Disapointed with Marrone

[BADOLBILZ]

that's not what i meant. i meant i expected the team to finish 6-10. and they did. they met my expectations, and were better than many in the business who had them at 4 wins.

 

and who of these rookie HCs do you speak of that have done such a good job.

for as many Harbaughs as there are that succeed, there are just as many Chudz's in the NFL.

 

much of their success depends on whether they have a bona fide starter at QB -- the Colts had Luck, the Bills did not.

have one unit, usually a defense, that plays lights out -- Carroll did in Seattle, Arians did in Arizona, the Bills did not because they were still putting together the pieces.

much of it also relies on stablity at the GM position -- the Ravens and 49ers had that, the Bills have not.

 

there was transformational change that took place with the Bills this offseason, much like the changes that took place in Gregg Williams' first year. and it was no surprise that the Bills struggled in 2001, just as it wasn't a surprise that they were a much better team in Mularkey's first year in 2004 because much of the foundation was already put in place.

 

that was not present heading into this season. the Bills purged far too many players.

 

not sure if "ample" opportunity to win 9 was there.

 

jw

 

The entire team Gregg Williams took over was in shambles.

 

Marrone inherited most of a team that underachieved to 6-10 team and took them back to 6-10.

 

The turnover factor is very overplayed by apologists for the losing.

 

The Bills returned 4 of their 5 starting OL, 5 of their 6 leading pass receivers(including all RB's and TE's) and their secondary and DL were almost all holdovers from Gailey's team.

 

The only unit with major change was the LB corps, and frankly Lawson and Alonso played well and the defense wasn't the problem.

 

Given average QB play this team would have easily qualified for the playoffs and wins at least 10-11 games.

 

It's hard to excuse a team that signs Kevin Kolb.....laughingstock QB of the league......but QB is where the excuses should begin and end.

 

But even with the near bottom of the league level of QB play that they received they had a very fortuitous schedule and some inexplicably poor special teams COACHING DECISIONS, not just plays, lead to lost games and games gotten out of hand.

 

Whether that decision is keeping Shawn Powell or punting to Travis Benjamin or kicking easily returnable balls to Blount in a rainstorm they were decisions that fall on Crossman and/or Marrone, IMO and they had a lot less to do with luck or bad players than poor decision making by the coaches.

 

I can look at Nate Hackett's first year and give him the benefit of the doubt......that having better players or more experience will allow him to open up his offense........but Crossman? He has a proven track record of the kind of failure we saw this season. No way he should have been retained. If he doesn't know better by now you can't expect him to learn.

[Delete This Account]

not sure i buy your selective reasoning.

 

The entire team Gregg Williams took over was in shambles.

 

 

yes, that's why that team won 3 games, not 6.

 

Marrone inherited most of a team that underachieved to 6-10 team and took them back to 6-10.

 

 

but with a rookie quarterback, who missed 6 games, and an almost entirely new receiving core, right?

 

 

The turnover factor is very overplayed by apologists for the losing.

 

 

ok?

 

The Bills returned 4 of their 5 starting OL, 5 of their 6 leading pass receivers(including all RB's and TE's) and their secondary and DL were almost all holdovers from Gailey's team.

 

 

actually, 3 of 5 on OL, because Hairston was supposed to be play RT. and the other OL lost was Andy Levitre, which created a hole the Bills failed to fill throughout the season.

easy to say that about the DL, even though it was put in a position to have to learn an entirely new system.

not sure how you take into account the Byrd situation, or Gilmore's injury. -- us "apologists" noted that the experienced depth on this team was very thin which would make it difficult for team to compete if injuries occured.

 

The only unit with major change was the LB corps, and frankly Lawson and Alonso played well and the defense wasn't the problem.

 

 

and yet, you fail to point out that some of the "holdovers," Bradham and Moats struggled. so, were all the "holdovers" coming back under-achievers or not?

 

Given average QB play this team would have easily qualified for the playoffs and wins at least 10-11 games.

 

 

there were no expectations of EJ Manuel playing "average" to start the season. most rookies don't do that. even Marrone acknowledged in May that Manuel was "unpolished."

 

 

It's hard to excuse a team that signs Kevin Kolb.....laughingstock QB of the league......but QB is where the excuses should begin and end.

