those 2 teams have been called for MORE penalties than the BIlls? No logic at all.

 

I know there is logic in what he was saying there, more penalties doesn't consider the context of the game and what kind of and yardage on said penalties.

[xsoldier54]

Tell Marrone to have his players disciplined and they won't happen. It is the lack of discipline that causes these penalties not some crazy conspiracy theory. It was almost embarrassing to be at the Denver game on Sunday.

Discipline will not help bad calls. You're right the Denver game was an embarrassment. For the officials! That was quite possibly the worst officiated game I have ever witnessed. No amount of discipline would have prevented those calls.

[jethro_tull]

Just did a little bit of cursory digging into penalty stats, and what I found is interesting, to say the least. Not that it tells the whole story, but it paints an intriguing picture. I'm planning on doing a more thorough analysis when I get the chance, so I apologize if you think I'm "cherry picking" data.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Basically I wanted to see if teams like Seattle, New England, and Denver recived a higher percentage of "big calls" than the Bills. Because I don't have time right now to go through all the penalties, I went with three that are often seen as drive extenders/killers: defensive PI, offensive PI, and defensive holding. The teams I looked at were the top five for most penalized (SEA, TB, NE, DEN, BUF). Not the most scientific method, I know, but I plan to look at the whole league eventually.

 

The league average on the season for these three penalties is: 15% of total penalties; 21% of total penalty yards.

 

Out of the penalty totals for each team, these three calls represent...

 

Called against

SEA: 15% of total calls against; 22% of total yards against

TB: 11% of total calls against; 9% of total yards against

DEN: 16% of total calls against; 19% of total yards against

NE: 22% of total calls against; 23% of total yards against

BUF: 18% of total calls against; 28% of total yards against

 

Called for

SEA: 21% of total calls for; 27% of total yards for

TB: 10% of total calls for; 12% of total yards for

DEN: 22% of total calls for; 29% of total yards for

NE: 26% of total calls for; 38% of total yards for

BUF: 11% of total calls for; 11% of total yards for

 

So yeah, make of that what you will. Clearly these momentum swinging calls are not going in the Bills' favor nearly as often as they are for SEA, NE, and DEN. The Bills commit these penalties at a rate higher than the league average, while the three big dogs are hovering right around it. I'm not saying refs are fixing games, I'm just looking at numbers. I plan on looking at a wider section of calls across the whole league, and maybe, if I have time, factor in down and quarter. I know this doesn't tell the whole story and there are a myriad of other factors to look at, but you can't say it's not intriguing.

interesting and depressing at the same time.

 

The NFL is fixed. If I could shake this Bills chromosome (which I can't). I wouldn't watch at all.

having had these thoughts at times the question becomes why doesn't the truth come out- at least a peak under the curtain. everything comes out- even the president getting a b j in the privacy of his own office or classified information posessed by the national security administration.

if the nfl were rigged i would have to believe it would be exposed- especially in this day and age. someone would be a whistle blower for the sake of the game.

the other thing is risk vs. reward. the nfl is riding high and does not need to rig games. if something like this were exposed, the league would be tarnished for a long time.

flip side is that there are huge sums of money bet each week.

[3rdand12]

Seattle, NE and Denver are ahead of the Bills in penalties. so how

is this a conspiracy?

Its maybe not the quantity of penalties. Its the timing and how it affects the momentum or outcome of the game.

Since you are defending the issue.

I don't look at penalties blindly. Many teams have drive killers and momentum swinging calls.

But i do think it's clear that The Bills must be aware of the possibilty of a slanted perspective and probably should be extra diligent.

Because head coaches will use that to their favor.

Last week Bills played angry and aggressive. I was quite proud of them !

Just gotta slobberknock knock at the right times.

The head butt at Smith got no call but a fine.

The Hughes helmet slap to his own teamate got a penalty.

And Then Emmanuel Sanders flaunts the advantage in front of the whole world. HAHA FOOLED YOU ! Best hit Gilmore ever made. So now he has to think about backing off ?

