BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I love that this is where we are as a fan base: 8 pages on Danny Crossman and 44 pages on Da'Rick Rodgers. We've literally broken out the pitchforks over the ST coach. It's unbelievable. Does special teams matter? Sure. Is it so important that you can't be good on both offense and defense and lousy on special teams and still win? No, not even close. Denver, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, and New Orleans all ranked in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL in special teams and made the playoffs. Arizona ranked 29th and had 10 wins in the toughest division in football (this is all according to Football Outsiders). What's more is that each of these teams got markedly worse in ST ranking from 2012, and yet this hasn't affected their ability to make the playoffs at all. Want to see some teams that got markedly better in ST this year? Jacksonville, St. Louis, Detroit, Dallas, NYJ...notice any commonality among them? Let's get off this ST nonsense and focus on what's important: improving the side of the ball that's responsible for scoring points. Good grief. Special teams gaffs are what kill seasons. If you look at the majority of those teams, elite quarterbacks come to mind. Elite quarterbacks allow you to overcome defecencies. The 85% of the rest of the NFL like the Bills can't afford poor specials teams play. Edited January 6, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Bills Backer Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Lynch mobs rarely think much before taking action. Believe me, I understand. 14 years of not making the playoffs has been a blast. I fully think we should keep staying the course, theres always next year. Marrone was a terrible hire to begin with and I'm sure as the losses start piling up again next season people will start to throw out names to replace him. Not sure why anyone would want this job though as its pretty clear there are still a bunch of clowns running the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concrete Buffalo Feet Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Definitely shouldn't have been retained...disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I don't disagree with any of this. It is just frustrating to see something so obvious and have your favorite team lose all chance. For the record I don't think Greggo Marrone is incompetent in the traditional sense. I think he is a smart guy who knows a lot about football. His flaw is he thinks he is so much better than anyone else that everyone must try to become just like him. That is why he has run ins with reporters who don't understand what he is saying...."I understand what I am saying, why can't this guy?".....Why he doubled down on his failed approach with Dareus. It is why he always seems to be talking down to whomever he is speaking with. It is also why he hired and has now retained this proven poor coach. Blowhard coaches have won in the past but all your eggs are in their basket and they fail more than they succeed. Pretty fatal flaw if you are correct. I think Marrone is quite different from Gregg Williams, but only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I love that this is where we are as a fan base: 8 pages on Danny Crossman and 44 pages on Da'Rick Rodgers. We've literally broken out the pitchforks over the ST coach. It's unbelievable. Does special teams matter? Sure. Is it so important that you can't be good on both offense and defense and lousy on special teams and still win? No, not even close. Denver, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, and New Orleans all ranked in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL in special teams and made the playoffs. Arizona ranked 29th and had 10 wins in the toughest division in football (this is all according to Football Outsiders). What's more is that each of these teams got markedly worse in ST ranking from 2012, and yet this hasn't affected their ability to make the playoffs at all. Want to see some teams that got markedly better in ST this year? Jacksonville, St. Louis, Detroit, Dallas, NYJ...notice any commonality among them? Let's get off this ST nonsense and focus on what's important: improving the side of the ball that's responsible for scoring points. Good grief. Two words: Homerun Throwback!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 So what? If anything, it only shows the risk Marrone is taking by sticking with Crossman. if he's right, everyone here will have been a Crossman backer all along. If ST brings this team sown in 2014, Marrone will pay the price. If that is the case, Whaley should pull the plug on Marrone right away, because they would have effectively wasted two more years. It's not only that Crossman is staying on, but the reasons Marrone gave at the end of the season for keeping him - that Crossman needs better players. Let's examine that. It is true that Bills lost some long time key contributors in Martin, McIntyre & White. But McIntyre & White's roster spots were taken by guys who had greater contributions on the regular teams. So what is Marrone's plan for next year, get better ST players at the expense of regular players? What's the excuse for every other ST coach in the league who has to command a unit of 2nd and 3rd stringers? Other than the guys above, it was the same unit that finished 9th in the previous year with a mediocre ST coach. Bills had premier return men on the roster who did nothing. They have one of the better gunners, yet they still finished #30. If Marrone is willing to put his coaching job on the line for a friend, who's not that good at his job, if I'm Whaley, I'm starting to seriously think about Marrone's decision-making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Special teams gaffs are what kill seasons. If you look at the majority of those teams, elite quarterbacks come to mind. Elite quarterbacks allow you to overcome defecencies. The 85% of the rest of the NFL like the Bills