Marrone Hackett Seal Their Fate

[34-78-83]

Completely disagree.

 

 

 

Well, I had hoped to see a miracle today... but I didn't expect to see someone actually ask for more OC. Wonders never cease.

Well he is correct and seems to have likely either played or coached the game called tackle football at some level the way his posts read today atleast. Or maybe he's just studied the game more than the average Joe. IDK 1st I've seen of him really

[Pondslider]

No. The worst thing you can do is give Peyton Manning the ball on our 20 yard line, and have him score another TD, or merely a FG....

 

...which would have sealed our fate...

 

...regardles of the time on the clock.

 

The game would have ended the exact same way as far as the only meaningful statistic. They lose either way.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Pondslider

[Deranged Rhino]

Well he is correct and seems to have likely either played or coached the game called tackle football at some level the way his posts read today atleast. Or maybe he's just studied the game more than the average Joe. IDK 1st I've seen of him really

 

 

The game would have ended the exact same way.

 

Thank you. It's the correct call to punt 9 times out of 10 in that situation. This was that one time it wasn't correct to punt.

[Jkgobills]

Hackett was on my s$&t list for a while. Then I stepped back and realized that:

 

1. Our starting QB was effectively retired and on a couch Sept 1st

2. Our top two RBs got hurt in the same game. FJax has returned, but his legs clearly aren't what they once were

3. Our starting guards weren't supposed to be our starting guards

4. Our Top 3 WRs have very little NFL experience

 

 

Then I decided that his game plans are still managing to move the ball, score some points and have us in a position to win some games. Despite the limitations of depth, talent, and experience.

[34-78-83]

 

I must have missed something from prior to today?

[OCinBuffalo]

Empiracally Obtuse? Orton threw for 355 because we were down all game and he had to throw.

So, does throwing for 355 yards against at top 5 D, seal his fate? Does Hacket calling the plays that produced those our offensive stats: 415 total yards, 4.6 yards a carry, 5.4 yards per offensive play, even though his QB threw 2 awful INTs, seal his fate?

 

What the F is going on here? Show me a JP Losman stat line, or a Mike Mularkey trick play for -20 yards, and then you can talk about fate-sealing. M-kay?

Stats can be reflected to support any argument.

Which by definition means they can be used to support logical/correct arguments, like mine above. See it?

We lost because our offense couldnt get it done. Blame the QB, blame the line, blame execution, blame the refs, blame the Rb... But bottom line when this single area holds the Bills back almost every game the buck must stop at the coaches who do not get the right talent combined with the right playcalling to win.

I see, we are now blaming everybody else, as well as the coaches, in a thread that you started called "Marrone and Hackett Seal Their Fate"?

 

I wonder: did the ref who first called a head shot on Gilmore, and pussied out with a ridiculous PI call, rather than picking up the flag, seal his fate?

 

The coaches aren't responsible for getting the talent. That's the GM/Scout's job.

 

Jesus. For those of you who didn't know what the words "empircally" or "obtuse" meant before reading this? Well, now you know.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

I must have missed something from prior to today?

 

About 7,593 posts...

[coltrane34]

If these coaches embrace the "new metrix" as much as they claim then they would go for almost every fourth down. They wouldn't dress two kickers and we would see many more Brady like fourth down QB sneeks. They talk innovation and coach like the dinosaurs.

[Deranged Rhino]

The coaches aren't responsible for getting the talent. That's the GM/Scout's job.

 

And Whaley has -- but there's no accounting for Marrone's decision to keep proven playmakers inactive.

[DukeyBomb]

I'm going to have to blame this one simply on the quarterback here. Orton has not shown the urgency in the past 5/6 games like he did before. I saw urgency on that last drive though but why does it only have to come in spurts like that? I want a team and QB to show it on EVERY play. Orton is not good enough, I was calling for Manuel to come in almost half the game it felt like.

 

Oh... And I want Marrone and Hackett to stay another year. I also hope Manuel starts next year over Orton.

[Pondslider]

If these coaches embrace the "new metrix" as much as they claim then they would go for almost every fourth down. They wouldn't dress two kickers and we would see many more Brady like fourth down QB sneeks. They talk innovation and coach like the dinosaurs.

 

The best play they ran all year was the Orton TD dive. Short yardage situation, no hesitation, snap the ball, catch the defense off guard dive forward and get the yard. It was so great and out of character that it makes me think Orton improvised it and the coaches had nothing to do with it.

[PolishDave]

Marrone and Hackett and Pettine/Schwartz have made the Bills relevant in December(and we still have a 41.6% chance if we win out) for the first time in 10 years.

 

And that means they've sealed their fate? :lol: Yet another dude trying to disprove the "Bills fans are the most knowledgeable in the NFL" adage.

 

Seriously. The go in as 9.5 dogs, and not only cover, but make it a game after making all sorts of execution(not coaching) errors, and you're talking about 4th down calls? If Chandler goes up and gets the ball on 4th and 6? This is a different game. That was a great call, and we have to expect Chandler to make that play. Meanwhile with the game on the line, you want us to take a chance that if we miss, we have 0 chance, rather than punt, and still have a chance? We scored a TD right after punting.

 

So tired of this broken record/non-thinking about Marrone/Hackett. The man has done a hell of a job with at best average(right now) QBs and losing both his stud RBs for much of the season, and is playing WRs who haven't played for 3 years(used to be the rule that it takes that long for a WR to learn the game).

 

I don't know where in WNY this non-thinking originates, but if I find it, I will respond. Perhaps I will pay a farmer to drop 1 ton of manure there.

 

 

This is what I mean when I say "The Bills are not your problem".

 

EDIT: We go in and give the best team in the league, and the best QB to ever play the game, hell, and his worst rating in 6 years, and that seals fates? Patently retarded.

Typical Bills fan mentality of the last decade plus.....acceptable being a loser. Yay! We lost but didn't get blown out! Yay! Let's celebrate.

 

This offense is an embarrassment.

 

This offense could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch better than a Chippewa hooker.

[OCinBuffalo]

Completely disagree.

Then you disagree with fact, because that is the worst thing that could have happened*. Great. Guess what? I disagree with gravity. That's right. For today, gravity simply does not exist, because I disagree with it.

 

* Bon Jovi being the new owner remains the worst thing overall, that could have happened.

Well, I had hoped to see a miracle today... but I didn't expect to see someone actually ask for more OC. Wonders never cease.

Hehehehehhe. You just don't like it because I apply the same exact method to football as I do PPP, and once again, you find yourself on the schit end of that stick. I present the real facts, not the made up/wishful/suit my agenda facts, and then construct logical arguments based on them.

 

It causes clowns to lose many arguments to me, like you are doing, right now.

[coltrane34]

So, does throwing for 355 yards against at top 5 D, seal his fate? Does Hacket calling the plays that produced those our offensive stats: 415 total yards, 4.6 yards a carry, 5.4 yards per offensive play, even though his QB threw 2 awful INTs, seal his fate?

 

What the F is going on here? Show me a JP Losman stat line, or a Mike Mularkey trick play for -20 yards, and then you can talk about fate-sealing. M-kay?

 

The only stat line that matters is the same for all. Another loss

[Big C]

The best play they ran all year was the Orton TD dive. Short yardage situation, no hesitation, snap the ball, catch the defense off guard dive forward and get the yard. It was so great and out of character that it makes me think Orton improvised it and the coaches had nothing to do with it.

 

They seemed to be moving with no sense of urgency all quarter. That was a great situational call, absolutely. Would have liked to see more hurry up in the 4th.

[Pondslider]

They seemed to be moving with no sense of urgency all quarter. That was a great situational call, absolutely. Would have liked to see more hurry up in the 4th.

 

Oh for sure. Even on that last drive they seemed to waste a lot of time lining for the next play when the clock was running down.

[coltrane34]

Then you disagree with fact, because that is the worst thing that could have happened*. Great. Guess what? I disagree with gravity. That's right. For today, gravity simply does not exist, because I disagree with it.

Hehehehehhe. You just don't like it because I apply the same exact method to football as I do PPP, and once again, you find yourself on the schit end of that stick. I present the real facts, not the made up/wishful/suit my agenda facts, and then construct logical arguments based on them.

 

It causes clowns to lose many arguments to me, like you are doing, right now.

 

Woah you are the Socrates of logical arguments. At least in your own mind

[Deranged Rhino]

Then you disagree with fact, because that is the worst thing that could have happened*. Great. Guess what? I disagree with gravity. That's right. For today, gravity simply does not exist, because I disagree with it.

 

It's not fact because it discounts what's going on in the actual game. Like I said, 9 times out of 10 it's the right call. This was not that time.

[OCinBuffalo]

Well he is correct and seems to have likely either played or coached the game called tackle football at some level the way his posts read today atleast. Or maybe he's just studied the game more than the average Joe. IDK 1st I've seen of him really

I must have missed something from prior to today?

No. Once upon a time there was this little girl, I mean mod, named simon. He routinely got his ass kicked on PPP for years, by me and others. He was a laughing stock. He would get back at us by giving us invisible warning points, complete with no explanation or PM, and then we log in, and presto! Banned. So, some of started posting only on PPP, and we even started a football thread there. This way, no more girlish games(what else should we expect from the left?), and we still get to do what we do.

 

This is the third time in 7 days I've been told to post more on the football board. Seeing what I have these last days? I can see why. Oh, and little kitty simon has gone bye bye, and we all lived happily ever after. The End.

The game would have ended the exact same way as far as the only meaningful statistic. They lose either way.

Right. But using that "logic" Marrone doing nothing, pulling the team off the field, getting on the bus, and trying to get home earlier, would also be a good move, because...they lose either way.

And Whaley has -- but there's no accounting for Marrone's decision to keep proven playmakers inactive.

Names.

The best play they ran all year was the Orton TD dive. Short yardage situation, no hesitation, snap the ball, catch the defense off guard dive forward and get the yard. It was so great and out of character that it makes me think Orton improvised it and the coaches had nothing to do with it.

And you can support that conclusion with what exactly? That's what I'm seeing over and over on this board: pure conjecture, and then "I'm never going to admit that my conjecture is wrong, not ever, fire Marrone! He can't coach!"

 

"Shomer Shabbas! Shomer F'ing Shabbas!"

 

Typical Bills fan mentality of the last decade plus.....acceptable being a loser. Yay! We lost but didn't get blown out! Yay! Let's celebrate.

 

This offense is an embarrassment.

 

This offense could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch better than a Chippewa hooker.

This post is an embarrassment. We are relevant for the first time in 10 years. We still have a 41% chance to make the playoffs. But, in absolute value world....this year is exactly the same as the year we started JP Losman and Mike Mularkey had Cheeseburger night!

 

"Shomer Shabbas!"

It's not fact because it discounts what's going on in the actual game. Like I said, 9 times out of 10 it's the right call. This was not that time.

Ok, how about I be generous and give you 8 out of 10, or, 4 out of 5?

 

Next, my friend has a Desert Eagle. Which is is .50 caliber, 5 round revolver. Let's play a game: I will load it with 4 rounds, spin it, and point it at you and pull the trigger.

 

Wanna play? Why not? You have a 20% chance of being right, just like Marrone had a 20% chance of being right by going for it on 4th down from his own 20, and the exact same consequences for him...well, professionally.

[TallskiWallski83]

Once again the only time our offense looked competent was when they got the ball into Watkins hands. Unfortunately it wasn't until we were down by 3 TDs they actually started force feeding him

[Deranged Rhino]

Right. But using that "logic" Marrone doing nothing, pulling the team off the field, getting on the bus, and trying to get home earlier, would also be a good move, because...they lose either way.

 

Your numbers completely overlook the positive outcomes. It is possible to make 2 yards. And if you can't there, your season is over. What you're advocating, and what Marrone did, is conventional wisdom completely removed from the context of the game being played. At that moment in time the likely hood of getting 2 yards on Denver's defense was greater than stopping Manning from icing the win by milking the clock. Scoring was not the only way Denver could "seal" the game.

 

It was the "right" call if you're coaching not to win. It's the wrong call if you're trying to win.

 

Names.

 

Mike Williams. There's no logic to it when the team struggles as badly as it has in the redzone this year.

Edited December 8, 2014 by GreggyT

[OCinBuffalo]

Woah you are the Socrates of logical arguments. At least in your own mind

Buddy, you've contradicted your own thread title 3 times in your own thread.

 

Get a F'ing grip.

[Pondslider]

Right. But using that "logic" Marrone doing nothing, pulling the team off the field, getting on the bus, and trying to get home earlier, would also be a good move, because...they lose either way.

 

Should the Bills have punted on 4th and 16 from their 22 on their last drive?

 

If not, why? What's different other than they already had to use up all their time outs and 2 minutes on the clock when they punted on 4th and 2?

Edited December 8, 2014 by Pondslider

[The Big Cat]

Typical Bills fan mentality of the last decade plus.....acceptable being a loser. Yay! We lost but didn't get blown out! Yay! Let's celebrate.

 

This offense is an embarrassment.

 

This offense could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch better than a Chippewa hooker.

 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the offense is anything BUT lousy. I do, however, see a clear distinction between fans who just want to throw up their hands and fire all the coaches and fans who understand that our running backs are poor, our offensive line is worse and our quarterback barely squeaks into the top ten.

[FireChan]

Your numbers completely overlook the positive outcomes. It is possible to make 2 yards. And if you can't there, your season is over. What you're advocating, and what Marrone did, is conventional wisdom completely removed from the context of the game being played. At that moment in time the likely hood of getting 2 yards on Denver's defense was greater than stopping Manning from icing the win by milking the clock. Scoring was not the only way Denver could "seal" the game.

 

It was the "right" call if you're coaching not to win. It's the wrong call if you're trying to win.

 

 

 

Mike Williams. There's no logic to it when the team struggles as badly as it has in the redzone this year.

 

Another receiver the QB can't hit when open?

 

I also disagree with the 5 minute punt. Remember when we talked about disjointed decisions? The TO called at 6 minutes was made with the belief that we had to score the next drive. Right? Then we get to 4th down and punt. Basically conceded 2 minutes of play time, as well as making an onside necessary. Jekyll and Hyde coaching to me.

[Niagara Dude]

I am sorry but you cannot punt down two scores on a 4th & 2.This guy cannot win big games, we lost against San Diego we lost against NE then against Kanas City, Miami now Denver with that defense you would think a least one of these games he could win.

[The Big Cat]

I am sorry but you cannot punt down two scores on a 4th & 2.This guy cannot win big games, we lost against San Diego we lost against NE then against Kanas City, Miami now Denver with that defense you would think a least one of these games he could win.

 

I take it you didn't watch the Minnesota or Detroit games? Only remember the close games we lost?

[Deranged Rhino]

Another receiver the QB can't hit when open?

 

That's a separate issue. Mike Williams on the field has to be accounted for by the defense way more than Hogan or anyone not named Sammy Watkins -- by reputation alone. Based on OC's question, he's the best and most obvious answer to the fact Whaley and GMs can only do so much. Ultimately the coaches have to use the roster in the way it was built. So far Marrone hasn't... at least offensively.

 

 

I also disagree with the 5 minute punt. Remember when we talked about disjointed decisions? The TO called at 6 minutes was made with the belief that we had to score the next drive. Right? Then we get to 4th down and punt. Basically conceded 2 minutes of play time, as well as making an onside necessary. Jekyll and Hyde coaching to me.

 

Exactly. I'm with you. It was the wrong call in the game and in the moment, no matter what the numbers say.

[34-78-83]

No. Once upon a time there was this little girl, I mean mod, named simon. He routinely got his ass kicked on PPP for years, by me and others. He was a laughing stock. He would get back at us by giving us invisible warning points, complete with no explanation or PM, and then we log in, and presto! Banned. So, some of started posting only on PPP, and we even started a football thread there. This way, no more girlish games(what else should we expect from the left?), and we still get to do what we do.