Just saying. Its not cut and dry and its not quantity , it is the quality ( ? ) of the call along with the timing within the game.

thats My only point Mark.

 

There were (2) calls in the Denver game that had ZERO to do with coaching discipline. They were total non-calls that the refs blew.

Each call came on critical 3rd down plays and resulted in the broncos retaining possession and in the red zone with a first down.

These had a huge impact on the outcome and in close games like that the bills cannot afford that against the NFL elite.

Not that the Bills are ready to compete for a super bowl, but I am livid nonetheless that marginal, questionable if not phantom calls are against the bills in super critical situations that result in huge advantage for the other team.

The refs in the denver game totally sucked and I am still pissed about it.

This is my gripe also. And i am still fairly pissed

 

I'm the first to admit the officiating is not what it used to be. I don't see how this is done to favor certain teams and help them win. There is far too much for the league to lose by getting caught knowing their officials influence outcomes of games.

I agree with these points Mark .

 

I think I read somewhere that on one of the run backs, a bronco player chop blocked one of ours. So one of our players got pissed which was the unnecessary roughness penalty or whatever. Should our players display discipline? Absolutely. The point is though, that the Denver player wasn't called on the chop block. How often are they not called? It is openly admitted that the NFL is widely inconsistent. You say our players should show discipline? Maybe they are just as exasperated at the inconsistent officiating as us? Maybe they are getting frustrated because football is a rain of yellow that widely affects the outcome of games.

Graham

 

That's a good idea, we've never had one of those.

Its worth considerering.

We could all twenty 2 it and have our own coaches review.

Its not just the penalty sometimes as its a reaction to the uncalled penalty that gets the retribution and then the flag

ala Corey Graham and Jerry Hughes. at least we could vent and get to the heart of the matter ?

 

Just did a little bit of cursory digging into penalty stats, and what I found is interesting, to say the least. Not that it tells the whole story, but it paints an intriguing picture. I'm planning on doing a more thorough analysis when I get the chance, so I apologize if you think I'm "cherry picking" data.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Basically I wanted to see if teams like Seattle, New England, and Denver recived a higher percentage of "big calls" than the Bills. Because I don't have time right now to go through all the penalties, I went with three that are often seen as drive extenders/killers: defensive PI, offensive PI, and defensive holding. The teams I looked at were the top five for most penalized (SEA, TB, NE, DEN, BUF). Not the most scientific method, I know, but I plan to look at the whole league eventually.

 

The league average on the season for these three penalties is: 15% of total penalties; 21% of total penalty yards.

 

Out of the penalty totals for each team, these three calls represent...

 

Called against

SEA: 15% of total calls against; 22% of total yards against

TB: 11% of total calls against; 9% of total yards against

DEN: 16% of total calls against; 19% of total yards against

NE: 22% of total calls against; 23% of total yards against

BUF: 18% of total calls against; 28% of total yards against

 

Called for

SEA: 21% of total calls for; 27% of total yards for

TB: 10% of total calls for; 12% of total yards for

DEN: 22% of total calls for; 29% of total yards for

NE: 26% of total calls for; 38% of total yards for

BUF: 11% of total calls for; 11% of total yards for

 

So yeah, make of that what you will. Clearly these momentum swinging calls are not going in the Bills' favor nearly as often as they are for SEA, NE, and DEN. The Bills commit these penalties at a rate higher than the league average, while the three big dogs are hovering right around it. I'm not saying refs are fixing games, I'm just looking at numbers. I plan on looking at a wider section of calls across the whole league, and maybe, if I have time, factor in down and quarter. I know this doesn't tell the whole story and there are a myriad of other factors to look at, but you can't say it's not intriguing.

Dude

That is one Hell of a first post.

Welcome to Pandoras box !! lol

 

It happens in every game. I watch Red Zone channel along with Bills game. Refs are terrible league wide. You just notice more watching only the Bills.

