DukeyBomb Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 WITH OUT A GM AND COACH ON THE SAME PAGE, THE TEAM IS DOOMED NO MATTER WHAT! But if they inherit a great QB some how, or defense... That can mask their faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 You guys are all missing the point. It takes a team to win in football. If one guy doesn't do his job the offense or defense fails. No one part is greater than the other parts. The entire team has to perform their job to win. A coach is part of the team to get all of the guys on the same page and team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) I think it's hard to discount bb totally as he has won without a HoF guy. Obviously Brady helped his rep but like referenced Brady early, and cassel still had success. I think BB gets some extra wins out of that roster over what joe middle-of-the-pack coach gets. My worry with Jim was longevity. If they go 8-8 this year... Well... The fact that he was still winning with Matt Cassel tells me that his system is working. The fact that Bill Belichick has worked with how many OC's in his tenure? It seems like every offensive coordinator that graduates from Belichick U. is automatically a hot commodity somewhere. Bill O'Brien, Charlie Weis, Josh McDaniels. Not to mention when he was in Cleveland, he was had Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Jim Schwartz under him. When you're at the top of the coaching tree and have had this many successful people working under you, you're doing something right. The fact that Belichick has won with Matt Cassel as starting QB tells me he knows how to adjust and succeed without his star players. And the fact that he has won Super Bowls with a HOF QB tells me that he is a great coach who has played with a great QB. So again. Let's leave Belichick out of this. We all hate him. We all despise him. But give credit where credits due. Edited June 29, 2012 by FleaMoulds80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kkspike Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 barry switzer great coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 barry switzer great coach. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 barry switzer great coach. Hi-oh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 The thread that won't die got me to thinking has any coach ever been considered "great" without having a great qb? Belicheck was horrible in Cleveland then a genius with NE* (and Brady). Shula was an excellent coach but had Griese and Marino. George Seifert was amazing in sf (to the tune of highest winning percentage in history) and not so much in Carolina. Even our own Marv was not thought of to be good until Kelly came along. My point and question is this can you name an NFL coach who transcended the qb position and rose above mediocrity form that position to be considered great? I can't think of one but I am sure there are a select few. Belicek wasnt horrible in Cleveland.He went 11-5 one year.The idiot Browns drove him out of town--just like most lousy franchises do to their talent--saban-knox-polian-. And he also went 11-5 with a mediocre QB when Brady went down. Sorry to put reality/facts into the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yes he did go 11-5 one year in Cleveland. The other 4 he went a combined 25-39 and he finished in 5 years with a winnin percentage of .450 hardly what I would call good. I think beliechick is a great coach so I don't know where you came up with the idea I don't. (I even stated it in the post you referenced) As for the 11-5 without Brady and with cassell people often forget that was a team that had gone 18-1 the previous year. So he did have success but not nearly the level he had with Brady. Still a great coach but I think his sb appearances and wins say more about it than the 11-5 season do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 ahhh yes the grammar police. I've fixed it for you... now anything to add to the discussion? I think you mean dyscussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 A lot of good points. What it highlights to me is a fantastic front office from president, gm, scouting and yes owner. Then finally a good coach looks great because as parcels said "has the right ingredients in the soup" to make a great soup. I do think Gailey is going to look better and better because Nix and Whaley, and hopefully Ralph keeps up with a commitment to win, a methodical plan, and then it is truly up to Chan, Wanny, and team to get it done. The truly exceptional ones if I understood the original thread comes from the guys who had lemons and made lemonade. These guys have already been stated like Parcells, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yes he did go 11-5 one year in Cleveland. The other 4 he went a combined 25-39 and he finished in 5 years with a winnin percentage of .450 hardly what I would call good. I think beliechick is a great coach so I don't know where you came up with the idea I don't. (I even stated it in the post you referenced) As for the 11-5 without Brady and with cassell people often forget that was a team that had gone 18-1 the previous year. So he did have success but not nearly the level he had with Brady. Still a great coach but I think his sb appearances and wins say more about it than the 11-5 season do. Shouldn't the "wins above replacement" type stat compare what a coach would do with the same team- like drop jauron in the 11-5 squad and watch them go 7-9 as opposed to comparing what he did with a different team? It seems you are looking for a guy that won consistently at the highest levels with a huge talent deficit at the most important position in sports. It kind of doesn't make sense when you really dig into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 The thread that won't die got me to thinking has any coach ever been considered "great" without having a great qb? Belicheck was horrible in Cleveland then a genius with NE* (and Brady). Shula was an excellent coach but had Griese and Marino. George Seifert was amazing in sf (to the tune of highest winning percentage in history) and not so much in Carolina. Even our own Marv was not thought of to be good until Kelly came along. My point and question is this can you name an NFL coach who transcended the qb position and rose above mediocrity form that position to be considered great? I can't think of one but I am sure there are a select few. That guy in NE is the best of my lifetime, hands down. 5 rings. Went to the playoffs even when Brady went down. Responsible for Giants defense that took two. Parcells won none without him. The only one in his league is Lombardi and it's much tougher to win now then it was then, and he is never not in the thick of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Bill Cowher (Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox) Sure he had Big Ben his last 2 years as HC but Ben wasn't "GREAT" his 1st 2 years. Bill Parcells (Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Neil O'Donnell, Ray Lucas) Mike Ditka (Jim McMahon, Heath Shuler, Kerry Collins, Billy Joe Tolliver) This. Defense. Running game. Solid QB play from not great but above average players. Edited June 30, 2012 by vincec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Vince Lombardi is certainly considered a great coach, and while Bart Starr was a good QB, I wouldn't call him great. Lombardi isn't only considered a great coach, he was a great coach. As for Bart Starr, he was quite similar to Len Dawson and Bob Griese… more game managers than guys who could carry their teams to victory. Ironically all three are in the Hall of Fame although none of them are ever mentioned when it comes to the discussion of best quarterbacks ever. Joe Gibbs Gibbs in his prime was a great coach, IMO. And he never coached a great quarterback. Three Super Bowl victories with 3 different QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 bill parcells= highly overrated. he can thank belichek for much of his success.on his own he was very very average. Lombardi isn't only considered a great coach, he was a great coach. As for Bart Starr, he was quite similar to Len Dawson and Bob Griese… more game managers than guys who could carry their teams to victory. Ironically all three are in the Hall of Fame although none of them are ever mentioned when it comes to the discussion of best quarterbacks ever. Gibbs in his prime was a great coach, IMO. And he never coached a great quarterback. Three Super Bowl victories with 3 different QBs. -But they were GREAT game managers-and thats a good part of how a QB is judged.And they were all accurate passers.So talent was a good part of that game managing.--Gibbs Was a great coach in his prime. Strange how he seemed kinda lost when he came back under little Danny. Probbly a combo of his not keeping up with the game, thinking that he could just get back into without too much sweat, and little Dannys awful mgmt team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsLux Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Interesting question. Especially since most people forget that Belicheat's record stunk until his starting quarterback with an 0-2 record that season got hurt. He shouldn't event get credit for the recognition of Brady, since it might never of happened if Bledsoe didn't go down with a serious injury that year. It's hard to answer, but there are a few things I would say definitively. - I'd rather have Farve then Holmgren (did nothing without Farve) - I'd rather have Elway then Mike Shanahan (can't win a thing) - I'd rather have Brady then Belicheat - I'd rather have Manning then Dungy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 bill parcells= highly overrated. he can thank belichek for much of his success.on his own he was very very average. -But they (Starr, Griese, Dawson) were GREAT game managers-and thats a good part of how a QB is judged.And they were all accurate passers. So talent was a good part of that game managing.--Gibbs Was a great coach in his prime. Strange how he seemed kinda lost when he came back under little Danny. Probbly a combo of his not keeping up with the game, thinking that he could just get back into without too much sweat, and little Dannys awful mgmt team. It's hard to answer, but there are a few things I would say definitively. - I'd rather have Farve then Holmgren (did nothing without Farve) - I'd rather have Elway then Mike Shanahan (can't win a thing) - I'd rather have Brady then Belicheat - I'd rather have Manning then Dungy 100% agreement with these opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Lombardi isn't only considered a great coach, he was a great coach. One cannot take away from Lombardi that he was a great coach with the Packers, but he really is like the rest of the HC btood in that h was great with great players (many of whom were acquired ar his direction or to fit the style of a team he disigned so he deserves ample credit for that) however he was not so good in his DC stint. Lombardi was good but a couple of odd bounces and we would be calling it the Hank Stram trophy. bill parcells= highly overrated. he can thank belichek for much of his success.on his own he was very very average. -But they were GREAT game managers-and thats a good part of how a QB is judged.And they were all accurate passers.So talent was a good part of that game managing.--Gibbs Was a great coach in his prime. Strange how he seemed kinda lost when he came back under little Danny. Probbly a combo of his not keeping up with the game, thinking that he could just get back into without too much sweat, and little Dannys awful mgmt team. This post also ignores the fact that Parcells also desersves a lor of credit for etting Belicheat his DC co-ord job. Bellicheat deserves credit for being a very great DC, but make no mistake he does not deserve HC credit being taken away. The jobs are so difficult that its not like Buddy Ryan alone did HC staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 One cannot take away from Lombardi that he was a great coach with the Packers, but he really is like the rest of the HC btood in that h was great with great players (many of whom were acquired ar his direction or to fit the style of a team he disigned so he deserves ample credit for that) however he was not so good in his DC stint. Lombardi was good but a couple of odd bounces and we would be calling it the Hank Stram trophy. As was already pointed out upthread, Lombardi, while dying of cancer, took a Redskins team coming off two losing seasons and led them to a 7-5-2 mark in his ONLY season as Redskins Head Coach. You're drawing the wrong conclusion about Lombardi's time in DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Here's the thing - if his team is winning consistently, the qb will also get a positive reputation. If the qb is not winning games, the coach will also be negative. You could have a great coach with an awful qb and being 8-8 would be a huge success but it seems you would disqualify that. Around the league now you have both harbaugh brothers with iffy qb situations but winning. You might be able to argue Andy Reid - depending on your views on mcnabb. Holy moly!! I can't even imagine Reid in the same building as Parcells and Gibbs. For the purposes of this thread, those two are far and away the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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