8-8 Forever? Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The Rams, Raiders, and Chargers are all ahead of the Bills. Until Ralph dies. Then all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The single biggest flaw in your argument is the new CBA. Right now, the Bills are REQUIRED to spend 95% of the cap figure. Next year that grows to 98% of the cap figure. Looking at the past 10 years, they had the luxury of spending or not spending whatever they wanted. They used the "cash to cap" formula to justify not re-signing players. They can't do that any more. Any shortfall in spending is a penalty that they will pay to the NFL, so it makes ZERO sense not to spend what is required or even a little more. The logic of the Bills spending to maintain profitability is egregiously flawed for this reason. It's what they did in the past, but not what they can or have to do do right now. Simply because they will now be forced to spend money on players doesn't mean they will magically gain the the football acumen needed to find, develop the proper talent at any position. Super Mario is a recent perfect example on how inept this franchise is at finding specific talent in the draft, and how they overspend on one position because they lack the wherewithal to find that talent. Like I said,"In my view it all starts with the GM / HC, find top talent at those positions and it becomes easy to find top player talent. Top coaches don't need an entire team of superstars, just a top QB, and the rest a bunch of blue collar players will get it done." Since this Org either doesn't care or want to spend the money on a top GM / coach, then I don't see anything changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Are you aware that under the new CBA all teams have to spend nearly the same amount of money? Some of the cheesey financial manipulations that this flawed organizaton pulled off in the past are not now allowed. If you continue to look in the rear-view mirror while driving you are going to crash because you are not looking at what is in front of you. The cause and effect are missing with this argument. Just because the Bills will be contractually obligated to spend a certain percentage of the cap does in no way mean that they will spend that money on good players that are motivated to work together and win football games. Paying Chris Kelsay over market value or giving Ryan Fitzpatrick "a solid starting QB" contract does almost nothing to right the ship. Let's face it, if the Bills continue to fail on the field, then everything becomes more difficult. For instance, while it's great that they re-upped the Toronto deal to continue the channel to the non-football accounts, it is also sad that the vast majority of fans at those games either cheer for the opposition or are utterly indifferent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I am sure if Byrd can get the same charisma as Troy, he can definitely make the big bucks. Yes, that's it. The only difference between Byrd and Polamalu is charisma. GO BILLS!!! Are you aware that under the new CBA all teams have to spend nearly the same amount of money? Some of the cheesey financial manipulations that this flawed organizaton pulled off in the past are not now allowed. If you continue to look in the rear-view mirror while driving you are going to crash because you are not looking at what is in front of you. Cheesy financial manipulations? I'm all ears. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Your thought on Levitre not being signed because of "impending Wood negotiations" is hard to justify if at all. Wood is a great team player, that is often injured no matter how they have occurred. He is not a perennial pro bowl player. A valuable center, but he is what he is. I just don't see the logic in thinking the Bills will back up the brinks truck to overpay for the guy. Fan favorites rarely if ever determine what OBD will do. I'd love Wood to stay a Bill for his entire career but the reasoning of letting a LG walk to pay him makes no sense. They let levitre walk because he wanted to, Wood has nothing to do with it. I also saw somewhere Wood is willing to redo his contract now. If true why isn't it happening? Great post. In addition, there is a lurking "consensus" on this that Wood is a better blocker than Levitre. He is not. When he is on the field and not out injured or playing hurt, Wood can be a bruiser, which fans naturally do like. Levitre relies more on finesse, which is starting to be more appropriate in a pass driven league. And in terms of his play on running downs, one needs to look at Spiller's YPA before complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Great post. In addition, there is a lurking "consensus" on this that Wood is a better blocker than Levitre. He is not. When he is on the field and not out injured or playing hurt, Wood can be a bruiser, which fans naturally do like. Levitre relies more on finesse, which is starting to be more appropriate in a pass driven league. And in terms of his play on running downs, one needs to look at Spiller's YPA before complaining. Levitre is a decent run blocker in zone schemes because he's a solid tactician with good feet. He tends to get his ass handed to him when he has to man up. We are watching two completely different games with regard to Eric Wood. If you are going to attribute Spiller's 6.0 YPA to Levitre's prowess as a run blocker, all I can say is that's a bit short-sighted. He certainly contributed to Spiller's success, but he's far from the sole reason for it. And as someone who appreciates line play as much as you do, you know that. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Levitre is a decent run blocker in zone schemes because he's a solid tactician with good feet. He tends to get his ass handed to him when he has to man up. We are watching two completely different games with regard to Eric Wood. If you are going to attribute Spiller's 6.0 YPA to Levitre's prowess as a run blocker, all I can say is that's a bit short-sighted. He certainly contributed to Spiller's success, but he's far from the sole reason for it. And as someone who appreciates line play as much as you do, you know that. GO BILLS!!! Yes, I do know that. I also know from being a Bills Fan that professional teams are able to exploit a hole on an offensive line. I have watched this happen to the Bills for the better part of 2 decades. Levitre did his job and did it well. And yes, he was a better pass protector than run blocker, but he did his job on the run quite well imo. As much as I love the dialogue, I am having trouble seeing anything sensible about not re-signing Levitre. Along with Ruben Brown, he has given us the best play at OG that we have seen in almost 20 years. Now, we brought in a quarterback who is a rookie, another who was beaten half to death before arriving in Buffalo, and took away from them the most reliable blocker that we had on the roster. I want to, but I cannot see a logical equation here. Edited July 23, 2013 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Serious question: Isn't there a huge flaw with this logic, in that the teams you mentioned are all wildly successful, whereas the Bills are not? I think you're right that if [any player] "wants" to be with the Bills they will be signed. (Stevie Johnson is a great recent example -- he signed a nice extension that was probably lower than what he could've gotten from the highest bidder. He wanted to come back, and did -- but at a price that the Bills were comfortable with.) I tend to agree with the notion in this thread that the Bills (Overdorf?) come up with a number for a given player's worth and rarely back off it. And that number tends to be lower than what the player's price would be on the open market. Stevie Johnson didn't give the Bills much of a home town discount, if at all. He got a fair deal from the Bills that met his needs and the team's needs. Johnson is in my view a mid-tier or slightly lower number one caliber of receiver. He is far from being an elite receiver. Re-signing with the Bills was a smart move on his part because he was able to be the primary receiver for the Bills which would not have been the case with the majority of other teams. I chose my words carefully up above -- I never said Stevie gave the Bills a discount. I said he signed a "nice" contract, and I would also use the word "fair". In my mind, a hometown discount is when either the player voluntarily takes a below-market deal to free up cap space (a la Brady recently), or if the player wants to be back so bad that he essentially accepts the team's first offer. Stevie's contract doesn't fit that bill to me. Given that Stevie was the first Bill to ever put up back-to-back 1,000 yard seasons, and did it with virtually no help at WR, it would have been very understandable if he wanted more than the 5 year, $36.25 million deal he got. I'd definitely rather have Stevie than Dwayne Bowe, and Bowe played on the franchise tag last year, then signed a 5 year, $56 million deal to come back to the Chiefs (which includes $36.25 million in just the first 3 years -- all numbers per spotrac). Now, Stevie's deal isn't exactly bad, but I think he could've gotten more if he had gone the Levitre route. No one would have been shocked if Stevie had said that he was going to test the market, and if his agent wanted him to sign a top 5 WR deal or something along those lines. I'm very glad that didn't happen, because Stevie's one of my favorite players. What I'm saying is that Stevie is the exception. Guys like Levitre or Byrd are the rule, particularly on a bad team in a small-market, cold-weather city. I don't know exactly what the answer is, because you can't overpay everybody, but you and the Bills seem to have an attitude of "we'll only bring back the ones who want to be here" (i.e., accept our slightly below-market contract offer). I'm just saying that that attitude seems awfully cavalier. I agree that the guys who want to be here should be top priority, and that it's smart to get those deals done. But I just think the team needs to get better at having a Plan B with the guys who don't "want to be here". I really get the impression that the Bills think they're going to convert the whole locker room into "True Bills". They think if they take care of the ones who kiss the ring (CHRIS KELSAY), everyone else will want a piece of that sweet contract extension action. And that strategy might actually work, if they had more Super Bowl wins than losing seasons in the last decade, but I don't see it ever turning around a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes, I do know that. I also know from being a Bills Fan that professional teams are able to exploit a hole on an offensive line. I have watched this happen to the Bills for the better part of 2 decades. Levitre did his job and did it well. And yes, he was a better pass protector than run blocker, but he did his job on the run quite well imo. As much as I love the dialogue, I am having trouble seeing anything sensible about not re-signing Levitre. Along with Ruben Brown, he has given us the best play at OG that we have seen in almost 20 years. Now, we brought in a quarterback who is a rookie, another who was beaten half to death before arriving in Buffalo, and took away from them the most reliable blocker that we had on the roster. I want to, but I cannot see a logical equation here. Well, it remains to be seen. The loss of Levitre and the impact thereof, will reveal itself early on. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelee Phoenix Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Of course, if you're using Levitre to 'man up', you're using him incorrectly. He's an undersized guard, who counters that with special athleticism and top pass blocking at the position. If he's a bad fit for Marrone's scheme or you don't want to pay a guard that much, fair enough, although quite aggravating for the Bills who sorely lack top talent like that. But, pretending he wasn't a great player that was reliable at the position is foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You know this needs to be said..... Fans get entirely too caught up in blaming current coaches and mgt for decisions that old coaches and bills management have made..... I say for the record....I smell change.....however long it has taken however frustrated I have been with this team......I smell change (and know I am not next to a dairy) - This has to be the YOUNGEST group of overall bills management ever....say what you want about the overall guy.....but Doug Whaley was a VERY smart hire.....brought up slow......comes from a organization that knows how to consistently win, make playoffs, and win super bowls. You wont hear anyone calling him "old" so now they have to find something else to B word about. - When was the last time we hired a fresh college coach and not some NFL retread that didn't succeed somewhere else? People cannot call this the "same ole same ole" they just cant. Don't let the record at Syracuse fool you this guy turned water to wine down there given the lack of talent that he had to work with and the losing mentality Syracuse had that he had to turn around. His fresh no nonsense approach is new....its refreshing....its real - Then they did what everyone has been bitching about for years....they drafted a quarterback....they drafted a guy with all the tools too succeed, from a major college program....that went to a bowl game every year....and won nearly all of them. People feared that the bills would bring in a guy who wouldn't have the arm for the Buffalo weather....this guy was showing off his arm in a rainstorm and throwing lazers......he has the "it" factor when it comes to being a leader....he has the opportunity to be special.....AND they did it in such a way that it also netted them Kiko Alonzo. A fresh approach from not taking chances moving around in the draft wouldn't you say? - Realizing that Dave W. was not the answer even though he had been assembled one of the best D lines in the NFL....the bills quickly moved away from him and brought in a guy who as a defensive coordinator has finished in the top 10 in defense EVERY YEAR....and in some of those years much higher then that.....RECENTLY....this isn't a retread DC who was once good 15 years ago and the game has passed him by. He has also had that success while being a DC IN OUR DIVISION. He still has that same talent on the D Line....they brought in more for him....our 1st round pick from last year has all the makings of a shut down corner......and we improved the LB position though free agency, drafting Kiko, and some crafty trading. - Do you guys realize that what was considered our best WR from last year was just CUT BEFORE THE SEASON by the patriots? What does that say about what our receiving core looked like......the coffer has been refilled there. Woods was considered to be the most polished WR in the draft......Graham is in his second year......we drafted another burner in Goodwin.....and we have a total wildcard in D. Rogers.....who had 1st round talent and has a big chip on his shoulder. - People worry about the O line.....Glenn played with a high ankle the 2nd half of the year and in the first he was just mauling guys.....totally shutting down name players....yes we lost a very good LG.....you can find players at that position....the rest of the line returns in tack - LAST BUT NOT LEAST.....our running game.....when you are gonna rely on a rookie QB...you better have two things.....a dominate running game and a good defense. We have the makings for both. Personally? Im stoked. - No offen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp2Warlick Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) You know this needs to be said..... Fans get entirely too caught up in blaming current coaches and mgt for decisions that old coaches and bills management have made..... I say for the record....I smell change.....however long it has taken however frustrated I have been with this team......I smell change (and know I am not next to a dairy) - This has to be the YOUNGEST group of overall bills management ever....say what you want about the overall guy.....but Doug Whaley was a VERY smart hire.....brought up slow......comes from a organization that knows how to consistently win, make playoffs, and win super bowls. You wont hear anyone calling him "old" so now they have to find something else to B word about. - When was the last time we hired a fresh college coach and not some NFL retread that didn't succeed somewhere else? People cannot call this the "same ole same ole" they just cant. Don't let the record at Syracuse fool you this guy turned water to wine down there given the lack of talent that he had to work with and the losing mentality Syracuse had that he had to turn around. His fresh no nonsense approach is new....its refreshing....its real - Then they did what everyone has been bitching about for years....they drafted a quarterback....they drafted a guy with all the tools too succeed, from a major college program....that went to a bowl game every year....and won nearly all of them. People feared that the bills would bring in a guy who wouldn't have the arm for the Buffalo weather....this guy was showing off his arm in a rainstorm and throwing lazers......he has the "it" factor when it comes to being a leader....he has the opportunity to be special.....AND they did it in such a way that it also netted them Kiko Alonzo. A fresh approach from not taking chances moving around in the draft wouldn't you say? - Realizing that Dave W. was not the answer even though he had been assembled one of the best D lines in the NFL....the bills quickly moved away from him and brought in a guy who as a defensive coordinator has finished in the top 10 in defense EVERY YEAR....and in some of those years much higher then that.....RECENTLY....this isn't a retread DC who was once good 15 years ago and the game has passed him by. He has also had that success while being a DC IN OUR DIVISION. He still has that same talent on the D Line....they brought in more for him....our 1st round pick from last year has all the makings of a shut down corner......and we improved the LB position though free agency, drafting Kiko, and some crafty trading. - Do you guys realize that what was considered our best WR from last year was just CUT BEFORE THE SEASON by the patriots? What does that say about what our receiving core looked like......the coffer has been refilled there. Woods was considered to be the most polished WR in the draft......Graham is in his second year......we drafted another burner in Goodwin.....and we have a total wildcard in D. Rogers.....who had 1st round talent and has a big chip on his shoulder. - People worry about the O line.....Glenn played with a high ankle the 2nd half of the year and in the first he was just mauling guys.....totally shutting down name players....yes we lost a very good LG.....you can find players at that position....the rest of the line returns in tack - LAST BUT NOT LEAST.....our running game.....when you are gonna rely on a rookie QB...you better have two things.....a dominate running game and a good defense. We have the makings for both. Personally? Im stoked. - No offen ..Well said.... Edited July 23, 2013 by Kemp2Warlick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The cause and effect are missing with this argument. Just because the Bills will be contractually obligated to spend a certain percentage of the cap does in no way mean that they will spend that money on good players that are motivated to work together and win football games. Paying Chris Kelsay over market value or giving Ryan Fitzpatrick "a solid starting QB" contract does almost nothing to right the ship. Are you suggesting that I have been a vociferous defender as to how this organizatiion has been managed? If you are you gruesomely wrong. Let's face it, if the Bills continue to fail on the field, then everything becomes more difficult. For instance, while it's great that they re-upped the Toronto deal to continue the channel to the non-football accounts, it is also sad that the vast majority of fans at those games either cheer for the opposition or are utterly indifferent. Of course if the Bills fail on the field everthing else becomes more difficult. That is like saying A precedes B, something that is obvious and can't be disputed. You bring up a very interesting issue regarding the Toronto series. I am not against it. What I am against is the way this shyster owner stuffed the bonanza $$$ in his pocket without doing anything meaningful to upgrade the product. If I had my way I would have forced him to put a chunk of that money in a stadium upgrade escrow fund and forced him to contribute to the rehabbing of the stadium. The problem is he has all the leverage with the public authorities. And he is not afraid to use it. The shame of the Toronto series is if he was really an astute businessman who had a broader vision he could have used those games to market his franchise to the gargantuan Toronto and Canadian market. Ralph's squeezing the customer mentality instead of cultivating a wider market is a typical reflection of the ornery owners attitude toward this franchise and his profit margin. I guess when you get to his age his get it while you can mentality makes some sense. Could you imagine if the Bills playing in Toronto were more like the Jim Kelly SB Bills instead of the rancid and boring product that he exposed to that untapped market. Not only did they not embrace this disgusting product they simply ignored it. Who says the market place isn't rational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) People make it too complicated. You try your hardest to find a franchise QB if you dont have one, when you find one everything else follows. The Bills problem has been their search for a QB. The list really isnt pretty, and if we didnt get lucky with Flutie it would be even longer playoff drought. I think since Losman failed the Bills have wasted about 4-5 years. Before Bledsoe they wasted years. Can never waste years in the QB search. Edited July 23, 2013 by TheTruthHurts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) You know this needs to be said..... Fans get entirely too caught up in blaming current coaches and mgt for decisions that old coaches and bills management have made..... I say for the record....I smell change.....however long it has taken however frustrated I have been with this team......I smell change (and know I am not next to a dairy) You are astute and perspicacious! The juandiced eyes of the past shouldn't be used to cloud one's judgment on what is now going on. . I also smell change and something else. After reading your excellent post I pooped my pants. They don't make diapers like they used to. LOL Edited July 23, 2013 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You are astute and perspicacious! The juandiced eyes of the past shouldn't be used to cloud one's judgment on what is now going on. . I also smell change and something else. After reading your excellent post I pooped my pants. They don't make diapers like they used to. LOL I'll admit it -- I looked it up. Your second statement should be emblazoned upon the banner of this site -- after you correctly spell jaundiced How anyone can not see how things are being managed differently is beyond me. Yes, I do know that. I also know from being a Bills Fan that professional teams are able to exploit a hole on an offensive line. I have watched this happen to the Bills for the better part of 2 decades. Levitre did his job and did it well. And yes, he was a better pass protector than run blocker, but he did his job on the run quite well imo. As much as I love the dialogue, I am having trouble seeing anything sensible about not re-signing Levitre. Along with Ruben Brown, he has given us the best play at OG that we have seen in almost 20 years. Now, we brought in a quarterback who is a rookie, another who was beaten half to death before arriving in Buffalo, and took away from them the most reliable blocker that we had on the roster. I want to, but I cannot see a logical equation here. Bill, try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Of course, if you're using Levitre to 'man up', you're using him incorrectly. He's an undersized guard, who counters that with special athleticism and top pass blocking at the position. If he's a bad fit for Marrone's scheme or you don't want to pay a guard that much, fair enough, although quite aggravating for the Bills who sorely lack top talent like that. But, pretending he wasn't a great player that was reliable at the position is foolish. We can look for them to utilize a combination of zone and man blocking schemes. I'm sure Marrone could have found a place for Levitre, regardless. And nobody is suggesting that he isn't a good player, he is. But he isn't DOMINANT and that's what separates the goods from the greats. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes, I do know that. I also know from being a Bills Fan that professional teams are able to exploit a hole on an offensive line. I have watched this happen to the Bills for the better part of 2 decades. Levitre did his job and did it well. And yes, he was a better pass protector than run blocker, but he did his job on the run quite well imo. As much as I love the dialogue, I am having trouble seeing anything sensible about not re-signing Levitre. Along with Ruben Brown, he has given us the best play at OG that we have seen in almost 20 years. Now, we brought in a quarterback who is a rookie, another who was beaten half to death before arriving in Buffalo, and took away from them the most reliable blocker that we had on the roster. I want to, but I cannot see a logical equation here. Bill, the issue regarding Levitre isn't over whether he is good or not. He is. The front office would even acknowledge that point. The issue for the organization was whether he was worth the type of contract he got with the Titans. They made the calculation that he wasn't. They felt from a cost/benefit standpoint that retaining him wasn't the right thing to do. I'm not challenging your judgment that they should have kept him at the price he eventually garnered. That is a reasonable position to take. What has me perplexed is that although you don't agree with the decision you don't seem to understand their reasoning. You were very forceful in expressing your distaste with the Spiller selection. You portrayed it as a repetition of the organization's drafting lunacy Eventually you cooled your hostility to the selection (not totally) and begrudingly acknowledged that he was a very good player. My point is let the heat cool and eventually if you don't come around to the transaction you will at least understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Great post. In addition, there is a lurking "consensus" on this that Wood is a better blocker than Levitre. He is not. When he is on the field and not out injured or playing hurt, Wood can be a bruiser, which fans naturally do like. Levitre relies more on finesse, which is starting to be more appropriate in a pass driven league. And in terms of his play on running downs, one needs to look at Spiller's YPA before complaining. Bill The one big difference that Wood brings to the plate is his ability to provide a pocket to the QB. When Wood plays, the QB has the extra second to throw the ball. When Wood is not in the lineup, the QB feels tremendous pressure from the middle. I don't have any statistics to back it up, but have watched this phenomenon in the actual games. It is good to good to have finesse guards, but if you don't have a center that can give a pocket to the QB, then it is not much use for the current passing game. Kent Hull was more valued on those 90s line than a LT or Guard. I am not saying Wood is reincarnation of Hull, but he is pretty solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfaninMyrtleBeach Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Damn! I dunno why I have a mental block with that guy's name. But I should get bonus points for spelling Legursky with a "y." Especially after having lived on Dick Road for all those years. For your punishment you lose one of your plastic pink flamingos off your front yard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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