C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Yep, Hardy was on my mind too. As I recall, that draft was loaded with big second round receivers who busted in the second round - Hardy, Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas. Check it out - TEN receivers were drafted in the second round in 2008. Desean Jackson and Jordy Nelson were the cream of the crop: http://en.wikipedia..../2008_NFL_Draft . The trick is to get good big receivers, no? Route running. I think the knock on FSU's Benjamin is that he runs like 2 routes. That was the knock on Hardy. But he is very young. I think Evans is a much more polished route runner. It basically why Randy Moss' career died so suddenly. He wasn't a route runner, he was a freak. He essentially ran gos and hitches. Once his physical talent slipped, he wasn't a very good wrs. It's why guys like Rice can play forever. They were route runners who didn't rely on physical talent. Edited December 10, 2013 by C.Biscuit97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Huh? If you are refering to Rodgers, which I believe you are. He's 6-1 a bit and ran about a 4.52 forty. Wouldn't exactly call that tall and fast. Compare him to Woods, who is 6-0 and ran a 4.50 forty. Tall, in this thread I take to mean 6-4 + It's not just about the height - it's about the arm length and the vertical. Stevie has long arms, for instance. Hakeem Olajuwon was 6'10", but his freakish arm length essentially made him 7'1". As for Woods, he's 6'1" with a 31-inch arms. Rogers is 6'3" with 33 inch arms (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737204/da#146;rick-rogers; http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1754280/robert-woods). Rogers had a 39.5 inch vertical; Woods had a 33. Rogers is effectively a half foot taller than Woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Uhh I don't know that Mike Wallace is a top 30 WR in this league but OK. As far the Jeffery-Hardy comparison I was thinking the same exact thing last night. Both fell a little bit because of character issues if I'm not mistaken? Jeffery had better production in college. But either way, I don't blame the front office for every pick; it is not an exact science. I LOVED the James Hardy pick at the time. It was the type of pick the Bills don't normally make. What I hate are the "cute" picks. Oh, a guy from Buffalo has already fallen in the draft and we need a TE in the biggest way- let's take a DT from a small school projected to go in the 3rd round. That is a "cute" pick. But I digress. EDIT: And honestly, none of your WR's listed are top 10 WR's in the NFL. Who on here wouldn't take Jeffery, Vincent Jackson, Julio Jones, Josh Gordon et al over any of those guys. Well...I told anyone who would listen before the 2012 Draft that Alshon Jeffery was going to be a stud in this league because he could go up and get the ball even when he was covered...I felt Jeffery was a sure fire 1st round stud after watching him at South Carolina continuously come up with big plays...I figured Jeffery was part of the new breed of NFL WR's...Big, fast enough, massive wingspan, and not good but great hands...The NFL disagreed with me on the 1st round part...The Bills instead took his SC teammate at #10 overall...His teammate is an average NFL CB...Jeffery is a difference maker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Well...I told anyone who would listen before the 2012 Draft that Alshon Jeffery was going to be a stud in this league because he could go up and get the ball even when he was covered...I felt Jeffery was a sure fire 1st round stud after watching him at South Carolina continuously come up with big plays...I figured Jeffery was part of the new breed of NFL WR's...Big, fast enough, massive wingspan, and not good but great hands...The NFL disagreed with me on the 1st round part...The Bills instead took his SC teammate at #10 overall...His teammate is an average NFL CB...Jeffery is a difference maker... A lot of people around the NFL rave about Gilmore. Haven't we learn our lesson about giving up on young players too early (McKelvin, Aaron Williams, Jerry hughes, etc.)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Well...I told anyone who would listen before the 2012 Draft that Alshon Jeffery was going to be a stud in this league because he could go up and get the ball even when he was covered...I felt Jeffery was a sure fire 1st round stud after watching him at South Carolina continuously come up with big plays...I figured Jeffery was part of the new breed of NFL WR's...Big, fast enough, massive wingspan, and not good but great hands...The NFL disagreed with me on the 1st round part...The Bills instead took his SC teammate at #10 overall...His teammate is an average NFL CB...Jeffery is a difference maker... I do think that Gilmore played very well last week. I think he's been getting an unfair shake this season, actually. As a CB, you have to use your wrist to play well, and if you've got a bum one, you're in deep trouble. As his wrist improves, so will his game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL95MelGrayDomination Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) As Gruden said the bigger the WR, and better the athlete he is, the greater "catching radius" he has, the greater margin for error in the throw. Edited December 10, 2013 by