Captain Caveman Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I think most consider Parcells and Ditka to be in with the greats (and somewhat lacking in the QB dept.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I don't consider Cowher to be a great coach but a vastly over rated one... Much like Jeff fisher he benefited from longevity. You're right I guess. 161-99 is a pretty overrated record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I agree, it is mainly a matter of perception. For example some people here (even some non rabid homers ) think Gailey is a great coach. Though there is nothing specific in his resume, in my opinion anyway, that you could point to to defend that feeling. "Great coach" is in the eye of the beholder. I don't know if Gaily is a great coach, but I do know that he's WAY better than the bums we've had in here recently. I like him, and he makes the offense interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I think most consider Parcells and Ditka to be in with the greats (and somewhat lacking in the QB dept.) IMO, Parcells is a top 5 coach in NFL history along with being one of the greater architects. He knows how to build a winning team and his formula rarely fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Joe Gibbs Good call. IMO, one of the two or three best head coaches in the NFL over the last 30 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 You're right I guess. 161-99 is a pretty overrated record. He has a great record that I can't argue but it just felt like his teams underachieved. 1 super bowl and 2 trips with all of those excellent teams are a major red flag for me. The loss to the chargers in i believe 94 stands out to me. He's def in the upper tier and I have zero issue with others saying he's great. I just dont think it and am sure I'm in the minority there... Besides he coached Pittsburgh don't they all have good records? Haha (and more sb wins too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 i feel strongly that much more is inside the equations here. Qb > coach and qb< coach. a great qb needs to have the tools ( receivers line coaches etc ) to succeed. A great coach needs time to get those tools developed and in place as best he is able then use players strengths to create a contending team more than one season. i was just reading a poll about Gailey being on the hot seat and i thought to meself: He should have more time and he has made some progress from the hole we were in. alot will be sorted out this season about our qb and our coach. I think we are calling this Chan's third year and Fitzes second as entrenched starter. The chicken and egg? The coach should get the credit when a QB succeeds. How many quality QBs have changed teams and stayed on top? apples and oranges i know, but the coach is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Don Shula and David Woodley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) He has a great record that I can't argue but it just felt like his teams underachieved. 1 super bowl and 2 trips with all of those excellent teams are a major red flag for me. The loss to the chargers in i believe 94 stands out to me. He's def in the upper tier and I have zero issue with others saying he's great. I just dont think it and am sure I'm in the minority there... Besides he coached Pittsburgh don't they all have good records? Haha (and more sb wins too) Then by your definition, Marv Levy is the most overrated head coach in NFL history. Don Shula was an ultimate dissappointment so he's overrated. Sure he had an undefeated season, but could only win 2 Super Bowls in 5 visits with possibly one of the greatest QBs to play the game? Overrated. Steelers have always been good because they select great coaches. That's not Cowher's fault. Don Shula and David Woodley He also had this guy named Dan Marino. He was pretty decent if I recall so Shula doesn't count. Edited June 29, 2012 by FleaMoulds80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Then by your definition, Marv Levy is the most overrated head coach in NFL history. Don Shula was an ultimate dissappointment so he's overrated. Sure he had an undefeated season, but could only win 2 Super Bowls in 5 visits with possibly one of the greatest QBs to play the game? Overrated. Steelers have always been good because they select great coaches. That's not Cowher's fault. He also had this guy named Dan Marino. He was pretty decent if I recall so Shula doesn't count. He won with Earl Morrall, Bob Griese (who was good but not great), and David Woodley, before he had Mrs. Isotoner for the rest of his career. Edited June 29, 2012 by justnzane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Shula was a great coach before Marino. Marino did not make him a great coach. Moreover, Shula changed his offense to take advantage of Marino's skills. Unlike a lot of coaches, Shula was smart enough to know that he should change his offense for Marino rather than the other way around. Then by your definition, Marv Levy is the most overrated head coach in NFL history. Don Shula was an ultimate dissappointment so he's overrated. Sure he had an undefeated season, but could only win 2 Super Bowls in 5 visits with possibly one of the greatest QBs to play the game? Overrated. Steelers have always been good because they select great coaches. That's not Cowher's fault. He also had this guy named Dan Marino. He was pretty decent if I recall so Shula doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Then by your definition, Marv Levy is the most overrated head coach in NFL history. Don Shula was an ultimate dissappointment so he's overrated. Sure he had an undefeated season, but could only win 2 Super Bowls in 5 visits with possibly one of the greatest QBs to play the game? Overrated. Steelers have always been good because they select great coaches. That's not Cowher's fault. I know we're bills fans but Marv is thought to be overrated by several of my friends (I disagree of course but am an admitted homer). 