Rob's House Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 A popular myth that bounces around here from time to time is that the offensive line isn't important because it's really the QB that makes the difference. Certainly a good QB can sometimes mask an offensive line's deficiencies, just as sometimes the ugly guy gets the girl or the 120 lb guy beats up the 220 lb guy. But usually the ugly guy watches the hot girl make out with the pretty boy, the 220 lb guy pounds the 120 lb guy's face, and the QB behind the pourous O-line gets his ass handed to him. Let's take a few arguments one by one: 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you. 2. But Aaron Rogers and Big Ben had success without great lines. Not only are those 2 of the most well equipped QBs to play behind a bad line, (Both are fairly mobile, Ben is had to bring down, and Rogers has a quick release and plays in a quick release offense) their teams have suffered when their linemen have been injured. Both teams have invested heavily in O-line in recent years for that very reason. You don't see Brees or Brady playing behind scrubs. 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck. Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players. No one in the history of the world [who doesn't have a chronic drooling problem] has ever claimed that a good LT is a panacea. An LT can't make a QB accurate or get a WR open. However he can stop a pass rusher from taking the QBs head off before the play develops. 4. But look at what round SB LTs have been taken. Look at what round lots of SB positions have been drafted. Justin Tuck was drafted in the 3rd and Osi Umenyiora in the 2nd. Victor Cruz and Wes Welker went undrafted. Jared Allen wasn't in the SB but he's the best pass rusher in the game and he was taken in the 4th. Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. Good OL depth is the key. Having backups that can capabably fill in without having to adjust the game plan when a starter goes down. The Bills need at least 2 more guys--that hopefully will come in this draft (regardless of round taken)--that can improve on the group we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Good OL depth is the key. Having backups that can capabably fill in without having to adjust the game plan when a starter goes down. The Bills need at least 2 more guys--that hopefully will come in this draft (regardless of round taken)--that can improve on the group we have now. At a minimum the Bills need an NFL caliber starting LT and a quality backup C/G due to the uncertainty about Wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Just look at last season. When Bell and Wood went down, the offense started to look like a circus. Edited March 18, 2012 by QCity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 The Bills should be all set on the interior with Levitre, Wood, and Urbik, plus Rinehart and Colin Brown. That's a lot of talent and good depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 A popular myth that bounces around here from time to time is that the offensive line isn't important because it's really the QB that makes the difference. Certainly a good QB can sometimes mask an offensive line's deficiencies, just as sometimes the ugly guy gets the girl or the 120 lb guy beats up the 220 lb guy. But usually the ugly guy watches the hot girl make out with the pretty boy, the 220 lb guy pounds the 120 lb guy's face, and the QB behind the pourous O-line gets his ass handed to him. Let's take a few arguments one by one: 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you. 2. But Aaron Rogers and Big Ben had success without great lines. Not only are those 2 of the most well equipped QBs to play behind a bad line, (Both are fairly mobile, Ben is had to bring down, and Rogers has a quick release and plays in a quick release offense) their teams have suffered when their linemen have been injured. Both teams have invested heavily in O-line in recent years for that very reason. You don't see Brees or Brady playing behind scrubs. 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck. Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players. No one in the history of the world [who doesn't have a chronic drooling problem] has ever claimed that a good LT is a panacea. An LT can't make a QB accurate or get a WR open. However he can stop a pass rusher from taking the QBs head off before the play develops. 4. But look at what round SB LTs have been taken. Look at what round lots of SB positions have been drafted. Justin Tuck was drafted in the 3rd and Osi Umenyiora in the 2nd. Victor Cruz and Wes Welker went undrafted. Jared Allen wasn't in the SB but he's the best pass rusher in the game and he was taken in the 4th. Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. There are 700 threads regarding this topic already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 There are 700 threads regarding this topic already. True. But this is the only brand new thread on the same topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Ok, good. I was worried for a moment that this wasn't sarcasm. That said, while I agree that we need someone to replace Bell if he leaves and our depth needs serious work, I don't know if this translates into a 1st round draft pick. Certainly some picks somewhere, but the O-line we have did better than anyone expected last year. Part of it was doubtless part of the style of offense we played, but they didn't do half bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenseWinzChampionshipz Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I haven't heard about Bell signing anywhere so my guess is that when Nix said that they offered him a certain amount, that Bell hasn't heard a better offer yet maybe? Either way it wouldn't hurt to get him back and still draft a LT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) There are 700 threads regarding this topic already. I know, I consolidated all of them. Think of it as an op/ed you guys get to comment on. I haven't heard about Bell signing anywhere so my guess is that when Nix said that they offered him a certain amount, that Bell hasn't heard a better offer yet maybe? Either way it wouldn't hurt to get him back and still draft a LT. What I'm curious about is that he didn't even provide a counter offer. I'm not familiar with the internal workings so maybe that's just the way it goes, but that seems kind of like giving the team the proverbial middle finger. Am I wrong? Edited March 18, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenseWinzChampionshipz Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I know, I consolidated all of them. Think of it as an op/ed you guys get to comment on. What I'm curious about is that he didn't even provide a counter offer. I'm not familiar with the internal workings so maybe that's just the way it goes, but that seems kind of like giving the team the proverbial middle finger. Am I wrong? Yeah that does sound like a F U to me also but in the interview he had at locker clean out day he said somewhere along the lines of, This is my first time being a free agent. I love Buffalo. I know it's a process but I want it to be over with already and it didn't even start