Mr. WEO Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I guess that I am not articulating my point very well so I apologize for that. I will give it one last try: The Bills are certainly worth more outside of WNY. I don't think that anyone is debating that. What is being debated is whether or not the Bills can be successful in WNY long term and the answer is yes. I was simply trying to explain how it would be looked at from the inside out. The Bills know the economics of WNY but at the same time they do not need 300,000 people to buy PSLs. You may have 300,000 people in LA that WOULD buy them but at the end of the day you are selling 65,000 seats whether you are in LA or WNY. You can obviously charge more in LA. The point that I have been trying to make is that the Bills know exactly what they will need in terms of revenue from PSLs and have a plan for how they will target the universe that can afford it. They have been developing the wealthier areas in the region to make sure that they pick up some of the slack that will be created when certain season ticket holders drop off because they can no longer afford it. A lot of those people will decrease their number of tickets or join with other groups. The fans will still be engaged but at a lower level. My last point is that the economic landscape of WNY that these "experts" keep commenting on is the most overrated issue. They do not need everyone!! They need enough people to support the team and that's it. Obviously, they can make more elsewhere but that is not the issue being argued. There are lots of obstacles in place that will make moving the team difficult. Maybe this begs the following questions: where are these people right now and why aren't they buying up all the season tickets this season? Why are they waiting for for 6 or more years from now to invest their wealth in the Bills? What has held them back t this pointand how have they been convinced to pay in the future? In other words, why is there a "plan in place" to tap these people in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Maybe this begs the following questions: where are these people right now and why aren't they buying up all the season tickets this season? Why are they waiting for for 6 or more years from now to invest their wealth in the Bills? What has held them back t this pointand how have they been convinced to pay in the future? In other words, why is there a "plan in place" to tap these people in the future? The point that I was making regarding Canada is that these people did not necessarily grow up Bills fans. It is just recently that the Bills merchandise, coverage, etc... became more extensive than other NFL teams. You were just as likely to get Cowboys coverage as Bills coverage in St. Catherine's (or wherever). It usually takes a generation to grow fans so obviously we are not there yet with Canada. Rochester is a little different. There were kids that were 10 years old when training camp went there that are now 27 years old (or whatever) that were pretty much raised with the Bills as the local team. In addition, there is not much prime inventory in RWS. There are a segment of people that will only buy seats if the perfect location is available. You would actually be surprised how specific some people are (and it is a way larger universe than people know). That isn't everyone but there are a few thousand tickets in that universe (that's a conservative estimate). The new stadium will also be a different environment that caters more to an upper scale fanbase. Corporate tickets for the Bills are obviously low compared to the rest of the league but that is not 100% function of the market. The game day experience at RWS is not conducive to client entertainment. This will be a focus as well I am sure with expanded networking opportunities, facilities for entertaining (pregame, halftime & post game), concierge services, etc... These are just a few things off the top of my head that are no brainers to the people at OBD but never once mentioned by the doom and gloom hacks analyzing the team's future. Again, I am in now way insinuating that the revenues will be on par with Toronto or LA but that they can certainly obtain the support that they need to be successful in WNY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Is it possible that we have subsidies and onerous taxes at the same time? If so, might that have something to do with our two-party system where both parties take turns being in power? Without being political…..BOOM!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) The facts: -A new stadium will be coming and has always been the plan after 2020 * * * * * * The Bills have been preparing and planning this for years. . . . Admittedly the quote below is from 2005, but most 86 year old millionaires (which accurately described Ralph's status in 2005) are fairly set in their ways. Maybe Ralph just didn't get the memo about the team's long-standing plans to build a new stadium in a market where he was often crying for supplemental revenue sharing from the other owners: http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2005/05/20050516/Other-News/In-Profile-Bills-Owner-Ralph-Wilson.aspx Wilson blames the new stadiums for generating local money that has created the wide differences in revenue, portraying their construction as a threat, not as a sign of progress. "People tune in to see the stars, they want to see the Mannings, the Vicks, the Favres," he said, referring to the quarterbacks Peyton, Michael and Brett, of the Colts, Falcons and Packers, respectively, all teams in small to midsized markets. "Frankly, they don't care what kind of stadium they go to, they go to see the games. It has gotten out of hand." Maybe you think it would have been wise for the Bills to plan for a new stadium, and maybe you're right about the wisdom of doing that, but I don't think Ralph saw it that way. I suppose you must think Ralph, based on his quoted comments, was an uneducated, "gloom and doom hack." Edited June 2, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) Admittedly the quote below is from 2005, but most 86 year old millionaires (which accurately described Ralph's status in 2005) are fairly set in their ways. Maybe Ralph just didn't get the memo about the team's long-standing plans to build a new stadium in a market where he was often crying for supplemental revenue sharing from the other owners: http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2005/05/20050516/Other-News/In-Profile-Bills-Owner-Ralph-Wilson.aspx Maybe you think it would have been wise for the Bills to plan for a new stadium, and maybe you're right about the wisdom of doing that, but I don't think Ralph saw it that way. I suppose you must think Ralph, based on his quoted comments, was an uneducated, "gloom and doom hack." This was Ralph wisely fighting the new CBA. Those new stadiums were generating nonshared revenues that would drive the cap. He was well aware that his stadium could not make that kind of money so he was trying to keep the playing field fair. He also fought for those revenues to be shared but didn't win the battles with the Jerry Jones' of the world. Ralph saw the changing landscape of the NFL and was doing his best to not create have and have nots. This article does absolutely zero to dispel my point. If anything, it actually accentuates what I keep saying. Edited June 2, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I don't know which is the right thread to put this, but thought it was interesting relative to Miami trying to get public funds just to renovate their stadium and how it would be easier for them if there was threat of them leaving... apparently ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk · 1h Dolphins close to a stadium renovation "deal" that will be peanuts compared to what the Dolphins originally wanted http://wp.me/p14QSB-9uUn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Apparently you missed it over the last bunch of years, the team can't even come close to selling out its premium seating like other teams do. This team can't even sell out regular season games at face value without manufacturing sellouts, last season it was one non-sellout and four "aided" sellouts, you think that by raising the prices by charging people a $5K seat license, or whatever it would be, will sell more tix? Seriously? They, the team, has already expressed difficulties selling luxury suites. The world doesn't revolve around you in this way. Many fans can probably "afford" them, but who wants to go watch a team consistently play uninspired football? Why would any true fan be content with that on a consistent basis? The point you are missing here is largely one of demographics, marketing, and old fashioned supply and demand. Many forget that the Bills had trouble selling out late season contests during the Super Bowl glory years. The team was great, so the obvious next reason would be the weather. That has not changed. The general atmosphere at the games has. So poor weather , no dome or retractable roof facility, and an undesirable element at the games conspires to keep a sizable portion of upmarket fans at home. The solution? A climate controlled stadium, and less supply of tickets via fewer seats and higher prices to keep the riff raff out and bring the deep pockets in. Tickets are so widely available through secondary market and are so cheap that you get more drunk rowdys than ever. With less seats to fill, this market has more than enough folks that can afford to attend games. There just are not currently enough compelling reasons for them to get off the couch, so they stay home. That is the market the Bills need to reach, their current marketing setup caters to Joe Average. That must change for the next owner(s) to keep the team viable. And what is the PSL license fee in Buffalo going to be? What would it be in Toronto? Think that through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ1 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Mike Rodak @mikerodak 59s In our ESPN poll (http://es.pn/1k8mdZ0), 51% say they would consider Bills PSLs based on cost. 33% say "no" entirely. Never, would be my answer, even if i could afford it, which i can't. I don't believe the 50% yes figure is real, either. Edited June 8, 2014 by AJ1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I don't know which is the right thread to put this, but thought it was interesting relative to Miami trying to get public funds just to