JohnC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) I strongly suspect that agreement about the sabres was not for 35 years (or forever) and did not include a 1 Billion dollar penalty. My understanding is that he could not sell to anyone who would move the the team. There were no time frame parameters. It simply stipulated that if he sold the team it had to be to someone who is going to keep the team in Buffalo. I'm only referring to what Pegula was bound to do. I'm not commenting on what the next owner is bound to do if he sold it. So in essence we are not necessarily disagreeing. Edited July 25, 2014 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Agree with your sentiment. The part that is missing is WHAT has made them change course? It isn't the goodness of their hearts. Anyone thinking that the trust was EVER going to take this group at the word just doesn't get it. While this exposed their original intentions to the public this is certainly not news to the Bills brass or trust. Their changed their minds because they had to in order to have a chance. They want to own an NFL team first and an NFL team in Toronto 2nd (not the other way around). I think that the Toronto group knows it has to keep up appearances right now, but thinks in the back of their minds that they will go forward long enough to see what the actual terms of any agreement would be specifically (including specific language that their lawyers can dig into and find ways to circumvent). Then they will re-assess. These are people who have amassed billions of dollars by buying, suing, waiting out, or crushing opponents to get what they want. You don't get billions of dollars by playing nice all the time. There are always ways. What constitutes "relocation" for example? How far does the new stadium have to be from RWS for it to be considered "relocation"? Is it a certain number of miles? Will there be certain limits (like only Erie or Niagara counties?) Certain places in Southern Ontario are closer to RWS than Niagara Falls, for example. What conditions are there to protect new owners from financial distress? Can those be exploited somehow? When you have one party that has demonstrated a desire to do the opposite of what it is agreeing to do now, you have to be extremely suspicious of the intent. The problem with that scenario is that one party is sincere, while the other is going to try to find holes somewhere in the agreement to exploit. Anyone who works with contracts knows that some lawyers make their living finding ways to violate the spirit of an agreement based on technicalities. I know some might read that and consider it "paranoid" or whatever, but this is how lawyers work. Where is the "complete and utter BS" here? The complete and utter BS is this group saying that they are committed to WNY. That is laughable. The "extra special plans" comment is also a shot at this group's supposed plans for WNY. I guess these plans are ones we can trust them on, unlike everything they have said and done for the past 10 years or so. Edited July 25, 2014 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Don't think this has been posted yet. http://www.torontosu...-to-beat-source Although this is old, I'm glad you posted it. Here's why: I was wondering about the timing of today's Buffalo News story, which is more or less pro-Bon Jovi: http://www.buffalone...-sites-20140724 . I exaggerate just a little when I say that it could have been written by good 'ol Ken Sunshine himself. Note that it's written by the News's Albany-based reporter. Presumably, the reporter (Tom Precious) has to maintain a good relationship with the administration to get any info. I'm not saying he's a shill, but politicians have been known to use the media, after all. Also, if Kryk is right, than Cuomo is on board with the JBJ Niagara Falls plan. If that's true, JW's piece doesn't do Cuomo (not to mention JBJ and the Toronto group) any favors. Is this a rapid-fire response attempt to stop the bleeding? I wouldn't be surprised, but maybe I'm being too cynical here. Edited July 25, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Although this is old, I'm glad you posted it. Here's why: I was wondering about the timing of today's Buffalo News story, which is more or less pro-Bon Jovi: http://www.buffalone...-sites-20140724 . I exaggerate just a little when I say that it could have been written by good 'ol Ken Sunshine himself. Note that it's written by the News's Albany-based reporter. Presumably, the reporter (Tom Precious) has to maintain a good relationship with the administration to get any info. I'm not saying he's a shill, but politicians have been known to use the media, after all. Also, if Kryk is right, than Cuomo is on board with the JBJ Niagara Falls plan. If that's true, JW's piece doesn't do Cuomo (not to mention JBJ and the Toronto group) any favors. Is this a rapid-fire response attempt to stop the bleeding? I wouldn't be surprised, but maybe I'm being too cynical here. In my book there is no such thing as "too cynical" when it comes to politics and billion dollar transactions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 In my book there is no such thing as "too cynical" when it comes to politics and billion dollar transactions Or Jon Bon Jersey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv's Neighbor Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If we look at the BILLS strictly as a business, it's difficult to justify; buying the franchise, breaking the lease, paying the penalties, moving the team, purchasing a new stadium site, and building a new stadium AND after all that, being profitable? It makes as much sense as Trump building a Casino in Atlantic City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) The Problem: From now until the actual announcement that Terry Pegula is the new owner of the Buffalo Bills, there will be a series of reports of how serious the Toronto contingent is, how there are other entities not talked about a lot who are very serious bidders, how someone with a lot of money could swoop in and claim the team with deep pockets and a blow the trust out of the water bid like Steve Ballmer did... which will wreak havoc with this site and Bills fandom in general. The Reason: The NFL genuinely wants the Bills to stay in Buffalo and the NFL genuinely wants to make as much money as they can, and the NFL owners want their own franchises to be worth more money when the Bills are sold than they are now. Soooooo, the NFL is going to let all these people come to the table, and they are not going to make any public statement in favor of the team staying in Buffalo, and they are going to make Pegula and other Buffalo area bidders up their bids a little, over the 1 billion mark because of the threat simply because they want to max out the local bid. It will work, and it will make Terry pay a little more than he would have (simply because there is no way in hell the NFL is actually going to approve a Toronto bid). The Result: Overnight, each NFL franchise is going to be worth about 100-200 million more than it was before because 1.1 or 1.2b, for a small market franchise, has now become the going rate. So teams valued at 800m today will be 1b in a few months. The NFL gets exactly what it wants, but we get to keep the team here. The Job For You: Don't panic. Listen to Kirby and other level headed posters with some knowledge of the situation. Don't go apeshit over random reports of money talks. Money does talk, but the Bills are staying. Edited July 25, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The Problem: From now until the actual announcement that Terry Pegula is the new owner of the Buffalo Bills, there will be a series of reports of how serious the Toronto contingent is, how there are other entities not talked about a lot who are very serious bidders, how someone with a lot of money could swoop in and claim the team with deep pockets and a blow the trust out of the water bid like Steve Ballmer did... which will wreak havoc with this site and Bills fandom in general. The Reason: The NFL genuine wants the Bills to stay in Buffalo and the NFL genuinely wants to make as much money as they can, and the NFL owners want their own franchises to be worth more money when the Bills are sold than they are now. Soooooo, the NFL is going to let all these people come to the table, and they are not going to make any public statement in favor of the team staying in Buffalo, and they are going to make Pegula and other Buffalo area bidders up their bids a little, over the 1 billion mark because of the threat simply because they want to max out the local bid. It will work, and it will make Terry pay a little more than he would have (simply because there is no way in hell the NFL is actually going to approve a Toronto bid). The Result: Overnight, each NFL franchise is going to be worth about 100-200 million more than it was before because 1.1 or 1.2b, for a small market franchise, has now become the going rate. So teams valued at 800m today will be 1b in a few months. The NFL gets exactly what it wants, but we get to keep the team here. The Job For You: Don't panic. Listen to Kirby and other level headed posters with some knowledge of the situation. Don't go apeshit over random reports of money talks. Money does talk, but the Bills are staying. And cut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The Problem: From now until the actual announcement that Terry Pegula is the new owner of the Buffalo Bills, there will be a series of reports of how serious the Toronto contingent is, how there are other entities not talked about a lot who are very serious bidders, how someone with a lot of money could swoop in and claim the team with deep pockets and a blow the trust out of the water bid like Steve Ballmer did... which will wreak havoc with this site and Bills fandom in general. The Reason: The NFL genuinely wants the Bills to stay in Buffalo and the NFL genuinely wants to make as much money as they can, and the NFL owners want their own franchises to be worth more money when the Bills are sold than they are now. Soooooo, the NFL is going to let all these people come to the table, and they are not going to make any public statement in favor of the team staying in Buffalo, and they are going to make Pegula and other Buffalo area bidders up their bids a little, over the 1 billion mark because of the threat simply because they want to max out the local bid. It will work, and it will make Terry pay a little more than he would have (simply because there is no way in hell the NFL is actually going to approve a Toronto bid). The Result: Overnight, each NFL franchise is going to be worth about 100-200 million more than it was before because 1.1 or 1.2b, for a small market franchise, has now become the going rate. So teams valued at 800m today will be 1b in a few months. The NFL gets exactly what it wants, but we get to keep the team here. The Job For You: Don't panic. Listen to Kirby and other level headed posters with some knowledge of the situation. Don't go apeshit over random reports of money talks. Money does talk, but the Bills are staying. makes sense... I'm going to take a break from the boards for a few days and just enjoy some fishing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eiregi Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If you go to sportsnet.ca (a Rogers entity, their ESPN)..no journalist chatter about the Bills... Kinda good to see that worse of would be a leak 'leaked'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 yes good idea everyone. let's sit around and do nothing and maybe it will all work out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Bills fans in general and even here where almost all of them are dedicated are not as well read or well informed on these things as you or I are who follow them closely. You saw the reaction from even long time posters who should know better that it was no news. JW is about to get a French Connection Statue in front of the stadium for writing that article whether it gave actual new news or not. You're looking at it as a technical fact, and you are right. But the actual affect is palpable. Good points. Pretty much everywhere. Contracts are written that they survive "successors and assigns." When you take over an entity, including property, you are taking over the responsibilities and liabilities associated with it by contract. That doesn't preclude you from negotiating a different deal, but it does preclude you from walking away from that which legally bounds you to the property or entity. As Bandit indicated if you take over a building that has a lease you are obligated to live up to that lease, unless it is renegotiated. My understanding is that anyone who buys the team is subjected to the terms of the lease. One of the terms is that the new owner can not sign a deal with an intention to move. The intention to move and any act demonstrating it would be cause for litigation by the county and state. At least that is how I understand it after listening to the County Executive on a couple of radio interviews. That is why there is so much commotion from the stadium study in Toronto. . Thanks GG and John. I was wondering if a new owner had standing to renegotiate or force a renegotiation. What if the previous owner had signed a particularly onerous lease immediately prior to his death. Would the new owner have no recourse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 yes good idea everyone. let's sit around and do nothing and maybe it will all work out You're right...much better to get upset and let it bother you when the team isn't leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffaloed in Pa Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think the point everybody is missing is we will probably split games in Toronto if they ehh get them. Won`t move them,BUT more games in TORONTO. Bet on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I know the idea of building a stadium with the jbj group in buffalo would be a lot of money for that contractor/company but how funny would it be if all of the buffalo based contractors snubbed them and refused to take meetings with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I know the idea of building a stadium with the jbj group in buffalo would be a lot of money for that contractor/company but how funny would it be if all of the buffalo based contractors snubbed them and refused to take meetings with them? They wouldn't hire a local firm to build a stadium. They would hire a national firm that builds stadiums and that company would hire local contractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 They wouldn't hire a local firm to build a stadium. They would hire a national firm that builds stadiums and that company would hire local contractors. Right. I guess I was referring more to the reports of them hiring a local firm for stadium site surveys. At least that's what I believe they said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Right. I guess I was referring more to the reports of them hiring a local firm for stadium site surveys. At least that's what I believe they said. Gotcha. You're probably right about that. Unfortunately that would probably be the worst thing that we could do. That would give them reason to look outside of Buffalo for a stadium saying we tried to do one in WNY but were shot down. That could be the only reason an Erie County judge could rule in their favor in the inevitable court case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Thanks GG and John. I was wondering if a new owner had standing to renegotiate or force a renegotiation. What if the previous owner had signed a particularly onerous lease immediately prior to his death. Would the new owner have no recourse? If the previous owner signed an onerous deal (for whom?) the bidders would be fully aware of the terms before they submitted their bids. So no one can make the claim that a lease deal is too onerous because the solution is simple: Don't bid on a project you can't handle. As you are well aware the Wilson trustees are allowing serious bidders to examine their financial books on a limited basis for the first screening of serious bidders, and then when the list is culled a more detailed examination of the books will be allowed to the top remaining bidders. Thus from a legal standpoint no one has a standing that the terms of the deal are unfair and should be altered. As you know I have been a harsh critic of Ralph Wilson as an owner from a football standpoint. But from a business and estate planning perspective he is brilliant. Most of the terms of his estate are privately held. But as the process moves forward and as it unfolds even a harsh critic like myself can't complain that he hasn't been loyal to the region. There are no guarantees in the outcome but he has been more than fair (generous) towards western NY. Ralph Wilson has passed away. But in a sense he is the one determining who will be the next owner. Very impressive! Edited July 26, 2014 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Gotcha. You're probably right about that. Unfortunately that would probably be the worst thing that we could do. That would give them reason to look outside of Buffalo for a stadium saying we tried to do one in WNY but were shot down. That could be the only reason an Erie County judge could rule in their favor in the inevitable court case. It would be that way assuming they had the winning bid. Imagine they meet with the trust and the trust says "so let's see what you have planned for a new stadium in the buffalo area?" I would love to see their faces if that ever happened and no one accepted their site survey request. Edited July 25, 2014 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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