I believe every bit of that.

we are just trying to decide what kind of terrible : )

Edited December 13, 2014 by 3rdand12

[NewEra]

wow look another thread about officiating. Good lord. Mods can we just have one big giant whinefest about the officials for the entire season instead of seeing new ones pop up every week? This makes our fanbase sound like nothing but crybabies, just win the damn game and blame it on who is truly to blame. the players. Or our crappy coaches.

 

Don't read it. You don't have to, you understand that right? To click, or not to click. That is the question. Refs suck, it's obvious. You disagree? You think you're a realist? No, you're blind.

 

 

 

Have you not seen the main board with the multiple threads dedicated to all of those other topics?

 

Us Bills fans all know exactly what the major in-house problems are with the team. The threads complaining about the officiating are completely justified, imo. No one is saying it is the "only reason" we are losing, but in a sport where an entire game can come down to 1 or 2 plays, fair officiaiting is extremely important. We've had drives killed in close games because of bad calls. Of course, we've certainly had drives killed because of penalties our players actually committed, and that is a problem they need to work on. But all we are asking is that the games are called consistently and fairly, and that is not even close to the current state of NFL officiating. There is plenty of room for discusion about all of the problems you've listed, and it occurs here every day.

 

This, this and more this.

[NewEra]

 

 

 

 

 

Seattle, NE and Denver are ahead of the Bills in penalties. so how

is this a conspiracy?

Because the commit way more penalties than we do.

 

It's not the total sum of the penalties that is disturbing. It's the situations in which the penalties are called. Big momentum crushing situations. Plenty on 3rd down in which the infraction is invisible to the eye after re watching it 10 times. Penalties called on plays that our players played perfectly. If you don't see that this, get new glasses or start watching games, because you obviously don't watch. My best friend watches every bills game with me. He's a niner fan. He thinks the bad calls against buffalo are blatant and obvious....for the last 10 years he's been watching. Is ridiculously. It's even more ridiculous that some of you are blind to this.

 

I love the people that dig up stats to show that the officials aren't making obviously bad calls vs the Billsc. Stats show NOTHING. Watch the game. Waaaaaaatch the gaaaaaaaame people. How many 3rd down penalties did the refs call on the pats when they were within 1 score to give the opponents a 1st down. How many during blowouts? It's the timing of the calls that can effect the game. STATS, tell nothing of the sort.

Edited December 13, 2014 by NewEra

[VermontFan]

That is one Hell of a first post.

Welcome to Pandoras box !! lol

 

Haha, thanks! I knew I might be opening a can of worms...

 

Offensive holding calls are also often huge drive killers that are in the refs' toolbox and at their disposal to call (or in the case of the Pats*, not call) on every play. How many times are huge gains wiped out by phantom holding calls, then instead of being up the field with first down its suddenly 1st or 2nd and 20, drive and momentum killed. These are so dangerous because the are so sneaky subjective and many times away from the play, and "can be called every play" up to the discretion of the refs.

 

Not sure how possible it is, but a most interesting Stat would be on 3rd down, which teams benefit from receiving a 1st down resulting from a penalty on the other team, and which teams are penalized the most on 3rd down to give a first down. These are the sometimes critical game changing situations that the bills seem to be on the short end of so often (and teams like the Pats* seem to benefit from so often).

 

Of course, as has mentioned, the point in the game certain penalties are called is another huge factor. Drive changing calls at the first part of games can change the whole make of games and put teams in holes, then when the game is in hand, the refs can 'even it out' by making calls against the other team (which could include those mentioned above), By that time, even if it gives a first down etc it does not have the same impact as the earlier calls since the game is already in hand. This is of course almost impossible to quantify which is another reason it is so hard to measure the performance and objectivity of the refs from stats alone.

 

Yeah, I wish there was a comprehensive list showing whether or not a big gain was wiped out by a penalty, but there's not, and short of going through every game and marking them all down, there's really no way to find out. Holding is definitely a big one, and when I do get around to doing a more thorough analysis (likely once the season's over), it will definitley be factored in in some respect.

Edited December 13, 2014 by VermontFan