NFL95MelGrayDomination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Uhh I don't know that Mike Wallace is a top 30 WR in this league but OK. As far the Jeffery-Hardy comparison I was thinking the same exact thing last night. Both fell a little bit because of character issues if I'm not mistaken? Jeffery had better production in college. But either way, I don't blame the front office for every pick; it is not an exact science. I LOVED the James Hardy pick at the time. It was the type of pick the Bills don't normally make. What I hate are the "cute" picks. Oh, a guy from Buffalo has already fallen in the draft and we need a TE in the biggest way- let's take a DT from a small school projected to go in the 3rd round. That is a "cute" pick. But I digress. EDIT: And honestly, none of your WR's listed are top 10 WR's in the NFL. Who on here wouldn't take Jeffery, Vincent Jackson, Julio Jones, Josh Gordon et al over any of those guys. Not to get into a debate over the "real top 10," but the list is pretty fluid. Last year, Mike Wallace and Victor Cruz would be considered hands down a top-10-- this year, not so much. Antonio Brown is statistically in the top 10 (I think maybe top 5) in every major receiving category this year. Jeffrey is everyone's favorite due to his play over only the last several weeks. The point is that some of these 6 ft tall receivers can do it all. Steve Smith is a another great example. He's like 5' 10" and goes up to get a ball just as good, if not better, than a 6'4" receiver. My main point is really this: you have to be really careful about falling in love with size. There are 6'6" receivers that play like they're 5-feet tall. This FO also has a penchant for being stupid about assessing receivers-- drafting Hardy because he's big, or drafting Graham because he's fast. We need to just draft "good" receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 As Gruden said the bigger the WR, and better the athlete he is, the greater "catching radius" he has, the greater margin for error in the throw. since Gruden said that and it is something I agree with I now have to reevaluate my entire football knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Not to get into a debate over the "real top 10," but the list is pretty fluid. Last year, Mike Wallace and Victor Cruz would be considered hands down a top-10-- this year, not so much. Antonio Brown is statistically in the top 10 (I think maybe top 5) in every major receiving category this year. Jeffrey is everyone's favorite due to his play over only the last several weeks. The point is that some of these 6 ft tall receivers can do it all. Steve Smith is a another great example. He's like 5' 10" and goes up to get a ball just as good, if not better, than a 6'4" receiver. My main point is really this: you have to be really careful about falling in love with size. There are 6'6" receivers that play like they're 5-feet tall. This FO also has a penchant for being stupid about assessing receivers-- drafting Hardy because he's big, or drafting Graham because he's fast. We need to just draft "good" receivers. I don't disagree with you- I tend to agree with you more than most posters. All I'm saying is that although Antonio Brown is having a nice season statistically, no one would take him over Vincent Jackson. The guys you want are the big guys who when you see one-on-one your eyes light up and throw them the ball even if all you can get off is a wounded duck like Glennon on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Well...I told anyone who would listen before the 2012 Draft that Alshon Jeffery was going to be a stud in this league because he could go up and get the ball even when he was covered...I felt Jeffery was a sure fire 1st round stud after watching him at South Carolina continuously come up with big plays...I figured Jeffery was part of the new breed of NFL WR's...Big, fast enough, massive wingspan, and not good but great hands...The NFL disagreed with me on the 1st round part...The Bills instead took his SC teammate at #10 overall...His teammate is an average NFL CB...Jeffery is a difference maker... he was also a guy that was out of shape, had a questionable work ethic, and a bad rookie year. im not sure we wouldve righted that ship, but maybe. As Gruden said the bigger the WR, and better the athlete he is, the greater "catching radius" he has, the greater margin for error in the throw. flip side being a speedy guy has an extended range as well. as someone said earlier, the biggest thing is to add the best WR available, not just the tallest, or fastest. theres a lot that goes into that, and no singular way to get to it unless we are talking the very rare type of player (that excels at EVERY dimension of the job) Edited December 10, 2013 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelee Phoenix Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Jeffery would have been a top 10 pick at least if he wasn't fat and lazy his junior season, they were huge red flags. He's not a good example to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Also, theres a reason not every team has a Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Brandon Marshall, big fast WR - 6'4, fast WRs dont grow on trees...sooooo, wanting us to have one, and us actually having the opportunity to have one are two drastically different things now if there was a 6'4, fast WR and we PASSED on them, or chose not to add them to our roster...then id be upset Does the name AJ Green mean anything to you? That's also the kind of mentality that led us to drafting James Hardy. My thoughts exactly. The mentality going into the draft was that we needed a big red-zone target, which led to us passing on DeSean Jackson, among others. Another example of the Bills out-smarting themselves. Edited December 10, 2013 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) can outmuscle and outjump guys and make themselves bigger targets. yep.. a physical receiver is not necessarily tall. is there a fiercer competitor that Steve Smith? but if you can find a big physical receiver, he'll make a QB with accuracy issues look good. the NFL's all about match-ups.. these types of receivers are match-up nightmares.. and if you add speed, well, you can blind-fold your QB Edited December 10, 2013 by BackInDaDay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 It is clear that a WR who is close to the size of an Alshon Jeffery with great hands would be a huge help to EJ and this offense. No doubt. We really only need 1, IMO. Hopefully in the draft. Then make Woods #2, SJ in the slot, Goodwin as a situational deep threat/KR, and so long to TJ Graham. Goodwin can play. Get him more snaps. He extends and has a great catch radius for a little guy. I honestly don't see Stevie as any better for this offense than hogan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NastyNateSoldiers Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 We should stay away from Mike Evans, he runs like he's wearing concrete boots. What we need are a couple of Athletic TE's . If we finish in the top 7 in the draft. We should trade for bk to the 17-22 area and draft Eric Ebron who reminds me of Vernon Davis but more polished coming into the draft. With our early 2nd round pk I would take Austin Seferian Jenkins. He is a Gronk clone. I would even package our 2nd and 3rd to trade up into the late first to make sure we grab him before the Pats do. Ej needs a couple big athletic freak te's to control the middle of the field that would allow us to use these speed wr's we have to open things up in the deep gm. These 2 te's can also block well so that would help the running gm. This is a no brainer to me. I would love to see us make these moves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Also, theres a reason not every team has a Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Brandon Marshall, big fast WR - 6'4, fast WRs dont grow on trees...sooooo, wanting us to have one, and us actually having the opportunity to have one are two drastically different things now if there was a 6'4, fast WR and we PASSED on them, or chose not to add them to our roster...then id be upset But we already DID. I don't recall having a shot at Bryant or Calvin Johnson, but pretty sure we could have drafted Marshall or Jeffery. Not to mention other WR's over the years. And TE's such as Witten, Gronkowski. This team has just stunk at drafting players for a long time and is why the cupboard is bare of weapons. True stars in the league. Whaley hasn't had enough drafts yet to see if it will change, but the ghosts of drafts past are haunting the Bills on other NFL rosters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 It's not just about the height - it's about the arm length and the vertical. Stevie has long arms, for instance. Hakeem Olajuwon was 6'10", but his freakish arm length essentially made him 7'1". As for Woods, he's 6'1" with a 31-inch arms. Rogers is 6'3" with 33 inch arms (http://www.cbssports...46;rick-rogers; http://www.cbssports...80/robert-woods). Rogers had a 39.5 inch vertical; Woods had a 33. Rogers is effectively a half foot taller than Woods. PS - I will say this about Marquise Goodwin: the dude had a spectacular 42 inch vertical leap. He can go up and get it. TJ Graham's was 33.5 (about the same as Woods). Goodwin has way more physical potential than Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL95MelGrayDomination Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 he was also a guy that was out of shape, had a questionable work ethic, and a bad rookie year. im not sure we wouldve righted that ship, but maybe. flip side being a speedy guy has an extended range as well. as someone said earlier, the biggest thing is to add the best WR available, not just the tallest, or fastest. theres a lot that goes into that, and no singular way to get to it unless we are talking the very rare type of player (that excels at EVERY dimension of the job) And that's the key point we are talking about here, the need for that very rare type of WR. When was the last time the Bills drafted the best WR in the draft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 And that's the key point we are talking about here, the need for that very rare type of WR. When was the last time the Bills drafted the best WR in the draft? Jerry Butler. 1979. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL95MelGrayDomination Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Jerry Butler. 1979. I was going to say Andre Reed, but there was a guy named Jerry Rice drafted in the 1st round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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