can't afford poor specials teams play. I'm sorry; I cannot find one special teams gaffe that killed this season for Buffalo. I remember one bad return that resulted in the overtime field goal against Cincinnati. Furthermore, I cannot point to a single special teams gaffe that resulted in a team losing this weekend. Of course a good QB is going to win games, so I'll throw this one back to you: show me one team with elite special teams that won without a good QB: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst There isn't one. The teams with good QBs win, the teams without them do not. Special teams makes far less of a difference over the course of the season than either offense or defense when you look at the numbers. Two words: Homerun Throwback!!! Case-in-point: if we have to go back 14 years to find a special teams error that cost the team the season, we're way overreacting here. Edited January 6, 2014 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I love that this is where we are as a fan base: 8 pages on Danny Crossman and 44 pages on Da'Rick Rodgers. We've literally broken out the pitchforks over the ST coach. It's unbelievable. Does special teams matter? Sure. Is it so important that you can't be good on both offense and defense and lousy on special teams and still win? No, not even close. Denver, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, and New Orleans all ranked in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL in special teams and made the playoffs. Arizona ranked 29th and had 10 wins in the toughest division in football (this is all according to Football Outsiders). What's more is that each of these teams got markedly worse in ST ranking from 2012, and yet this hasn't affected their ability to make the playoffs at all. Want to see some teams that got markedly better in ST this year? Jacksonville, St. Louis, Detroit, Dallas, NYJ...notice any commonality among them? Let's get off this ST nonsense and focus on what's important: improving the side of the ball that's responsible for scoring points. Good grief. These threads have gotten crazy because we as fans have run out of patience for decisions that were bad from the start. Rogers & Crossman are a microcosm for how this franchise has done business for far too long. The Bills have to be smarter than every other team in the league. Neither of those decisions are MMQB types of moves. They didn't make any sense before the season and make even less sense now. Edited January 6, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm sorry; I cannot find one special teams gaffe that killed this season for Buffalo. I remember one bad return that resulted in the overtime field goal against Cincinnati. Cleveland, New England. BTW, it's not about an individual gaffe. Those are forgivable for a coach. It's the overall decline in the entire unit's play during the course of the season. Kind of like handing the opponent an extra first down per quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm sorry; I cannot find one special teams gaffe that killed this season for Buffalo. I remember one bad return that resulted in the overtime field goal against Cincinnati. Furthermore, I cannot point to a single special teams gaffe that resulted in a team losing this weekend. Case-in-point: if we have to go back 14 years to find a special teams error that cost the team the season, we're way overreacting here. You totally disregard that the playoff teams that have below average special teams have Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck and Drew Brees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm sorry; I cannot find one special teams gaffe that killed this season for Buffalo. I remember one bad return that resulted in the overtime field goal against Cincinnati. Furthermore, I cannot point to a single special teams gaffe that resulted in a team losing this weekend. Case-in-point: if we have to go back 14 years to find a special teams error that cost the team the season, we're way overreacting here. I'd put it differently - ST can win close games for you. The Bills have a very small margin for error given the division they're in, the way they approach the bottom line, and the difficulty they have in attracting big-name talent (coaching, personnel, everything else). ST coaches and players are relatively cheap - the smart, Moneyball-type approach would be to buy a lot of it. In other words, if you're Buffalo, you should have the BEST special teams in the game - it allows you to cut corners elsewhere, it narrows the playing field a bit. But as always, they're dumber than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I love that this is where we are as a fan base: 8 pages on Danny Crossman and 44 pages on Da'Rick Rodgers. We've literally broken out the pitchforks over the ST coach. It's unbelievable. Does special teams matter? Sure. Is it so important that you can't be good on both offense and defense and lousy on special teams and still win? No, not even close. Denver, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, and New Orleans all ranked in the bottom 1/3 of the NFL in special teams and made the playoffs. Arizona ranked 29th and had 10 wins in the toughest division in football (this is all according to Football Outsiders). What's more is that each of these teams got markedly worse in ST ranking from 2012, and yet this hasn't affected their ability to make the playoffs at all. Want to see some teams that got markedly better in ST this year? Jacksonville, St. Louis, Detroit, Dallas, NYJ...notice any commonality among them? Let's get off this ST nonsense and focus on what's important: improving the side of the ball that's responsible for scoring points. Good grief. I guess if you're up for seeing players like the lightening fast Legarrette Blount shred your coverage we have our guy. It does make a difference when it comes down to field position, but the players too have to execute. The ST unit just looked lost out there at times this year and it's hard