4 and 5 visits are nothing to sneeze at and that's why I think they are great coaches. 2 visits are good and I (as stated earlier) don't have issue with people saying that I just thought he could've done more with the talent he had. As to your next point I'll agree but they are a great organization from the top down. There owner is a model for all others, they draft extremely well, they have excellent coaches (lebeau being the ultimate example). Maybe my opinion of him would be different if he had big Ben longer which is where my original question came from. Tomlin is a great coach IMO and has accomplished as much if not more than Cowher in a much shorter time but had he benefit of big Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I have to disagree. And I wonder, if they had better QBs, whether you would think differently. Nope. There was virtually no fallout in Baltimore after Billick left, and Gruden, for as young as he is, and for as much success as he found so early, is still employed...as a broadcaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Do you need a great QB or great coach to win a Super Bowl? Perhaps neither. Perhaps you need a prolific defense and and a decent enough offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Okay I'll eat some crow must be revisionist history on my part just looked up his playoff career and it isn't nearly what I thought. In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles. Edited June 29, 2012 by section122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Do you need a great QB or great coach to win a Super Bowl? Perhaps neither. Perhaps you need a prolific defense and and a decent enough offense. You wouldn't be referring to any particular team this coming season, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Here's the thing - if his team is winning consistently, the qb will also get a positive reputation. If the qb is not winning games, the coach will also be negative. You could have a great coach with an awful qb and being 8-8 would be a huge success but it seems you would disqualify that. Around the league now you have both harbaugh brothers with iffy qb situations but winning. You might be able to argue Andy Reid - depending on your views on mcnabb. Edited June 29, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Bill Cowher (Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox) Sure he had Big Ben his last 2 years as HC but Ben wasn't "GREAT" his 1st 2 years. Bill Parcells (Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Neil O'Donnell, Ray Lucas) Mike Ditka (Jim McMahon, Heath Shuler, Kerry Collins, Billy Joe Tolliver) Belicheck won without a great QB in Brady's first SB. They only put up 20 points against a weak Rams defense. BB's defensive scheme won that one all the way. Brady was along for the ride (mostly). Belicheck also won 11 games with Matt Cassel who is looking weaker and weaker the longer he plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Belicheck won without a great QB in Brady's first SB. They only put up 20 points against a weak Rams defense. BB's defensive scheme won that one all the way. Brady was along for the ride (mostly). Belicheck also won 11 games with Matt Cassel who is looking weaker and weaker the longer he plays. And Brady is walking to the HOF once his career is done, so Belichick did coach with a great QB. So leave Belichick out of this discussion. What are you guys smoking? Here's the thing - if his team is winning consistently, the qb will also get a positive reputation. If the qb is not winning games, the coach will also be negative. You could have a great coach with an awful qb and being 8-8 would be a huge success but it seems you would disqualify that. Around the league now you have both harbaugh brothers with iffy qb situations but winning. You might be able to argue Andy Reid - depending on your views on mcnabb. John Harbaugh IMO is overrated and is benefitting from a dominant defense. But Jim Harbaugh IMO is the best coach in the game right now. To take that team and their low morale and flip it around in ONE season like that is mindblowing. He's completely changed the culture of that team in a season and that is way more difficult to do than just coaching X's and O's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) And Brady is walking to the HOF once his career is done, so Belichick did coach with a great QB. So leave Belichick out of this discussion. What are you guys smoking? John Harbaugh IMO is overrated and is benefitting from a dominant defense. But Jim Harbaugh IMO is the best coach in the game right now. To take that team and their low morale and flip it around in ONE season like that is mindblowing. He's completely changed the culture of that team in a season and that is way more difficult to do than just coaching X's and O's. I think it's hard to discount bb totally as he has won without a HoF guy. Obviously Brady helped his rep but like referenced Brady early, and cassel still had success. I think BB gets some extra wins out of that roster over what joe middle-of-the-pack coach gets. My worry with Jim was longevity. If they go 8-8 this year... Well... Edited June 29, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts