Mango Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Yeah, he should go down with the bust of a ship somebody else drafted. Manuel is terrible and was a terrible draft pick. Furthermore, Norv Turner had a great deal of success under Jimmy Johnson, when the Cowboys had Aikman, Irvin and Emmitt. He was very good in San Diego with Rivers, Tomlinson and Jackson. Other than that, he's been mediocre to terrible and just gotten by on reputation built on those two teams He was mediocre to terrible as a HC. The previous are OC jobs. Bridgewater looked pretty ready to play this past weekend. Yep. people complained when he ran all the time on first down and then complained when he didn't run all the time on first down. Fans for some reason seem to think that most plays should go for first downs when it's just foolish. He's done a pretty good if not very good job this year. The fact is, virtually everyone agrees that in all four games there were a LOT of pass plays to be made on the field and any kind of even serviceable QBing would have resulted in a lot more scoring and either a 3-1 or 4-0 record. How is that possible that Hackett sucks, too? There is a big difference between not running every first down and throwing the ball 44 times with a rook See I think the push up front in the run game has been piss poor all season. I've seen C. Williams and Pears wiff on more than a few run blocks. I've seen Henderson miss a couple. So is it really a strength? No this OL on its best day is average. Best day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I'm not trying to argue with you, Kelso, or Kelly -- you all raise excellent points and that's what makes this such a more interesting debate than what normally goes on around here. Just want to lead with that because I know I can come across as being nit-picky or confrontational... From what I've seen on the all 22s, the run blocking hasn't been as great as I expected it to be this season and they've certainly struggled in spots (especially Pears -- and I'm not even beating the dead horse anymore, he's awful). This is especially true when they try to make Pears (or even Williams/Richardson) pull to seal the edge, they've all been terrible at that and it's a big reason why CJ hasn't broken more long runs so far. So you definitely have a point there, and I have to concede it. Overall though, the line was built to fire off the ball and physically dominate other teams. That's why the line is as enormous as it is, why else build a massive line if not to impose your will on the opponent? When you factor in that it was on the road, in a historically loud stadium (making pass protection shifts more difficult to call) and it was Richardson's first NFL start, it just seems logical that you'd want to run the ball early and take the crowd, and pass rushing advantage Watt and company had, out of the game. Instead, by passing three straight times (4 really), they allowed Houston to get comfortable, the crowd to get loud, and Watt to get into a good groove early. Watt was going to make plays, the guy is a monster, but I'd rather have him making plays early in the run game (hopefully two or three yards down field) than the pass game. It smacked to me of Hackett trying to be too cute by passing when everyone expected them to run. Sometimes going against expectations is a great call, Kelly pointed that out with the *pats, but when you're on the road and have a young QB, a felon-in-the-making at RG and a rookie at LG... well, to me it's suspect. Again, I'm coming at this from an amateur perspective and am in support of giving Hackett a real chance before rushing to judgement -- this quibble of mine is the only real time I've scratched my head in terms of Hackett. I'm also aware that I have the benefit of hindsight, but I wanted to shake him during the game. I too was surprised by the offense opening with throwing the ball. And the line is certainly larger than Houston's defensive line, that said, they also were playing people in new positions and may not have been comfortable saying size is all that matters. Remember this was CK first start and in a new position. But regardless of how big your 5 guy on the line are they most likely are not going to push eight guys around. Hackett now has a chance to show if he is good or not and not be limited by the QB. As many have stated when both Tuel and Lewis were in the lineup last year the team had a far more professional looking offense. The offense was in games with New England twice and KC when they were undefeated that should tell you something about what Hackett can do. Regardless, now there will be no excuses for him and we will truly know how he game plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I too was surprised by the offense opening with throwing the ball. And the line is certainly larger than Houston's defensive line, that said, they also were playing people in new positions and may not have been comfortable saying size is all that matters. Remember this was CK first start and in a new position. But regardless of how big your 5 guy on the line are they most likely are not going to push eight guys around. Hackett now has a chance to show if he is good or not and not be limited by the QB. As many have stated when both Tuel and Lewis were in the lineup last year the team had a far more professional looking offense. The offense was in games with New England twice and KC when they were undefeated that should tell you something about what Hackett can do. Regardless, now there will be no excuses for him and we will truly know how he game plans. Size is meaningless without talent, just ask Colin Brown / Cornell Green / Derrick Dockery. The Texans had 5 defenders on the line, and two backers 3 yards behind them. The Bills had 5 linemen, a TE, and a RB. So that's 5 Texans vs 7 Bills, and those backers didn't blitz much. Still, EJ was getting hit, and saw pressure almost every pass play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 He was fired, no, wait, he quit. And they went 5-11 after 9-7. He hardly "mangled" the QB situation. He did play JP for half the season or so. JP absolutely sucked. He proved to be a hopeless 1st round reach. Mularkey realized this early on, as did many of us here. Yep & some of us realized the pick to draft EJ in the first was a major reach right the night of the draft. People on this board really need to start paying more attention to college football, which is a much better game then the NFL anyways. Manuel is what he is. @ FSU, he was widely inaccurate on midrange to long passes, he could run but was hesitant to use his legs as a consistent weapon, he struggled to see all the field, hence why Fisher pretty much ran a simplistic offense where he only had to survey a quarter of the field on each read. Ask some of the FSU fans on this board what EJ was in college. The Bills got the exact same guy. Why poeple think a guy is going to change in the NFL where the windows are so much tighter & the game is so much quicker is beyond me. People fall in love with the good arm & a guy's 40 time. Doesn't mean he could play QB in the NFL though. A lot of GM's still have not figured this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Yep & some of us realized the pick to draft EJ in the first was a major reach right the night of the draft. People on this board really need to start paying more attention to college football, which is a much better game then the NFL anyways. Manuel is what he is. @ FSU, he was widely inaccurate on midrange to long passes, he could run but was hesitant to use his legs as a consistent weapon, he struggled to see all the field, hence why Fisher pretty much ran a simplistic offense where he only had to survey a quarter of the field on each read. Ask some of the FSU fans on this board what EJ was in college. The Bills got the exact same guy. Why poeple think a guy is going to change in the NFL where the windows are so much tighter & the game is so much quicker is beyond me. People fall in love with the good arm & a guy's 40 time. Doesn't mean he could play QB in the NFL though. A lot of GM's still have not figured this out. I love this! I wish more people would pay attention to it. How often in a game do you really need to throw a ball more than 15 yards? It is mind boggling how a "strong arm" or "upside/potential" seems to be reason many QBs are liked. I believe a player can grow, even after entering the NFL, but they have to put in the effort. I do not know how often that occurs in this day and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Put yourself in Marrones shoes. With new ownership coming in there will be a whole new front office in place that will review the entire orginization from the top down. I'm sure the feeling for many at OBD is that their jobs are on the line. If you're Marrone are you going to put your job on the line to develop a QB who has shown virtually nothing? If Marrone fails will he ever get another shot at being a HC in the NFL again? Doubtful at best. So you want the HC to go with a QB who was no great shakes at FSU, has shown little if any development as a pro, and more than likely will not be any better anytime soon. The division is up for grabs. Orton may very well fail too, but Marrone doesn't need to see anymore to realize EJ can't get it done this year. Might as well roll the dice with Orton, at this point he has nothing to lose. Marrone has reached the pinnacle of his profession in being a HC in the NFL. This most likely will be his one and only shot. It's nonsensical to believe he's going to throw his opportunity away in the NFL just to develop a lousy QB. And when all is said and done he may still be fired. But if Orton is competent and he makes the playoffs good luck selling that to the fans who watched him guide their team to the playoffs for the first time in well over a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I love this! I wish more people would pay attention to it. How often in a game do you really need to throw a ball more than 15 yards? It is mind boggling how a "strong arm" or "upside/potential" seems to be reason many QBs are liked. I believe a player can grow, even after entering the NFL, but they have to put in the effort. I do not know how often that occurs in this day and age. Name any weak arm qb to win a Super Bowl. Ever. Trent Dilfer didn't even have a weak arm. And it's even worse in the last 15-20 years because cbs and safeties are so quick. The only weak armed qb to win anything was a divisional title by Chad Pennington who was a brilliant Qb. A strong arm is imperative. It doesn't have to be a rocket arm but you cannot win in the NFL with a rag arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Name any weak arm qb to win a Super Bowl. Ever. Trent Dilfer didn't even have a weak arm. And it's even worse in the last 15-20 years because cbs and safeties are so quick. The only weak armed qb to win anything was a divisional title by Chad Pennington who was a brilliant Qb. A strong arm is imperative. It doesn't have to be a rocket arm but you cannot win in the NFL with a rag arm. I am not stating they should not have a average arm but having a "strong arm" shouldn't be the overwhelming reason you like a particular candidate. Take a look at the names in the lower tier here and tell me there are not quite a few you wouldn't mind being at the helm of your team: _http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1266536-power-ranking-the-arm-strength-of-all-32-nfl-starting-qbs Edited October 1, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Take a look at the names in the lower tier here and tell me there are not quite a few you wouldn't mind being at the helm of your team: _http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1266536-power-ranking-the-arm-strength-of-all-32-nfl-starting-qbs You answer my question first and I will answer yours. guys with pretty decent arms have a tough time winning the whole thing or even going deep in playoffs. I'm not even sure Andy Dalton is good enough to win and he's a pretty good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 You answer my question first and I will answer yours. guys with pretty decent arms have a tough time winning the whole thing or even going deep in playoffs. I'm not even sure Andy Dalton is good enough to win and he's a pretty good QB. To be honest I doubt too many of the Superbowl winners from the 70-90s have arms as strong as people expect now. I don't really know, do you? Hostetler comes to mind. Regardless, how strong of an arm do you need in a near perfect environment of a dome or warm weather local in February? What you need is accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 To be honest I doubt too many of the Superbowl winners from the 70-90s have arms as strong as people expect now. I don't really know, do you? Hostetler comes to mind. Regardless, how strong of an arm do you need in a near perfect environment of a dome or warm weather local in February? What you need is accuracy. I'm pretty antiquated. I saw every one of those QBs. And Hostetler easily had a strong enough arm. To me it's inarguable because no one has done it. And it's why guys like colt McCoy and Kellen Moore who are incredibly accurate and smart football players can't even make teams. Because you just can't win. And guys their size that have very good if not cannon arms like Russell Wilson and Drew Bree's can succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I'm pretty antiquated. I saw every one of those QBs. And Hostetler easily had a strong enough arm. To me it's inarguable because no one has done it. And it's why guys like colt McCoy and Kellen Moore who are incredibly accurate and smart football players can't even make teams. Because you just can't win. And guys their size that have very good if not cannon arms like Russell Wilson and Drew Bree's can succeed. Kellen Moore is was selected behind an established starter and Colt McCoy was started with the Browns(not too much good happens to QBs selected from them). I understand what you are saying, but isn't it more likely that those types of players are not given a chance do to prejudice of the league and a reason to be dismissive because of those "flaws", where prototypical QBs get longer ropes even though it is obvious they are not getting the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Yips? No wonder he's played horribly. Didn't know they opened up a chain in Buffalo. ive been wondering if he has the yips too, like that QB from Wisconsin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I can't think of a more misused phrase than "the exception that proves the rule." If there is an exception, there is no rule. The phrase only makes sense when applied to rules like this one: "No parking Monday thru Saturday." The missing day proves that there is an exception (Sunday) to the rule (no parking), which has a built-in limitation. The point is that you're saying there is a rule that has an exception, which means that the rule doesn't exist. At all. I understand the frustration - an exception, by its nature, can't prove a rule. At best, an exception must call the accuracy of the rule into question. However, it's not true that "if there's an exception there is no rule". Rules (in this usage of the word) are simply observed patterns that usefully describe most of the data. Thus "i before e" is still a useful spelling rule, even with the exceptions "except after c or when sounded like a as in neighbor or neigh". That men, on average, are stronger and taller than women, on average, is a useful demographic observation ("rule") that isn't negated by the existance of woman bodybuilders who are stronger than most men or 6'5" woman volleyball players. So on and so forth. The rule is still useful to explain most of the data, and thus still exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Where ya at Biscotti? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 You're right. Brilliant move. Kyle Orton led us to one td and made the Lions' kicker miss 3 field goals. Clearly, he deserves a spot on the wall of game. We were gifted that game and nearly blew an amazing defensive game because we couldn't score. 300 yards means nothing if you don't score. Love the W, hate the hypocrites. If EJ only scored a td, threw a pick 6, & throw an awful pass that required one of the catches I've seen, you would be ripping him. Be consistent. Orton wasn't the reason we won this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) You're right. Brilliant move. Kyle Orton led us to one td and made the Lions' kicker miss 3 field goals. Clearly, he deserves a spot on the wall of game. We were gifted that game and nearly blew an amazing defensive game because we couldn't score. 300 yards means nothing if you don't score. Love the W, hate the hypocrites. If EJ only scored a td, threw a pick 6, & throw an awful pass that required one of the catches I've seen, you would be ripping him. Be consistent. Orton wasn't the reason we won this game. I'm sorry, I thought you said Marrone should be fired for pulling EJ. Not that Kyle Orton needs to play amazing. 1-0 with Orton. Undefeated against playoff teams. Be happy. Edited October 5, 2014 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Now's the perfect time to can him. Strike while the iron's hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 You're right. Brilliant move. Kyle Orton led us to one td and made the Lions' kicker miss 3 field goals. Clearly, he deserves a spot on the wall of game. We were gifted that game and nearly blew an amazing defensive game because we couldn't score. 300 yards means nothing if you don't score. Love the W, hate the hypocrites. If EJ only scored a td, threw a pick 6, & throw an awful pass that required one of the catches I've seen, you would be ripping him. Be consistent. Orton wasn't the reason we won this game. Your lead line now repeated in multiple threads is growing tiresome. i feel like I am reading a CNN loop. rewrite your story please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 Your lead line now repeated in multiple threads is growing tiresome. i feel like I am reading a CNN loop. rewrite your story please. I don't give a crap about your opinion so feel free to ignore. I responded to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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