 

 

 

It gets even more odd then cuz I know Simon and Simon knows his football.Especially secondary play, and I don't think he deserves to be called what you calle d him (not that it would bother him). I don't and won't spend any time on PPP so ... mystery remains. Your football posts today make a lot of sense though

[coltrane34]

Buddy, you've contradicted your own thread title 3 times in your own thread.

 

Get a F'ing grip.

 

All Im saying is that it looks like by losing these close winable games with great talent, this offensive staff at the least has to be removed. Marrone wont fire Hackett. So..

[OCinBuffalo]

Your numbers completely overlook the positive outcomes. It is possible to make 2 yards. And if you can't there, your season is over.

WTF are you even saying, if we turned it over on downs there, the game, not the season, was over.

What you're advocating, and what Marrone did, is conventional wisdom completely removed from the context of the game being played.

What? The context of the game being played? Give Geno Smith the ball on our 20 yard line, he kneels it down 3 times and they kick a field goal...the game is instantly over. We had to completely stop them from scoring another single point, or the game was instantly over. That is the context in which the game was being played.

At that moment in time the likely hood of getting 2 yards on Denver's defense was greater than stopping Manning from icing the win by milking the clock. Scoring was not the only way Denver could "seal" the game.

But Denver scoring was, and remains, the worst thing that could have happened.

 

And, thank you for the new TBDism. Likely Hood. He's Robin Hood's cousin. He steals reason from otherwise rational Bills fans, and gives it to no one. He just keeps it, down in a cave, next to his JP Losman Jersey, signed Mike Mularkey Bills hat, and his "we should have never drafted Gilmore posts".

 

It was the "right" call if you're coaching not to win. It's the wrong call if you're trying to win.

Not at that spot on the field. You're giving the game away immediately, and making the time remaining irrelevant, if you don't get it. We had assets: time left to score 2 TDs, and a team full of players who were capable of pulling that off. We don't make that 4th and we are literally taking any chance our D had of stopping them, or our O had of scoring.

 

That's not good leadership in anything. You're putting your own "wisdom" ahead of your people's ability to do their jobs, and essentially telling them that when it comes down to it, you basically think they all suck at their jobs.

 

Good coaching my ass. Don't forget, part of my job is leading people, and has been for 20 years.

Mike Williams. There's no logic to it when the team struggles as badly as it has in the redzone this year.

What evidence exists that proves Hogan(um last week Red Zone TD) is a worse choice than Mike Williams?

[Fadingpain]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the offense is anything BUT lousy. I do, however, see a clear distinction between fans who just want to throw up their hands and fire all the coaches and fans who understand that our running backs are poor, our offensive line is worse and our quarterback barely squeaks into the top ten.

 

And by this you presumably mean "close to dead last."

 

Right?

[Deranged Rhino]

What evidence exists that proves Hogan(um last week Red Zone TD) is a worse choice than Mike Williams?

Reality.

http://www.nfl.com/player/mikewilliams/2508048/careerstats

[ganesh]

Orton threw for 355 yards. He wasn't the problem. The problem was 15 runs compared to 57 pass plays.

Much of that came in garbage time. He threw two bad INTs especially the one in the end-zone. It cost us points. The second one was a lame duck throw that resulted in a TD in the ensuing series. The Bills were against all odds, playing on the road on the West Coast against one of the best teams in the league with a HOF QB who has been on fire; Thye needed to play mistake free football especially considering the calls that went against them and they blew it. Marrone, once again did not have this team prepared. The reason they stopped running the ball was that the Defense gave up a TD in under 3 minutes after half time putting them in a 18 point hole (increased to 21 soon). They had to throw the football at that point.

[flmike]

I'm not a fan of the dynamic duo, but they didn't lose us the game today. They are fairly limited with Orton in there and he just wasn't up to the task of carrying the team when it needed it. The Bills must find a good QB for next year. EJ Manuel is not going to be that QB, no matter what they think. Draft another QB and overpay a free agent next year and that might give us some hope.

 

Did anyone else notice the Broncos kind of sleep walking through this one? It almost caught up with them, but they are so much better than Buffalo, especially at home, they didn't need to even try that hard today.

[Billsguy]

I thought Hackett called a really good game. Execution was lacking.

 

It reminds me of a quote from former Tampa Bay coach John McKay when asked about his teams execution. He said in response, "I'm in favor of it!"

[Pondslider]

Not at that spot on the field. You're giving the game away immediately, and making the time remaining irrelevant, if you don't get it. We had assets: time left to score 2 TDs, and a team full of players who were capable of pulling that off. We don't make that 4th and we are literally taking any chance our D had of stopping them, or our O had of scoring.

 

A team full of players capable of what? They hadn't scored two TDs the entire game up to that point. Scoring two in 5 minutes was going to be difficult enough without losing two minutes and two time outs by giving the ball away on a makable 4th down.

[No QB - No Bueno]

Orton - this guy is counting his money, he's not in it to win games in December).

 

Wonder if Orton has the same bookie as Vanek.

[OCinBuffalo]

A team full of players capable of what? They hadn't scored two TDs the entire game up to that point. Scoring two in 5 minutes was going to be difficult enough without losing two minutes and two time outs by giving the ball away on a makable 4th down.

Um, what was the final score, and, how many TDs did we have to obtain to reach that final score?

 

This is ridiculous, you're assuming everything good, and ignoring the fact that any small thing, like a bad snap, or a open WR dropping/fumbling the ball(um do we remember last year, similar situation? Do the words Stevie Johnson ring a bell?), completely F's us.

 

I understand the temptation to go for it. But, I also win more than I lose at poker. It's called: managing temptation.

 

Reality.

http://www.nfl.com/p...048/careerstats

Reality: Hogan had a Red Zone TD last week, and a lot of other good plays today. So, what do you know that the rest of us don't?

 

Reality: Do you honestly think any manager, whose ass is on the line, even if he hates the employee, wouldn't put his best guy on the job, and would put his lesser guy there, just to prove something....to someone....somewhere....I have no idea what the rationale for that is....

 

IF that is what Marrone is IN FACT doing that(fact meaning you can prove it) then yeah, that's a problem. That's weak leadership. Hell, I'd fire him tomorrow. But, it's not fact. Once again, it's conjecture.

 

Mike Williams is not playing because......(we have no real idea why). Chris Hogan is playing, and I remember a certain Minnesota game...where Hogan literally won the damn thing with a circus catch, which was only necessary because of a badly thrown ball. I don't see how it's Hogan's fault, or Marrone's, that he is playing and Williams is sitting. I don't see Hogan being any sort of reason for doing anything, other than playing him every week.

Edited December 8, 2014 by OCinBuffalo

[34-78-83]

Um, what was the final score, and, how many TDs did we have to obtain to reach that final score?

 

This is ridiculous, you're assuming everything good, and ignoring the fact that any small thing, like a bad snap, or a open WR dropping/fumbling the ball(um do we remember last year, similar situation? Do the words Stevie Johnson ring a bell?), completely F's us.

 

I understand the temptation to go for it. But, I also win more than I lose at poker. It's called: managing temptation.

 

 

Reality: Hogan had a Red Zone TD last week, and a lot of other good plays today. So, what do you know that the rest of us don't?

 

Reality: Do you honestly think any manager, whose ass is on the line, even if he hates the employee, wouldn't put his best guy on the job, and would put his lesser guy there, just to prove something....to someone....somewhere....I have no idea what the rationale for that is....

 

IF that is what Marrone is IN FACT doing(fact meaning you can prove it) then yeah, that's a problem. That's weak leadership. Hell, I'd fire him tomorrow. But, it's not fact. Once again, it's conjecture.

 

Mike Williams is not playing because......(we have no real idea why). Chris Hogan is playing, and I remember a certain Minnesota game...where Hogan literally won the damn thing with a circus catch, which was only necessary because of a badly thrown ball. I don't see how it's Hogan's fault, or Marrone's, that he is playing and Williams is sitting. I don't see Hogan being any sort of reason for doing anything, other than playing him every week.

Man you make too much sense tonight