 

 

Kevin Kolb was not the laughingstock QB of the league. to suggest so overlooks the numbers he's put up. the only question about him has been his health. still is.

 

But even with the near bottom of the league level of QB play that they received they had a very fortuitous schedule and some inexplicably poor special teams COACHING DECISIONS, not just plays, lead to lost games and games gotten out of hand.

 

 

what is this "fortuitous schedule" you speak of. they had 6 games against playoff teams. and of their 16 games, 12 were against teams that finished at .500 or better.

right, special teams cost them, like the time Rainey broke off an 80-yard run, or Stevie's third-down drop against the Patriots. or Tuel's pick-6 at the goal-line, or EJ's dreadful inconsistency at the Jets.

 

say what you will about the Browns game -- and Powell was released a day later -- but i'm thinking EJ's injury and Jeff Tuel's pick-6 had something to do with that loss, too, no?

 

Whether that decision is keeping Shawn Powell or punting to Travis Benjamin or kicking easily returnable balls to Blount in a rainstorm they were decisions that fall on Crossman and/or Marrone, IMO and they had a lot less to do with luck or bad players than poor decision making by the coaches.

 

 

becasue the Bills always beat the Patriots at Gillette, right?

 

I can look at Nate Hackett's first year and give him the benefit of the doubt......that having better players or more experience will allow him to open up his offense........but Crossman? He has a proven track record of the kind of failure we saw this season. No way he should have been retained. If he doesn't know better by now you can't expect him to learn.

 

and yet, both are still on staff.

 

jw

Edited January 13, 2014 by john wawrow

[34-78-83]

thin depth makes for poor special teams... This almost always comes to fruition. Likely (but I cannot prove) the REAL reason Crossman was retained. Disecting special teams film is tough if you're not one of the guys with the plan.

[BADOLBILZ]

thin depth makes for poor special teams... This almost always comes to fruition. Likely (but I cannot prove) the REAL reason Crossman was retained. Disecting special teams film is tough if you're not one of the guys with the plan.

 

Very often players can't play their positions on offense or defense well enough to be considered quality depth.....but they excel at special teams. The Bills actually have a number of guys who should be good special teams players who were not good this year and I blame that on coaching. Depth is a problem for this team, but fast, physical reserve players they aren't bereft of.

 

The first mistake was hiring a proven failure. When you come to a team with a long, poor track record like Crossman has, the players are going to be skeptical. I don't think guys bought into him and I think Marrone's finger pointing at the players reflected that belief.

 

Resuscitating Crossman's reputation and career are apparently pet projects for Marrone. The results are on Marrone. You can't blame Crossman for being something he isn't.

 

On another note, I found it odd that the guy who excelled the most on ST's.....Easley......received so little opportunity as a receiver. If you are trying to motivate people on special teams it would seem to me that you give the guys who play well a few O and D snaps. I'm not even talking about throwing him the ball, give him a chance to run block or set a pic or something. I understand that he is raw as a receiver but damn, the man made every tackle for Crossman and got next to zero regular snaps.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

 

Interesting take. By that reasoning the Bills should have kept Gailey, Jauron etc.

 

And the Browns made the right move firing Belichik.

Oh and Of course The Giants should have fired Coughlin instead of keeping him and that would have been the right move according to some of you guys.

 

The only problem with your logic is of course, the Giants went on to win 2 supper bowls by being patient.

[BADOLBILZ]

not sure i buy your selective reasoning.

 

 

 

yes, that's why that team won 3 games, not 6.

 

 

 

but with a rookie quarterback, who missed 6 games, and an almost entirely new receiving core, right?

 

 

 

 

ok?

 

 

 

actually, 3 of 5 on OL, because Hairston was supposed to be play RT. and the other OL lost was Andy Levitre, which created a hole the Bills failed to fill throughout the season.

easy to say that about the DL, even though it was put in a position to have to learn an entirely new system.

not sure how you take into account the Byrd situation, or Gilmore's injury. -- us "apologists" noted that the experienced depth on this team was very thin which would make it difficult for team to compete if injuries occured.

 

 

 

and yet, you fail to point out that some of the "holdovers," Bradham and Moats struggled. so, were all the "holdovers" coming back under-achievers or not?