not to put that on the coaching. We also don't have Corey Mac out there anymore so maybe he was the X-factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 These threads have gotten crazy because we as fans have run out of patience for decisions that were bad from the start. Rogers & Crossman are a microcosm for how this franchise has done business for far too long. The Bills have to be smarter than every other team in the league. Neither of those decisions are MMQB types of moves. They didn't make any sense before the season and make even less sense now. Neither of those decisions cost the Bills a playoff berth; it's debatable if ST even cost the Bills a game or not. Cleveland, New England. BTW, it's not about an individual gaffe. Those are forgivable for a coach. It's the overall decline in the entire unit's play during the course of the season. Kind of like handing the opponent an extra first down per quarter. The Cleveland game was lost because the offense went over a quarter without a first down after EJ got hurt and the D got tired. The NE game was lost because they allowed 250 rushing yards. ST didn't help, but they weren't the root cause or even the leading cause. You totally disregard that the playoff teams that have below average special teams have Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck and Drew Brees. Not even close. In fact, I asked you which teams with great (or even good) ST units win without a good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Neither of those decisions cost the Bills a playoff berth; it's debatable if ST even cost the Bills a game or not. The Cleveland game was lost because the offense went over a quarter without a first down after EJ got hurt and the D got tired. The NE game was lost because they allowed 250 rushing yards. ST didn't help, but they weren't the root cause or even the leading cause. Not even close. In fact, I asked you which teams with great (or even good) ST units win without a good QB. No you didn't. You added it in after the fact. The Chicago Bears proved the value of elite special teams for about 4 or 5 years in a row. Edited January 6, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 They certainly had a lot of turnover on STs throughout the year since there was a lot of roster churning over the season. The bills still don't have great talent at some key positions that contribute to STs (LBs for example), so I'll give crossman another year, and the additional infusion of talent it brings, before crucifying him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I guess if you're up for seeing players like the lightening fast Legarrette Blount shred your coverage we have our guy. It does make a difference when it comes down to field position, but the players too have to execute. The ST unit just looked lost out there at times this year and it's hard not to put that on the coaching. We also don't have Corey Mac out there anymore so maybe he was the X-factor. I'm not saying they don't need to get better, and I'm not advocating for Crossman. I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of some of the outrage over this coach being kept. It's special teams, and they aren't even close to the team's biggest problem. No you didn't. You added it in after the fact. Actually, I added it about a millisecond after I hit post, because I wasn't done making my point...I didn't realize that didn't count in your book. By the way, good job responding to the question. EDIT: according to the time stamp, I added it at 3:53 pm, exact same time as your post responding to me. Feel better now? Edited January 6, 2014 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Neither of those decisions cost the Bills a playoff berth; it's debatable if ST even cost the Bills a game or not. The Cleveland game was lost because the offense went over a quarter without a first down after EJ got hurt and the D got tired. The NE game was lost because they allowed 250 rushing yards. ST didn't help, but they weren't the root cause or even the leading cause. Not even close. In fact, I asked you which teams with great (or even good) ST units win without a good QB. As Coach Tuesday put it earlier the Bills have a smaller margin of error. In a vacuum neither of those decisions cost the Bills a playoff berth but each negatively impacted the overall success of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Cleveland, New England. BTW, it's not about an individual gaffe. Those are forgivable for a coach. It's the overall decline in the entire unit's play during the course of the season. Kind of like handing the opponent an extra first down per quarter. You left out the Cincy game. The Bills D held the Bungals on 5 straight possessions, and made them punt 5 straight times. Then in OT the Bills ST's allowed a 29 yard return and on the next Bungals 4th down the winning FG, game over! Crossman sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 You left out the Cincy game. The Bills D held the Bungals on 5 straight possessions, and made them punt 5 straight times. Then in OT the Bills ST's allowed a 29 yard return and on the next Bungals 4th down the winning FG, game over! Crossman sucks! Yeah the offensive 3-and-out on the team's only OT or the inability to score on 4 downs from inside the 3 yard line didn't have any affect on the outcome. Must've been special teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) As Coach Tuesday put it earlier the Bills have a smaller margin of error. In a vacuum neither of those decisions cost the Bills a playoff berth but each negatively impacted the overall success of the team. Exactly. When you have Manning, Brees, Luck, Brady etc you can overcome mistakes and poor defense or special teams. One of the main things I have noticed the last 3 years with the Bills even when we play decently, we can't overcome mistakes or poor play on 1 of the 3 units. For Marrones job sake he can't afford it either. Edited January 6, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts