Do you believe that the Toronto group will keep the team in Buffalo?

[KDIGGZ]

so this is me sounding like a complete idiot, but I need to ask.

 

Is it really practical to think the league owners would approve anyone who hasn't given a firm commitment to keeping the Bills in Buffalo long term? Would the other owners in the league, and whomever buys the team run the risk of it being a lame-duck franchise until the penalty period is up and the team can be moved cheaper than now? Wouldn't that be a huge black eye for the league to see a mostly empty stadium and a team generating no real revenue because the city and the fans have possibly turned their collective backs on their team?

 

I'm not saying I'm smart, so don't attack, just the thoughts in my head

That's kind of the conclusion I'm trying to find between the two polls. So far it looks like 90% of us don't believe that the Toronto group would stay in Buffalo and 50% of us wouldn't support the team anymore if they were to win the bid. If that is a reflection of the entire Bills fanbase then I think that is good news for us. I think the NFL and the Trust will see that there will not be any support for a Toronto owned Bills team and maybe they will instead sell to a local like Pegula

[Kirby Jackson]

That's kind of the conclusion I'm trying to find between the two polls. So far it looks like 90% of us don't believe that the Toronto group would stay in Buffalo and 50% of us wouldn't support the team anymore if they were to win the bid. If that is a reflection of the entire Bills fanbase then I think that is good news for us. I think the NFL and the Trust will see that there will not be any support for a Toronto owned Bills team and maybe they will instead sell to a local like Pegula

I think that it would be interesting to have done the poll as how many think the team will move before 2020 vs. after. It would have been a good way to weed out the uninformed. There is a 0% chance that they leave before then but I would venture a guess that at least 1/3 of the people that believe the team will be moved think that it would be prior. Anyone that believes that is an option just doesn't understand the process.

[Homey D. Clown]

Especially not Jon Bon Jovi's group, it's actually funny how he's pulled a complete 180 in the media. If anyone believes any group from toronto has a shred of intention to keep the team in Buffalo, I've got some ocean front property in oklahoma I'd like to sell you.

 

Here's hoping pegula or Golisano gets the team. I wall probably not attend another game if a toronto group does land the team, I'd bet my entire retirement that as soon as the lease is up, that team is gone. Not even a fraction of 1000th of a percent that they don't.

[May Day 10]

I think that it would be interesting to have done the poll as how many think the team will move before 2020 vs. after. It would have been a good way to weed out the uninformed. There is a 0% chance that they leave before then but I would venture a guess that at least 1/3 of the people that believe the team will be moved think that it would be prior. Anyone that believes that is an option just doesn't understand the process.

 

I certainly believe that Bon Jovi and friends plan on keeping the team here until the 2020. They will put forth a "good faith" stadium proposal that will almost certainly be shot down, allowing the relocation in 2020 and shifting the blame on us and the politicians.

Just initiating that process is a big mistake for the group and the NFL.

 

I feel stronger that the Toronto group is just in it as a courtesy and drive up fear, the bid price, and the stadium conversation... then the NFL will reward them down the line.

[Kirby Jackson]

I certainly believe that Bon Jovi and friends plan on keeping the team here until the 2020. They will put forth a "good faith" stadium proposal that will almost certainly be shot down, allowing the relocation in 2020 and shifting the blame on us and the politicians.

Just initiating that process is a big mistake for the group and the NFL.

 

I feel stronger that the Toronto group is just in it as a courtesy and drive up fear, the bid price, and the stadium conversation... then the NFL will reward them down the line.

Interesting post and insight May Day!! That may very well be the end game in all of this.

[TheFunPolice]

I certainly believe that Bon Jovi and friends plan on keeping the team here until the 2020. They will put forth a "good faith" stadium proposal that will almost certainly be shot down, allowing the relocation in 2020 and shifting the blame on us and the politicians.

Just initiating that process is a big mistake for the group and the NFL.

 

I feel stronger that the Toronto group is just in it as a courtesy and drive up fear, the bid price, and the stadium conversation... then the NFL will reward them down the line.

 

That makes the most sense, as nobody wins in a scenario where local bidders or other groups submit competitive bids and the Toronto group is chosen

[Hplarrm]

I think you are WRONG if you have made the conclusion that it will be decided by the Toronto group where the team will be located.

 

From what I see, many of us are making the assumption that the rich individual that owns the team rules and can make the determination virtually on their own where the team is based. It is understandable that someone draws this conclusion because this was the way the NFL operated primarily back in the day of George Halas.

 

However, this ain't your Grandma's NFL anymore. Since the day Pete Rozelle was hired to run the NFL and publicly began to lead the NFL toward a world where each individual owner has realized (and has voted accordingly)that they own and produce the product they sell together and that taking the advantage of their individual control would actually produce less profit for them.

 

I think the key episodes were:

 

through the mid-80s- The NFL (and many major sports) were producing money hand over fist as the growth of TV changed the market teams were profiting from local appeal and ticket sales to a national (and potentially becoming international) market. As individual player notoriety grew and the NFLPA became more organized, the NFLPA engaged traditional AFL-CIO leadership in an attempt mano a mano threaten a post regular season strike which would see the players having collected all their per game salary but the owners not having collected their playoff game linked payments from the TV nets.

 

mid-80s job action- In what turned out to be a last gasp for conventional individual capitalism, the team owners simply beat the crap out of the plodding AFL-CIO style leadership by locking the players out before they got their per game pay checks. The owners instead brought in "replacement" players and the public remained interested enuf (the play level definitely dropped, but not so much that it wasn't interesting to stare at like a car crash on the highway for a few weeks) and without individual paychex the NFLPA crumbled as enuf high paid players crossed the line.

 

late-80s- however, once the AFL-CIO style leadership collapsed, a few of the players were smart enuf (like Gene Upshaw) to ally with some smart NYC lawyers and amid the heap of the collapsed union got enough of the savvy players to agree to threaten the NFL owners with decertifying the union.

 

This would have forced the NFL team owners to actually operate and individual teams to compete with each other signing individual players to personal service contracts. Under a total free market system, the owner able to attract the best players (usually the highest bidder)would build the best team. Howe4ver the ultimate result of such a free market would be difficult to predict at best and would depend on a chunk of teams being bad at building teams and going out of business.

 

A total free market in theory in forcing teams to get better (invest more)would produce the best teams. However, interestingly it is doubtful that a total free market would produce the highest profits or greater team stability for individual teams (the TV nets are most willing to invest big bucks for a stable marketplace).

 

Afraid of the uncertainty caused by a real free market, the team owners instead were more than willing to form a partnership with the NFLPA reflected in a Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA. All in all the individual owners recognized that they would make more $ in a system depending on a social compact than they would in a free market system.

 

mid 00s- The CBA came up for revision and things had progressed enuf that even before negotiations, Upshaw announced that the final agreement must give the players over 605 of the total NFL take.

 

It did.

 

The key point of all this is that in the new NFL the players are the majority partners and the partnership dictates results over individual team desires.

 

It does not matter what the owners want in terms of location, it matters what the NFL as a whole wants.

 

My guess is if the NFL wants the Bills in Buffalo then the team will remain here

[HopefulFuture]

 

My guess is if the NFL wants the Bills in Buffalo then the team will remain here

 

I'll fore go the rest of your post save this entry.

My guess is if the NFL didn't want to explore the Toronto market, they wouldn't have allowed games up in Toronto by Bills. Regular season games at that.

 

No one should be fooled here. That Toronot series had little to nothing to do with gauging or gaining market share from Toronto, it was a test run pure and simple. The out come is pretty easy to see, a team will need a permanent residence in Toronto to garner significant share of that market, as it vests the area in to the sport. I.E. These are the Toronto Bills, this is our team, type of atmosphere.

 

You can bet your bippy, it the Toronto group wins the bid, the Bills are gone in 2020. That should be a foregone conclusion by now.

All this talk about it being anything other wise is pure hog wash. Fans really need to come to their senses, I see much to much nonsense talk. It's a business decision and numbers are not on Buffalo's side when it comes to market viability against a Goliath like Toronto. Hell, the league tried twice to install teams in LA already, don't kid yourself, they'll move the team happily. If it doesn't work out, they know they can move it back, or elsewhere.

 

Wake up people, smell the coffee here.

[thebandit27]

 

 

I'll fore go the rest of your post save this entry.

My guess is if the NFL didn't want to explore the Toronto market, they wouldn't have allowed games up in Toronto by Bills. Regular season games at that.

 

No one should be fooled here. That Toronot series had little to nothing to do with gauging or gaining market share from Toronto, it was a test run pure and simple. The out come is pretty easy to see, a team will need a permanent residence in Toronto to garner significant share of that market, as it vests the area in to the sport. I.E. These are the Toronto Bills, this is our team, type of atmosphere.

 

You can bet your bippy, it the Toronto group wins the bid, the Bills are gone in 2020. That should be a foregone conclusion by now.

All this talk about it being anything other wise is pure hog wash. Fans really need to come to their senses, I see much to much nonsense talk. It's a business decision and numbers are not on Buffalo's side when it comes to market viability against a Goliath like Toronto. Hell, the league tried twice to install teams in LA already, don't kid yourself, they'll move the team happily. If it doesn't work out, they know they can move it back, or elsewhere.

 

Wake up people, smell the coffee here.

 

Full circle huh?

 

Two months ago you were doom and gloom

 

Last month you were practically guaranteeing a downtown stadium because "things had changed"

 

Now you're back to telling everyone to wake up and realize the team is moving

 

Full circle indeed

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Full circle huh?

 

Two months ago you were doom and gloom

 

Last month you were practically guaranteeing a downtown stadium because "things had changed"

 

Now you're back to telling everyone to wake up and realize the team is moving

 

Full circle indeed

Is this the same poster that claimed to have a whole bunch of info on a new stadium downtown about a month ago?

[HopefulFuture]

Full circle huh?

 

Two months ago you were doom and gloom

 

Last month you were practically guaranteeing a downtown stadium because "things had changed"

 

Now you're back to telling everyone to wake up and realize the team is moving

 

Full circle indeed

 

Is this the same poster that claimed to have a whole bunch of info on a new stadium downtown about a month ago?

 

Explain something to me for a moment if you would.

How does what I just posted about the intent of the Toronto Group have anything to do with what you just asked me?

 

My post is pretty clear, I'm sounding off caution about JBJ and his group and what their intent is. Is there something specific you wanted to ask me? Something about my post perhaps?

 

Are you implying that I stated that Toronto will win the bid? Is this your idea of attempting to revisionist my post in an effort to down play the situation?

 

Please, I'll sit back, while you explain yourself. Can't wait to hear.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

 

 

Explain something to me for a moment if you would.

How does what I just posted about the intent of the Toronto Group have anything to do with what you just asked me?

 

My post is pretty clear, I'm sounding off caution about JBJ and his group and what their intent is. Is there something specific you wanted to ask me? Something about my post perhaps?

 

Are you implying that I stated that Toronto will win the bid? Is this your idea of attempting to revisionist my post in an effort to down play the situation?

 

Please, I'll sit back, while you explain yourself. Can't wait to hear.

First of all the Toronto series generated an additional $8M in non shared revenue a year in addition to expanding the fan base. It was not a ploy as much as it was the Bills answer to the growing non shared revenues that teams with new stadiums were generating. There is a reason that we are hearing that the Bills were like the 20th most profitable team or whatever they were.

 

Secondly, when you come on this board dropping inside knowledge on new stadium plans as you did on June 13th only to do a 180 on the situation 5 weeks later, it is a hit to your credibility.

[Kelly the Dog]

One thing that I think needs to be put out there that I do not believe has been discussed is this:

 

It seems to me the ONLY reason that Jon Bon Jovi is viewed to be the bad guy and we think is lying to us and wants to move the team to Toronto is simply because he is associated with Tanenbaum, and now Rogers. There is nothing I know of in JBJ's past that really links him to Toronto, or not wanting to stay in Buffalo, or being a movie grubbing carpetbagger that only wants a big city or wanting to move the team.

 

He simply can't afford a team himself, knew he needed a moneybags/billionaire to back him, the Bills became the first team available in a little while, and the moneybags from Toronto likewise needed Bon Jovi's insider NFL connections (which to me are mostly because everyone loves to hang around rock stars).

 

We assume that he wants to move the team to Toronto simply because there is no chance in hell that Tanenbaum doesn't want to move the team to Toronto. And they are now partners.

 

But there is really nothing we know of that makes JBJ personally not want the team to stay in Buffalo. He is an American. From New Jersey for crissakes. He may, personally, think the Bills should stay in Buffalo. He just has a backer who 99.999% likely doesn't.

[thebandit27]

 

 

 

 

Explain something to me for a moment if you would.

How does what I just posted about the intent of the Toronto Group have anything to do with what you just asked me?

 

My post is pretty clear, I'm sounding off caution about JBJ and his group and what their intent is. Is there something specific you wanted to ask me? Something about my post perhaps?

 

Are you implying that I stated that Toronto will win the bid? Is this your idea of attempting to revisionist my post in an effort to down play the situation?

 

Please, I'll sit back, while you explain yourself. Can't wait to hear.

 

I don't need to "revisionist" your post.

 

A person that is as confident as you were about a downtown stadium and a Pegula/Golisano partnership would likely not bat an eyelash at this Toronto speculation.

 

The difference is profound...and confusing.

[KDIGGZ]

One thing that I think needs to be put out there that I do not believe has been discussed is this:

 

It seems to me the ONLY reason that Jon Bon Jovi is viewed to be the bad guy and we think is lying to us and wants to move the team to Toronto is simply because he is associated with Tanenbaum, and now Rogers. There is nothing I know of in JBJ's past that really links him to Toronto, or not wanting to stay in Buffalo, or being a movie grubbing carpetbagger that only wants a big city or wanting to move the team.

 

He simply can't afford a team himself, knew he needed a moneybags/billionaire to back him, the Bills became the first team available in a little while, and the moneybags from Toronto likewise needed Bon Jovi's insider NFL connections (which to me are mostly because everyone loves to hang around rock stars).

 

We assume that he wants to move the team to Toronto simply because there is no chance in hell that Tanenbaum doesn't want to move the team to Toronto. And they are now partners.

 

But there is really nothing we know of that makes JBJ personally not want the team to stay in Buffalo. He is an American. From New Jersey for crissakes. He may, personally, think the Bills should stay in Buffalo. He just has a backer who 99.999% likely doesn't.

So you think Tannenbaum is backing him out of the goodness of his heart and they talked Rogers into it because he has too much money and just feels like giving? Or maybe it's because they realize this is Toronto's best chance to get an NFL team. Everyone gets something out of this partnership

Edited July 23, 2014 by kdiggz

[Kelly the Dog]

So you think Tannenbaum is backing him out of the goodness of his heart and they talked Rogers into it because he has too much money and just feels like giving? Or maybe it's because they realize this is Toronto's best chance to get an NFL team. Everyone gets something out of this partnership

Of course. The point is only that there is nothing that would make anyone believe Bon Jovi doesn't want the Bills in Buffalo EXCEPT that the guy he went to for money is from Toronto. That is an important distinction. It's a huge issue. But Bon Jovi here is being made out to be evil when he very well might want the team to stay personally. We don't know what his real intentions are. He may LOVE Buffalo and the Bills, but the guy that gave him the financial credibility is from Toronto, so as a team, that is where they will want the franchise.

[dave mcbride]

For anyone who thinks the group won't move the team to Toronto: don't be naive. That's clearly and obviously their plan.

[Kirby Jackson]

Can we make this a public poll?

[TheFunPolice]

http://www.torontosu...t-for-the-bills

 

I don't have inside sources, but I can look at what people have said/done and draw conclusions based on that. This article from the Toronto Sun illustrates this group's intentions.

 

From the article linked above:

 

"When Rogers signed its first five-year deal with the Bills, a Rogers person told me what their ultimate game plan was: In his words, they had basically taken out a five-year life insurance policy on owner Wilson’s life. He was 89 at the time. He’s 94 now. Wilson is alive: It was Ted Rogers who passed away part-way through this arrangement.

 

And the petty and somewhat dirty politics of the arrangement have continued on. Years back, it was Paul Godfrey trying to bring the NFL to Toronto, but when Rogers got more involved, it was Phil Lind, the Cleveland Browns nut, who pushed Godfrey aside and brought Larry Tanenbaum into the mix. Tanenbaum has since disappeared from the scene and now Lind has been pushed aside in the Rogers rotation."

 

This is from the Toronto newspaper. So no, I do not believe that these men have ANY intentions other than saying all the right things now, getting their hands on the team, and then figuring out a way to get it to Toronto at the expiration of the lease. They have 5-6 years or so to figure it out. The fact that they are willing to STILL shell out hundreds of millions of dollars on the purchase of the team ought to tell you something. They have a dream, and billionaires don't often hear "no."

 

Also note the apparent dysfunction in the group. Is it any wonder that they are taking one last shot at finding a way to make the dream come true? Aligning with the NFL owners' new golden boy will help them down the road when it's time to call in some favors and change some minds in the league office.

Edited July 23, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[ET1062]

kdiggz and TheFunPolice, keep up the good fight! I am behind you 100%, not 110% because that is stupid!

 

Future owner? I think not!

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by ET1062

[TheFunPolice]

kdiggz and TheFunPolice, keep up the good fight! I am behind you 100%, not 110% because that is stupid!

 

Future owner? I think not!

 

 

Thank you. The Toronto group is a nightmare waiting to happen and I believe that Bills fans who defend them are just trying to convince themselves that it will be OK. I get it; none of us want to lose the team. But I begin to seriously check out the day they take over.

 

I will be angry (like many others) and probably post a lot about it for a while, then I'll take it as closure, move on, and find something else to occupy my time other than NFL football. I'll still watch games, but with the detached feeling that I watch NBA playoff games with. It's still fun, but there's no real emotion for me when a team wins/loses.

 

Of course, I have no illusions that my posting about it is going to change anything. Whatever happens is going to happen regardless of what any of us post.

 

Still, people need to advocate for common sense.

Edited July 23, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[ET1062]

Trust me, I know Bon Jon = Gone. Two Toronto Billionaires are not going to invest close to a Billion dollars so a washed up rock star can have a play toy in Buffalo, NY. What is in it for them? NOTHING!

[TheFunPolice]

I just hope this is a way to drive up the price since moving the team is next to impossible until the lease ends.

 

If it is 100% clear that a local buyer is favored, why overbid?

 

Sort of like the stadium negotiations:

 

New owner: I am stating today that I will 100% NEVER move the team. Also, I would like $500 million for a new stadium.

NY State: Gee, we just don't have the dough... economy and all....

New Owner: But I NEED it

NY State: or?

New Owner: .............

[thebandit27]

Show me one person that has defended them...I'll wait...

 

I do remember saying that they'll keep the team here because the NFL (and the Trust) has made it clear that that's the only option.

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

[Hplarrm]

Show me one person that has defended them...I'll wait...

 

I do remember saying that they'll keep the team here because the NFL (and the Trust) has made it clear that that's the only option.

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

Some get confused it seems because they see the truth that the NFL always does what the market says because that is how they make the most money.

 

However, many fail to understand that the market is not primarily the local gate, but the market is the TV audience which provides 2/3 of the cash the NFL takes in.

 

The NFL has been going through changes since the days of Art Modell when an owner could simply take his team wherever he (or Georgia Frontiere)wanted but now all the individual teams have contractually agreed that they will not override the fiscal interests of their partner owners for their own benefit.

 

The Bills are worth more to the rest of the league allowing them to sell membership in a club with an original AFL team than sell new franchises to join a club which is running away from its past. Even worse. Ralph has done us the favor of setting this up so any new team owner will have to commit to remaining in Buffalo or endure up to 7 years of death march as we Bills fans whine about losing our team and launch protests like the empty seat protest suggested here.

 

Do you really think that the new Bills owners will be a Toronto group which simply lies to their new partners, lie to the people of and then zip out of town (probably under cover of night) to set up shop in Toronto. This would be the worst possible advertising for the true NFL market which pays the bucksto the NFL, the TV networks.

 

I really doubt the team leaves as this would be walking away from 45,000 folks who spend real dollars for their season tickets, another 25,000 folks who will buy tickets for a winning team, all the business relationships with local advertisers and 100s of millions in taxpayer subsidies for the potential (good but not certain) of marginally bigger $ in Toronto.

Aqain, given a choice between making a lot of money(from Buffalo) or even more money (from Toronto) the NFL will actually choose both. They do not need to choose between the two as arguably the Toronto population based and # of corporate HQs is more like NYC in population and corporate HQs than Buffalo. Toronto might be able to support 2 teams on their own and dividing the Greater Toronto Area market into two between the Bills and a Toronto team probably makes sense. It actually takes more time to drive to Toronto and park from Hamilton, ON than it takes to drive to Orchard Park.

 

The Bills ain't going nowhere. The NFL does not like to walk away from money (ask the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Ravens or even the Houstin Texans).

[TheFunPolice]

Show me one person that has defended them...I'll wait...

 

I do remember saying that they'll keep the team here because the NFL (and the Trust) has made it clear that that's the only option.

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

 

http://boards.buffal...-be-a-bad-owner

 

The OP and a handful of others in the thread I posted from the Bills official website.

 

You seem to think I have this agenda to attack or discredit you and Kirby, and take every post I make as some personal shot against one of you. I was not even referencing either of you in my post above.

 

I agree that the team stays until the lease is over but I don't see how you force an owner to stay absent a new lease (and probably new stadium). IF they buy the team and there is some clause that they can NEVER move it then any stadium negotiations or lease extensions become irrelevant, and I'm sorry but if you think the NFL will go for that you are mistaken in my opinion because it is not how they operate.

Edited July 23, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[May Day 10]

If you read between the lines, Kirby is agreeing with you.

[papazoid]

eventually, at some point, a Toronto based group will move this team to Canada.

 

I do NOT trust them.

[thebandit27]

 

 

http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?491180-JBJ-may-not-be-a-bad-owner

 

The OP and a handful of others in the thread I posted from the Bills official website.

 

You seem to think I have this agenda to attack or discredit you and Kirby, and take every post I make as some personal shot against one of you. I was not even referencing either of you in my post above.

 

I'm sorry but I do not believe in the Toronto group's supposedly new intentions no matter what anyone says, because they have had the exact opposite intentions up until it became politically toxic to be honest about them.

 

You alluded to Bills' fans who defend them, and so I asked who did so.

 

I'm not a member of any other boards, so it would make sense that I would assume that you were speaking of those on this board with that comment.

 

I only take personally that which blatantly appears so--and surely you'd admit that some (not all) of your comments were rather pointed in nature.

 

The misstep you're making here is that they didn't shift gears for appearance's sake; thy shifted gears because they want to be NFL owners and aren't going to get this team if they intend to move it.

 

At the most basic, simple level, we have the lease document that does not allow the team to even discuss relocation during the lease term; this alone would be a major hurdle. Combine that with everything else we know to be true--relocation fees, ownership approval, relocation approval, and without any "inside" info the path to relocation is littered with hurdles.

 

Combine that with what some folks with info have been told--that neither the NFL nor the Trust will sell to anyone with intentions of moving the team, and will want documented assurances of such, and it leads to one conclusion. I'll leave it for my boy tsnbd to put a button on it...

[HopefulFuture]

For anyone who thinks the group won't move the team to Toronto: don't be naive. That's clearly and obviously their plan.

 

This individual gets it.

Reading between the lines is a nifty thing to do, what brought my attention to the JBJ situation was the teaming up with a Toronto based group combined with the series the Bills attempted to instill there. For those stating it was revenue generating, I merely chuckle. A few million is a drop in the bucket when you run the demographics on populace in the greater Toronto region. Merchandise alone will exceed 20 or more of the current NFL franchises simply due to numbers.

Then there is the comments from Jerry Jones, not just another pundit, but an NFL owner who clearly supports JBJ and his drive to own a team. Here is the quote from Jones that really raised some eyebrows:

 

"We certainly want to create every opportunity we can to involve more fans. At the end of the day, it's my town against your town, Cowboys against whoever we're playing. To the end that we can create more rivalries and involve larger viewing audiences, populations, that's something that you have to look at when you get a chance to, and that's the debate between Buffalo and Toronto."

 

As you can clearly see, Jones does not support one way or the other keeping the team in Buffalo, he clearly makes a point in this comment however on viewer audiences and rivalries. Toronto has the ability to garner more monies due to those populace demographics I mentioned above, and not by importing the Bills via TV viewership, but by importing the Bills to Toronto themselves.

 

You must look at it this way, it's easier for the NFL to grab a smaller Buffalo TV viewership, even if it's downsized by the teams move because Buffalo has already been saturated by the NFL due to a team being here. They are aware they will lose fan base for the NFL product over all here. But the Toronto market more than 10 fold makes up for the difference in lose and expands the NFL product. This is simple economics here, there is no loyalty from any of the owners to Buffalo, that went bye bye with Ralph Wilson.

 

The Toronto Group has the ability to bid, and bid high. The only 2 individuals with local vested interests in the region that can go up against them or Pegula and Galisano. It will most likely come down to a Pegula vs JBJ group situation I would imagine. But if I'm a Buffalo native, and the JBJ group is saying they have no intention of moving the team after all that's gone on and a member of that group is entrenched in Toronto, I wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths.

[thebandit27]

This individual gets it.

Reading between the lines is a nifty thing to do, what brought my attention to the JBJ situation was the teaming up with a Toronto based group combined with the series the Bills attempted to instill there. For those stating it was revenue generating, I merely chuckle. A few million is a drop in the bucket when you run the demographics on populace in the greater Toronto region. Merchandise alone will exceed 20 or more of the current NFL franchises simply due to numbers.

Then there is the comments from Jerry Jones, not just another pundit, but an NFL owner who clearly supports JBJ and his drive to own a team. Here is the quote from Jones that really raised some eyebrows:

 

"We certainly want to create every opportunity we can to involve more fans. At the end of the day, it's my town against your town, Cowboys against whoever we're playing. To the end that we can create more rivalries and involve larger viewing audiences, populations, that's something that you have to look at when you get a chance to, and that's the debate between Buffalo and Toronto."

 

As you can clearly see, Jones does not support one way or the other keeping the team in Buffalo, he clearly makes a point in this comment however on viewer audiences and rivalries. Toronto has the ability to garner more monies due to those populace demographics I mentioned above, and not by importing the Bills via TV viewership, but by importing the Bills to Toronto themselves.

 

You must look at it this way, it's easier for the NFL to grab a smaller Buffalo TV viewership, even if it's downsized by the teams move because Buffalo has already been saturated by the NFL due to a team being here. They are aware they will lose fan base for the NFL product over all here. But the Toronto market more than 10 fold makes up for the difference in lose and expands the NFL product. This is simple economics here, there is no loyalty from any of the owners to Buffalo, that went bye bye with Ralph Wilson.

 

The Toronto Group has the ability to bid, and bid high. The only 2 individuals with local vested interests in the region that can go up against them or Pegula and Galisano. It will most likely come down to a Pegula vs JBJ group situation I would imagine. But if I'm a Buffalo native, and the JBJ group is saying they have no intention of moving the team after all that's gone on and a member of that group is entrenched in Toronto, I wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths.

 

That bold statement is not accurate in the least.

[HopefulFuture]

Some get confused it seems because they see the truth that the NFL always does what the market says because that is how they make the most money.

 

However, many fail to understand that the market is not primarily the local gate, but the market is the TV audience which provides 2/3 of the cash the NFL takes in.

 

The NFL has been going through changes since the days of Art Modell when an owner could simply take his team wherever he (or Georgia Frontiere)wanted but now all the individual teams have contractually agreed that they will not override the fiscal interests of their partner owners for their own benefit.

 

The Bills are worth more to the rest of the league allowing them to sell membership in a club with an original AFL team than sell new franchises to join a club which is running away from its past. Even worse. Ralph has done us the favor of setting this up so any new team owner will have to commit to remaining in Buffalo or endure up to 7 years of death march as we Bills fans whine about losing our team and launch protests like the empty seat protest suggested here.

 

Do you really think that the new Bills owners will be a Toronto group which simply lies to their new partners, lie to the people of and then zip out of town (probably under cover of night) to set up shop in Toronto. This would be the worst possible advertising for the true NFL market which pays the bucksto the NFL, the TV networks.

 

I really doubt the team leaves as this would be walking away from 45,000 folks who spend real dollars for their season tickets, another 25,000 folks who will buy tickets for a winning team, all the business relationships with local advertisers and 100s of millions in taxpayer subsidies for the potential (good but not certain) of marginally bigger $ in Toronto.

Aqain, given a choice between making a lot of money(from Buffalo) or even more money (from Toronto) the NFL will actually choose both. They do not need to choose between the two as arguably the Toronto population based and # of corporate HQs is more like NYC in population and corporate HQs than Buffalo. Toronto might be able to support 2 teams on their own and dividing the Greater Toronto Area market into two between the Bills and a Toronto team probably makes sense. It actually takes more time to drive to Toronto and park from Hamilton, ON than it takes to drive to Orchard Park.

 

The Bills ain't going nowhere. The NFL does not like to walk away from money (ask the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Ravens or even the Houstin Texans).

 

This is where your incorrect in so far as moving a team is concerned. The NFL has documented history of doing so, both in St. Louis and Oakland. They aren't interested in an established market if there is a larger market to be had and they've shown more than willing to make that happen.

 

You are however correct on viewership. The real money is indeed in those Television contracts to be sure. And when you look at the market demographics of Toronto vs Buffalo, the numbers speak for themselves. Is it a gamble? Absolutely it is. But in the end they have proven in the past that as a group (the owners) they are willing to take that risk. I for one am very excited about Pegula's silence. I suspect your going to see some sort of consortium come out of his side of the situation in an effort to match any offer which is larger than he is willing to put in alone. I believe he has the ability to do so. But this thread is about the Toronto group, and as of now, there is a very cheap out clause for that group in a handful of years. I have every belief they'll use it.

 

That bold statement is not accurate in the least.

 

LOL, ok, you believe what you wish, money talks, bull **** walks. These individuals didn't gather and maintain wealth by leaving money sitting on the table. You are completely blind if you believe for a second these owners aren't financially driven. The breed RW was is rare, very rare.

[KDIGGZ]

Not only is there no loyalty to Buffalo, there is STRONG loyalty to Canada. It would be bad business for Rogers and Tannenbaum to own an NFL team and NOT bring it to Canada. There are fans in Canada who are their customers that would be mad that they were denying them a chance to have their own NFL team. Think about it. This is Toronto's and Canada's only chance to have a team

Edited July 23, 2014 by kdiggz

[thebandit27]

 

LOL, ok, you believe what you wish, money talks, bull **** walks. These individuals didn't gather and maintain wealth by leaving money sitting on the table. You are completely blind if you believe for a second these owners aren't financially driven. The breed RW was is rare, very rare.

 

I never said that they weren't financially driven; I disputed the idea that there is no loyalty to WNY post-Ralph. That statement is patently incorrect, as I believe you'll discover in short order.

 

As for the financials, I would hope that you know (since you're sounding off so liberally) that the majority of the NFL's money comes from TV contracts...would it be prudent to relocate a team from the 11th largest TV market in the league?

 

Also, I'm curious to know why you believe it's simply highest number wins?

 

And if you don't mind, please tell me where the Toronto group would plan to play games in 6 years, when the lease prevents them from even discussing the possibility of relocation or a stadium outside of the WNY area during that time frame?

[Kirby Jackson]

There is a difference between what they want to do and what they are going to have to do in order to get the team. That is what Bandit and I have been saying. They would love to move the team to Toronto but they will not be able to buy the team if that is the case. No one is dumb enough to take them at their word. If they want this team they are going to be locked into WNY just like anyone else that wants the team.

[thebandit27]

Not only is there no loyalty to Buffalo, there is STRONG loyalty to Canada. It would be bad business for Rogers and Tannenbaum to own an NFL team and NOT bring it to Canada. There are fans in Canada who are their customers that would be mad that they were denying them a chance to have their own NFL team. Think about it. This is Toronto's and Canada's only chance to have a team

 

Such strong loyalty that they stood idly by and allowed Buffalo to pull their only NFL game out of there this year?

 

There's some serious double-talk going on in this thread.

 

There is a difference between what they want to do and what they are going to have to do in order to get the team. That is what Bandit and I have been saying. They would love to move the team to Toronto but they will not be able to buy the team if that is the case. No one is dumb enough to take them at their word. If they want this team they are going to be locked into WNY just like anyone else that wants the team.

 

You're naive and you love JBJ

[KDIGGZ]

Such strong loyalty that they stood idly by and allowed Buffalo to pull their only NFL game out of there this year?

 

There's some serious double-talk going on in this thread.

 

 

 

You're naive and you love JBJ

For 1 season, they said it wasn't dead. And nobody in Toronto likes the Bills because it's not really their team...yet. It would be like if the Toronto Raptors played 1 game a year in Buffalo. We would be like "who cares?"

[HopefulFuture]

I never said that they weren't financially driven; I disputed the idea that there is no loyalty to WNY post-Ralph. That statement is patently incorrect, as I believe you'll discover in short order.

 

As for the financials, I would hope that you know (since you're sounding off so liberally) that the majority of the NFL's money comes from TV contracts...would it be prudent to relocate a team from the 11th largest TV market in the league?

 

Also, I'm curious to know why you believe it's simply highest number wins?

 

And if you don't mind, please tell me where the Toronto group would plan to play games in 6 years, when the lease prevents them from even discussing the possibility of relocation or a stadium outside of the WNY area during that time frame?

 

Your statement on loyalty for WNY for the Toronto group has no backing considering the flip flopping that has been done by some of the groups members. They were searching and doing due diligence on stadium sites as late as this past winter. Re: suntimes article.

Are you implying because they have done a 180 verbally that this search has ceased? If so, I'd like a documented source, thank you.

 

Your 11th largest viewership market is also deceptive, that is per capita, and the last time I checked (RE: 2010 census) Toronto is a market of 5.5 million people (surely to be over 6 million by now) and Buffalo, well, not so much. Care to take another look at this comment?

 

I never stated the highest number wins, that is coming from you, not from me. I have stated I believe it will come down to a locally vested entity (whether it be a team up or individual) and the Toronto group given the financial resources at their disposal combined with what I feel is their commitment to see this process through with counter bids. I don't see the team selling for a penny under 1.5 billion to be honest.

 

Now the stadium question with the time lines is an interesting one, but you do not have to be directly involved in building a facility, all you have to do is have one available when the lease is up. Here is a good example, Jeremy Jacobs can not own the Bills, but, he is more than interested in getting a new stadium put up here. He put a great deal of money in to what is now known as First Niagara Center when it was built. That was one of the catalyst that helped keep the Sabres here. I am sure a similar situation can be achieved in Toronto, a 3rd party builds the stadium while the Toronto group waits, they don't have to be involved. It's not uncommon for varying parties to come together for a common cause without being linked directly.

 

Such strong loyalty that they stood idly by and allowed Buffalo to pull their only NFL game out of there this year?

 

There's some serious double-talk going on in this thread.

 

 

 

You're naive and you love JBJ

 

I believe they pulled the Toronto series for other reasons. You'll learn about them as this process finishes up.

 

There is a difference between what they want to do and what they are going to have to do in order to get the team. That is what Bandit and I have been saying. They would love to move the team to Toronto but they will not be able to buy the team if that is the case. No one is dumb enough to take them at their word. If they want this team they are going to be locked into WNY just like anyone else that wants the team.

 

And this is where bandit, yourself and individuals such as myself disagree. There is no document keeping the team here at all. There is nothing that states on paper the the Buffalo Bills could not be moved period, end of conversation. There are built in dynamics to the lease agreement along with varying parties stands on are on the issue, but even in the lease agreement it's a penalty, not a "do not move clause". I have read reports from reporters on some undisclosed rumblings of keeping the team in WNY, but they are merely rumblings. Until I see something on paper, as others have pointed out, signed, sealed and delivered that the Bills will sign a new lease, either with the Ralph (this is where I come in, it won't be the Ralph, rest assured) or a new stadium, then if the Toronto group gets the bid it's every bit a reality they could move the team. And since I've been touting the financial side of this, they'll most likely move it if the do get it in the clause year or at the end of the lease. Either way I don't see them keeping the team here.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

And this is where bandit, yourself and individuals such as myself disagree. There is no document keeping the team here at all. There is nothing that states on paper the the Buffalo Bills could not be moved period, end of conversation. There are built in dynamics to the lease agreement along with varying parties stands on are on the issue, but even in the lease agreement it's a penalty, not a "do not move clause". I have read reports from reporters on some undisclosed rumblings of keeping the team in WNY, but they are merely rumblings. Until I see something on paper, as others have pointed out, signed, sealed and delivered that the Bills will sign a new lease, either with the Ralph (this is where I come in, it won't be the Ralph, rest assured) or a new stadium, then if the Toronto group gets the bid it's every bit a reality they could move the team. And since I've been touting the financial side of this, they'll most likely move it if the do get it in the clause year or at the end of the lease. Either way I don't see them keeping the team here.

I have not personally seen the terms of the trust but have been assured that the Bills will be here long term. It will all play out soon enough but that is where the discrepancy is. Just because we have not seen it does not mean that it does not exist.

 

My guess is (and this part is a guess) that if a WNY buyer hits a certain threshold bid wise (maybe $900M in this case) they win the bid unless the bidder with the higher number commits to WNY for the same term and on the same terms. The change of course from this group and others has come as they have learned the rules of the trust and the active market for the team.

[thebandit27]

Your statement on loyalty for WNY for the Toronto group has no backing considering the flip flopping that has been done by some of the groups members. They were searching and doing due diligence on stadium sites as late as this past winter. Re: suntimes article.

Are you implying because they have done a 180 verbally that this search has ceased? If so, I'd like a documented source, thank you.

 

I made no statement about loyalty to WNY from the Toronto group. For the 3rd time I will directly tell you that the group would indeed like to move the team, but they will not be awarded the team unless they offer a documented guarantee to keep the team here. This is the reason for the 180; what, again, is so hard to understand about that?

 

Also, for a guy that was so sure about a downtown stadium a month ago, you seem to be in full-on panic mode now...why don't you enlighten us as to why?

 

Your 11th largest viewership market is also deceptive, that is per capita, and the last time I checked (RE: 2010 census) Toronto is a market of 5.5 million people (surely to be over 6 million by now) and Buffalo, well, not so much. Care to take another look at this comment?

 

Of course it's based on population. According to the NFL's demographics, Buffalo is a 1.1 million populace, nearly the same size as New Orleans and Jacksonville and 3x the size of Green Bay.

 

Toronto can be as big a market as it is, and still not draw enough ratings to make it worth moving there. New York City, which almost undoubtedly has more football fans than Toronto, draws the lowest ratings in the league. Are we supposed to assume that there are more football fans per capita in Toronto than in NYC so as to make it a market so valuable that the NFL will seek to move New York State's only team?

 

Why don't you reconsider the argument? Population does not make ratings...Los Angeles has lost 2 football teams in my lifetime.

 

I never stated the highest number wins, that is coming from you, not from me. I have stated I believe it will come down to a locally vested entity (whether it be a team up or individual) and the Toronto group given the financial resources at their disposal combined with what I feel is their commitment to see this process through with counter bids. I don't see the team selling for a penny under 1.5 billion to be honest.

 

You strongly implied it here:

 

 

This is where your incorrect in so far as moving a team is concerned. The NFL has documented history of doing so, both in St. Louis and Oakland. They aren't interested in an established market if there is a larger market to be had and they've shown more than willing to make that happen.

 

You are however correct on viewership. The real money is indeed in those Television contracts to be sure. And when you look at the market demographics of Toronto vs Buffalo, the numbers speak for themselves. Is it a gamble? Absolutely it is. But in the end they have proven in the past that as a group (the owners) they are willing to take that risk. I for one am very excited about Pegula's silence. I suspect your going to see some sort of consortium come out of his side of the situation in an effort to match any offer which is larger than he is willing to put in alone. I believe he has the ability to do so. But this thread is about the Toronto group, and as of now, there is a very cheap out clause for that group in a handful of years. I have every belief they'll use it.

 

 

 

LOL, ok, you believe what you wish, money talks, bull **** walks. These individuals didn't gather and maintain wealth by leaving money sitting on the table. You are completely blind if you believe for a second these owners aren't financially driven. The breed RW was is rare, very rare.

 

If that's not what you meant, fine, but then why are you worried?

 

Now the stadium question with the time lines is an interesting one, but you do not have to be directly involved in building a facility, all you have to do is have one available when the lease is up. Here is a good example, Jeremy Jacobs can not own the Bills, but, he is more than interested in getting a new stadium put up here. He put a great deal of money in to what is now known as First Niagara Center when it was built. That was one of the catalyst that helped keep the Sabres here. I am sure a similar situation can be achieved in Toronto, a 3rd party builds the stadium while the Toronto group waits, they don't have to be involved. It's not uncommon for varying parties to come together for a common cause without being linked directly.

 

So you think the NFL, the County, and the State are simply going to turn a blind eye to a stadium being constructed in the Toronto area that has "no connection" to the NFL team currently playing in Buffalo?

 

You cannot possibly believe that.

 

If so much as a shovel touches the ground you can believe there will be action on the part of local legislature, and they have the ammo to win the legal battle as I'm sure you've seen if you've read the lease.

 

I believe they pulled the Toronto series for other reasons. You'll learn about them as this process finishes up.

 

No need to be ambiguous, feel free to expound.