 

 

 

there were no expectations of EJ Manuel playing "average" to start the season. most rookies don't do that. even Marrone acknowledged in May that Manuel was "unpolished."

 

 

 

 

Kevin Kolb was not the laughingstock QB of the league. to suggest so overlooks the numbers he's put up. the only question about him has been his health. still is.

 

 

 

what is this "fortuitous schedule" you speak of. they had 6 games against playoff teams. and of their 16 games, 12 were against teams that finished at .500 or better.

right, special teams cost them, like the time Rainey broke off an 80-yard run, or Stevie's third-down drop against the Patriots. or Tuel's pick-6 at the goal-line, or EJ's dreadful inconsistency at the Jets.

 

say what you will about the Browns game -- and Powell was released a day later -- but i'm thinking EJ's injury and Jeff Tuel's pick-6 had something to do with that loss, too, no?

 

 

 

becasue the Bills always beat the Patriots at Gillette, right?

 

 

 

and yet, both are still on staff.

 

jw

 

 

ANY time you only end up having played two road games against teams that finished with a winning record you had an epically fortuitous schedule.

 

Kolb is not only too injury prone to justify hiring he also simply has never produced what matters.....TD's. I pointed this out when he was signed.....despite numerous starting opportunities in his career he's never even spun 10 TD's in a single season. He is very Trent Edwards-like in his ability to not produce but to continue to get chances.

 

The rest of your post really warrants little response. A lot of weak attempts to justify why the Bills had no chance to compete this year. It's just not the case. They may have done too little in the offseason to make it possible to cash that playoff check but they certainly had opportunities to finish games and to play better in areas that weren't all about quarterbacking. They lost winnable road games in NY, Cleveland and Tampa against similarly QB deficient teams. They blew early leads and opportunities created by their defense in Pittsburgh and Toronto. When opportunity knocked this season they did not answer.

[Dibs]

I was just reading post again.

 

The two below are simply facts, so how can these be wrong?

 

 

o Coach Marrone hires his friend and ST coach, then says it's the players fault for bad ST performance.

 

o And from the Bills CEO Russ Brandon that the team has much more talent this year (2013) than when Nix took over.

 

Not making comment on Crossman.....but Brandon didn't say the team has much more ST talent. One can improve in talent overall but regress in talent at specific areas. I am not saying that this was the case(I don't know)......but the two statements above can play happily together without conflicting.

[3rdand12]

May i suggest again that Crossman came in to help Marrone .

Please consider the situation.

Its Buffalo its a college head coach and its buffalo.

The first year is the hardest. And much more difficult without the access to a premium staff. Which Bills have rarely, if ever had .

The guy squeaked out what he did with a first time together staff . Not to mention the Bill famous (dont start with me on this )

annual injury setbacks that kill development. 3 1st time NFL staring NFL qbs. 3 ALL new to the team. When one steps back and looks again , for all the mistakes and questionable moves , the Bills came out of this fighting .

sorry i am off my little box .

But geez. End of next year is time to piss an moan and gather my pitchfork

Edited January 14, 2014 by 3rdand12

[Sisyphean Bills]

Seems like depth is a problem every single year.

[Delete This Account]

ANY time you only end up having played two road games against teams that finished with a winning record you had an epically fortuitous schedule.

 

Kolb is not only too injury prone to justify hiring he also simply has never produced what matters.....TD's. I pointed this out when he was signed.....despite numerous starting opportunities in his career he's never even spun 10 TD's in a single season. He is very Trent Edwards-like in his ability to not produce but to continue to get chances.

 

The rest of your post really warrants little response. A lot of weak attempts to justify why the Bills had no chance to compete this year. It's just not the case. They may have done too little in the offseason to make it possible to cash that playoff check but they certainly had opportunities to finish games and to play better in areas that weren't all about quarterbacking. They lost winnable road games in NY, Cleveland and Tampa against similarly QB deficient teams. They blew early leads and opportunities created by their defense in Pittsburgh and Toronto. When opportunity knocked this season they did not answer.

 

right, because they were a young team coming off a near top-to-bottom offseason overhaul. thanks for making my point.

 

jw

[BADOLBILZ]

right, because they were a young team coming off a near top-to-bottom offseason overhaul. thanks for making my point.

 

jw

 

Let me repeat:

 

4 returning starters on OL

Top 3 RB's returned

Top 2 TE's returned

2 of top 3 WIDE receivers returned and 5 of the top 6 pass receivers

 

DL returned intact

Secondary...minus George Wilson.....returned intact.

 

The Bills had injuries that caused some players to miss games, every team does......but to call THAT a top to bottom overhaul is simply ignoring the facts, John.

 

The "young team" argument is also a weak excuse. Their starting units are of average age, where they are notably young is at QB.

[T master]

The fact that he blames players for the terrible special team performance is super disapointing to me. Those more or less same guys were ranked 6th last year. I appreciate friendship but it should not come in the way of work performance. There is no question we need a better special team coach.

 

Agree - Agree - Agree !!! Then he goes about his off season in first defending his BUDDY Crossman by saying they need more corp players on ST & fires the MLB coach where he had the most productive rookie who has a chance of being ROTY .

 

If Dreisback got fired for the job he did Crossman should went long before him !!! And should have truly never been hired !!

 

If next season Lovie & Wizenhunt take their 2 new teams to the play offs the hire of Marrone will be seen in my eyes as exactly what it is a less experienced Homer hire due to R Brandon inexperience at being a football person sticking his nose into things he knows little or nothing about !!!

Edited January 14, 2014 by T master

[BADOLBILZ]

Seems like depth is a problem every single year.

 

The Bills idea of depth is youth. Take a look at the Carolina. They employ Dwan Edwards, Drayton Florence and Geoff Hangartner........3 older players that the Bills cut. What these guys bring is some stability when you run into injuries etc..

 

The Bills? When adversity inevitably finds them......as it does all teams.......the Bills reserves are rarely up to the task.

 

To me, the Bills approach to depth makes poor special teams even more inexcusable. Younger, faster and more willing players should provide quality special teams play.

[Sisyphean Bills]

The Bills idea of depth is youth. Take a look at the Carolina. They employ Dwan Edwards, Drayton Florence and Geoff Hangartner........3 older players that the Bills cut. What these guys bring is some stability when you run into injuries etc..

 

The Bills? When adversity inevitably finds them......as it does all teams.......the Bills reserves are rarely up to the task.

 

To me, the Bills approach to depth makes poor special teams even more inexcusable. Younger, faster and more willing players should provide quality special teams play.

 

It should be pointed out that the depth issue has spanned several coaching staffs and player personnel think tanks. What are the chances that all of these football people have had the same philosophy? And, if they might not have all had the same philosophy then it begs the question: why did they all adopt the same approach in Buffalo? It's not like there is no evidence that the approach may be deeply flawed.

 

I don't find much solace in Marrone's defense of Crossman vs. the players. Seriously, the players weren't good enough? If that is the entirety of it, then he might as well have said, "Doug Whaley didn't do his job and I don't know how to build an NFL roster," because it is Whaley and the scouting staff's job to find the talent for all phases of the team and Marrone's job to oversee that the right mix of skills are on the roster. And if Marrone did not build a roster capable of special teams success, that begs the question, why not? The churn at QB and OL during the season saw some of the veteran special teamers out the revolving door, but it would be interesting to see a break down on hold-over vs. new players.

[KOKBILLS]

right, because they were a young team coming off a near top-to-bottom offseason overhaul. thanks for making my point.

 

jw

 

Well...I hear you...No question viable excuses...But it's always something jw...Always something...

 

And the overhaul excuse is one I think even Marrone would not be comfortable with...He came into town lauding the talent on this roster he inherited...And overall they did little more than a baby step forward, if that...They got better in some areas, worse in others...It may be just me, but I think they looked like a 7-9 to 8-8 team on the field (even with the QB injuries) that finished 6-10...And I don't think that amounts to much of a positive review for this HC...Though clearly I don't want to run him out of town either...We'll see how 2014 goes...

[C.Biscuit97]

Marrone is much exciting to me than any of the coaches hired this year. I know patience is dead but even the homeless hoodie went 6-10 his first year.

[DC Bills Backer]

And the Browns made the right move firing Belichik.

Oh and Of course The Giants should have fired Coughlin instead of keeping him and that would have been the right move according to some of you guys.

 

The only problem with your logic is of course, the Giants went on to win 2 supper bowls by being patient.

 

The problem is continuing to hire mediocre at best coaches and expecting for above average results. It sure looks like Marrone is in the long list of terrible hires by the Bills. Though I don't blame others for not wanting the job with the current ownership situation. If the team goes 6-10 or worse next year there is no way he comes back for a third season as the fans will be calling for blood and deservedly so.

[KOKBILLS]

Marrone is much exciting to me than any of the coaches hired this year. I know patience is dead but even the homeless hoodie went 6-10 his first year.

 

I was pretty excited and optimistic about the Marrone hire...I like the guy...I think he gets the pain we feel and all that...

 

But after a year I'm a little less than optimistic...Granted he can turn this thing around quick in 2014...He did finish 4-3 at Home...That's a baby step forward...And a more stable QB situation could prove to be a big difference...But I'm not overly impressed with some things...Especially the fact that outside of the QB situation the Bills actually got more healthy as the year went on, but still only went 3-5 in the second half...Most concerning to me was the way they just got manhandled in NE...They had won two in a row and I expected them to play tough in that game...Granted I did not think they could win it, but I expected a similar effort that they gave vs. NE in the home opener...That did not happen...I felt they really got pushed around in the NE game, once again out-physicaled, and it left me with a real bad taste in my mouth heading into the off season...

[34-78-83]

It should be pointed out that the depth issue has spanned several coaching staffs and player personnel think tanks. What are the chances that all of these football people have had the same philosophy? And, if they might not have all had the same philosophy then it begs the question: why did they all adopt the same approach in Buffalo? It's not like there is no evidence that the approach may be deeply flawed.

 

I don't find much solace in Marrone's defense of Crossman vs. the players. Seriously, the players weren't good enough? If that is the entirety of it, then he might as well have said, "Doug Whaley didn't do his job and I don't know how to build an NFL roster," because it is Whaley and the scouting staff's job to find the talent for all phases of the team and Marrone's job to oversee that the right mix of skills are on the roster. And if Marrone did not build a roster capable of special teams success, that begs the question, why not? The churn at QB and OL during the season saw some of the veteran special teamers out the revolving door, but it would be interesting to see a break down on hold-over vs. new players.

 

I think it's a year by year thing. This year the focus on depth was to fill many traditional positions like Corner and Safety and QB due to injuries, and Oline due to ineptitude. Without knowing for sure I would think this took precedence over ST abilities. That's not to say that Crossman is a good coach or a bad coach as he may prove to be as horrible as many are saying he is, but given what the staff decided (no change at that coaching spot), it gives him basically one more chance to prove it was the players (lack of ST talent) who ultimately failed.

[Coach Tuesday]

It should be pointed out that the depth issue has spanned several coaching staffs and player personnel think tanks. What are the chances that all of these football people have had the same philosophy? And, if they might not have all had the same philosophy then it begs the question: why did they all adopt the same approach in Buffalo? It's not like there is no evidence that the approach may be deeply flawed.

 

I don't find much solace in Marrone's defense of Crossman vs. the players. Seriously, the players weren't good enough? If that is the entirety of it, then he might as well have said, "Doug Whaley didn't do his job and I don't know how to build an NFL roster," because it is Whaley and the scouting staff's job to find the talent for all phases of the team and Marrone's job to oversee that the right mix of skills are on the roster. And if Marrone did not build a roster capable of special teams success, that begs the question, why not? The churn at QB and OL during the season saw some of the veteran special teamers out the revolving door, but it would be interesting to see a break down on hold-over vs. new players.

 

This 100%. The Bills, as an organization, do not pay for veteran depth. They won't and don't do it, haven't done it for many years, and every year it kills them. My theory is that it doesn't sell season tickets in July and August, so why bother. By the time you need veteran depth - when injuries start to hit mid-season - most of the expensive seats are sold. They have some bean counter who sits there and says, "Well, geez, if Langston Walker isn't gonna start, I'm not gonna pay him $2.5 million as a backup just in case someone gets hurt. Cut him." And then it's done.

 

We need a new owner if that's ever going to change, I'm afraid.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Coach Tuesday