renovate their stadium and how it would be easier for them if there was threat of them leaving... apparently ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk · 1h Dolphins close to a stadium renovation "deal" that will be peanuts compared to what the Dolphins originally wanted http:// wp.me/p14QSB-9uU n I got bored this weekend and was watching some pre World Cup soccer and the England/Honduras friendly was on. There was a delay because of thunder storms so they got the stadium manager(?) on to interview and they were asking about why the stadium wasn't covered considering the new baseball stadium is. Anyways, long story short, he says they are considering a roof as part of the renovation, or at least covered seating. Seemed pretty confident about it. I think that says a lot that even a warm weather team is considering a covered stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Regarding PSL's, they are not fun, but I'm unclear on other teams. What the Bucs did when they had PSL's in order to build Ray Jay was the cost of an additional season ticket cost. It was then discounted over 10 years so as long as you kept your seats for 10 years, then you get that money back. Again, it is a significant investment, and you basically have to commit for 10 years, but the actual cost does not go up. The Bucs count on people not being able to commit for those 10 years which is where they make that extra money. Other teams may do it differently so I only have one example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 6/9/14 - NY LT. GOVERNOR BOB DUFFY WGR INTERVIEW <19:54> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Did Duffy have anything interesting to say? As far as PSLs, Id be open to it. if its an acute $5K cost, maybe not. But if they spread it out and created a few extra perks/incentives I would probably be on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Did Duffy have anything interesting to say? As far as PSLs, Id be open to it. if its an acute $5K cost, maybe not. But if they spread it out and created a few extra perks/incentives I would probably be on board. Something I hadn't considered about the PSLs in a new stadium: If it's a 60-65K seat stadium vs 73,000, you're talking sellouts most of the time -- unless the Bills are just dreadful. And even then a new stadium usually means a bit of a honeymoon period where there are sellouts regardless. It's going to be pretty easy to sell a ticket now and then at a premium, instead of eating them or taking a loss when you can't make a game. Might be easier than first thought to defray that cost, is all I'm thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Yes. I also believe if the Bills became a legit Division contender we would see a good wave of "bandwagoners" from all over paying top dollar for 2nd market tickets and as a result we would see a rush on Season Tickets. Much like what happened with the Sabres in the mid-late 00's. It would be perfect if something like that happened just preceding the opening of a new facility and PSLs are part of the cost. Especially with less seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Did Duffy have anything interesting to say? @WGR550 Lt. Governor Bob Duffy coming up next on WGR to talk Bills' future/stadium Duffy: "Everybody realizes what the Bills mean to Western New York" Duffy: "I'm in the 90 percent to 100 percent range about the Bills staying in Western New York" Duffy: at this point state is agnostic as far as location of a possible new stadium. state isnt pushing for new site right now Duffy said he does not know specifics of what is written in the trust but he thinks their mission is to get the most money for the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Check out the upgrades to the Jags digs... also I think they give you 2 free beers with each ticket and you can watch RedZone on the Jumbotron Poolside cabanas... Awesome pic.twitter.com/3dVDw7hkPN The new Bills stadiums should have hot tubs! Edited June 9, 2014 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Check out the upgrades to the Jags digs... also I think they give you 2 free beers with each ticket and you can watch RedZone on the Jumbotron Poolside cabanas... Awesome pic.twitter.com/3dVDw7hkPN The new Bills stadiums should have hot tubs! Mixed company, beer, and hot tubs....No possible bad outcomes in scenarios like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Mixed company, beer, and hot tubs....No possible bad outcomes in scenarios like this. I wonder if Blake Bortles' GF will be hanging out there too as extra fan incentive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 The point you are missing here is largely one of demographics, marketing, and old fashioned supply and demand. Many forget that the Bills had trouble selling out late season contests during the Super Bowl glory years. They didn't have nearly as much trouble selling out as they do today. Also, you didn't have benefactors buying tickets to save four games from being blacked out every season. They may have struggled from time to time, but not like they're doing now. We count only one non-sellout last season, but four were "rescued" and would have been blackouts if someone hadnt' stepped in to buy the remaining tix. I don't understand what this had to do with my point. I was talking about how PSLs won't sell and how luxury suites have already struggled. Having a new stadium isn't going to change that. Fans don't go to see a stadium, they go to see their team. No matter how you slice it Buffalo is hardly a great market by modern NFL standards. I agree that those standards suck, but they are what they are and it's a fact that the NFL revolves around money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Ticket revenues are shared between home and visiting teams. Is there any rational reason why revenues from luxury boxes aren't shared as well? The ratio of the split might be different for luxury boxes, but 100%/0% isn't the only reasonable figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Ticket revenues are shared between home and visiting teams. Is there any rational reason why revenues from luxury boxes aren't shared as well? The ratio of the split might be different for luxury boxes, but 100%/0% isn't the only reasonable figure. The reason is because the Arizona Cardinals didn't have suite revenue (or substantial enough) prior to their new stadium. It was argued that teams shouldn't have to share with them if they weren't going to be sharing with everyone else. Edited June 9, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 They didn't have nearly as much trouble selling out as they do today. Also, you didn't have benefactors buying tickets to save four games from being blacked out every season. They may have struggled from time to time, but not like they're doing now. We count only one non-sellout last season, but four were "rescued" and would have been blackouts if someone hadnt' stepped in to buy the remaining tix. I don't understand what this had to do with my point. I was talking about how PSLs won't sell and how luxury suites have already struggled. Having a new stadium isn't going to change that. Fans don't go to see a stadium, they go to see their team. No matter how you slice it Buffalo is hardly a great market by modern NFL standards. I agree that those standards suck, but they are what they are and it's a fact that the NFL revolves around money. My point is that while Buffalo may not be the dream market of an NFL owner, it's good enough. In the current digs, you may be correct about PSL"s. That's where the retractable roof facility with lower seating capacity comes in. While fans do not go to " see" a stadium, it has an impact on their enjoyment. The potential for bitter cold or wet weather mixed with lowest common denominator drunk fans keeps many of your "target market" at home in the comfy confines of their living room with a 90 inch led HDTV. The current stadium does not fit the current NFL model of catering to the more affluent fan. There are plenty of those in the Bills area. You just have to go get them. The Bills do not currently do this, as they have nothing to sell them. So their current target is reached via the lowest average ticket price in the NFL. But potential owners and Goodell know that this has to change going forward. These fans are the Bills future here. The way to reach them is with a climate controlled facility surrounded by folks who are more like them. Fewer seats limits supply in secondary market and keeps prices higher. That is the new business model, and the new stadium is integral to it. Oh, and the luxury suites are a different problem, stemming from the lack of large corporations headquartered in the area. Not sure how that will be resolved, but perhaps a less spartan luxury suite that a new facility can provide will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Duffy: 90 to 100% Sure New Owner Keeps Bills in WNYl New York Lieutenant Governor Robert Duffy said he's 90 to 100 percent sure a new owner would keep the Bills in Western New York, during an interview Monday with WGR sports radio. Embedded WGRZ Video in link (Schumer). Edited June 10, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Mixed company, beer, and hot tubs....No possible bad outcomes in scenarios like this. The reported $250 per ticket for that part of the stadium (pool and cabana access) should keep the majority of the duval county riff-raff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 The reported $250 per ticket for that part of the stadium (pool and cabana access) should keep the majority of the duval county riff-raff out. There's no way this is a good idea in today's litigation happy US and besides that there are plenty of "well-to do" riff-raff. Once the inebriation factor kicks in, all bets and good sense....out of the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET1062 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Bottom line I can't see WNY Economy supporting that. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr It is not just WNY, it is our entire region, the Niagara River is not the Berlin Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 @WKBW The @NYSenate passed a bill today to open #Bills new stadium mtgs to the public: http://www.wkbw.com/news/State-Senate-Passes-Bill-to-Open-Stadium-Meetings-to-Public-263352911.html … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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