yet. So I'm guessing he was nervous about free agency and really was sincere about coming back to Buffalo and then maybe ended up having fun in free agency? I don't know. The guy should have been retained before the season ended IMO and then if Buffalo didn't want him, we could have traded him for a 6th rounder at least. In free agency teams are ALWAYS looking for a LT. Injury prone or not I believe he would at least be worth THAT much. Nix had a couple at bats in the offseason. He hit a triple with re-signing Stevie. Then came up to bat and hit a double by getting Chandler back which led to a scoring run. Then hit a single with the re-signing of Morrison which has guys at 1st and 3rd. Then hit another single with the tenders of Rhinehart and Urbik which let to another score and struck out by not getting Bell back with guys at 1st and 2nd. But by signing Mario he hit a homerun which led to 3 scores. So at 6 bats he has 5 hits, a homerun, a triple, a double and two singles with 5 RBI's and one strike out. Not too bad if you ask me. OH and by the way. I hate baseball... It was the best way to explain it though. Edited March 18, 2012 by DefenseWinzChampionshipz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) A popular myth that bounces around here from time to time is that the offensive line isn't important because it's really the QB that makes the difference. Certainly a good QB can sometimes mask an offensive line's deficiencies, just as sometimes the ugly guy gets the girl or the 120 lb guy beats up the 220 lb guy. But usually the ugly guy watches the hot girl make out with the pretty boy, the 220 lb guy pounds the 120 lb guy's face, and the QB behind the pourous O-line gets his ass handed to him. Let's take a few arguments one by one: 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you. 2. But Aaron Rogers and Big Ben had success without great lines. Not only are those 2 of the most well equipped QBs to play behind a bad line, (Both are fairly mobile, Ben is had to bring down, and Rogers has a quick release and plays in a quick release offense) their teams have suffered when their linemen have been injured. Both teams have invested heavily in O-line in recent years for that very reason. You don't see Brees or Brady playing behind scrubs. 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck. Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players. No one in the history of the world [who doesn't have a chronic drooling problem] has ever claimed that a good LT is a panacea. An LT can't make a QB accurate or get a WR open. However he can stop a pass rusher from taking the QBs head off before the play develops. 4. But look at what round SB LTs have been taken. Look at what round lots of SB positions have been drafted. Justin Tuck was drafted in the 3rd and Osi Umenyiora in the 2nd. Victor Cruz and Wes Welker went undrafted. Jared Allen wasn't in the SB but he's the best pass rusher in the game and he was taken in the 4th. Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. The fact that you sit around and watch this happens worries me Edited March 18, 2012 by ndirish1978 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) The Bills should be all set on the interior with Levitre, Wood, and Urbik, plus Rinehart and Colin Brown. That's a lot of talent and good depth. Who is Colin Brown? Seriously. I have hopes for an unknown guy on the roster named Jake Vermiglio, but that's for personal reasons. I have no idea how good his is. I know he's huge and nimble. Is Brown good enough to be the man in case Wood becomes a chronic injury guy. Edited March 18, 2012 by JPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I haven't heard about Bell signing anywhere so my guess is that when Nix said that they offered him a certain amount, that Bell hasn't heard a better offer yet maybe? Either way it wouldn't hurt to get him back and still draft a LT. agreed... Bell can compete with the new guy at LT and Hairston can focus on RT behind Pears. When and If Bell gets hurt Hairston can back up both, or play LT if the new guy isnt ready or if he is hurt to. Worst case scenario we will have some good depth at tackle. Bell is to injury prone to be relied on, which is why he is not being offered starting LT money anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 So when my wife says that size doesn't matter, she...... Aww man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Who is Colin Brown? Seriously. I have hopes for an unknown guy on the roster named Jake Vermiglio, but that's for personal reasons. I have no idea how good his is. I know he's huge and nimble. Is Brown good enough to be the man in case Wood becomes a chronic injury guy. Colin Brown is a 3rd year player out of Missouri. He's a former 5th round pick of the Kansas City Chiefs. He's 6'7" and 328 pounds and has played tackle throughout most of his career. Due to injuries to the O-line at season's end, he started at center for the week 17 game against New England and played very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Bell is worth bringing back only if his deal does not hamper the ability to resign Levitre. Regardless of what they do with Bell, Jonathan Martin #10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck../b] Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players "If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you." Edited March 19, 2012 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 "If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you." If only that was as clever as you think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Rob, all three of your assertions come as a great relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAinLack. Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 True. But this is the only brand new thread on the same topic. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 If only that was as clever as you think it is. Perhaps not, but maybe because I used all of your own words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) A popular myth that bounces around here from time to time is that the offensive line isn't important because it's really the QB that makes the difference. Certainly a good QB can sometimes mask an offensive line's deficiencies, just as sometimes the ugly guy gets the girl or the 120 lb guy beats up the 220 lb guy. But usually the ugly guy watches the hot girl make out with the pretty boy, the 220 lb guy pounds the 120 lb guy's face, and the QB behind the pourous O-line gets his ass handed to him. Let's take a few arguments one by one: 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you. 2. But Aaron Rogers and Big Ben had success without great lines. Not only are those 2 of the most well equipped QBs to play behind a bad line, (Both are fairly mobile, Ben is had to bring down, and Rogers has a quick release and plays in a quick release offense) their teams have suffered when their linemen have been injured. Both teams have invested heavily in O-line in recent years for that very reason. You don't see Brees or Brady playing behind scrubs. 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck. Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players. No one in the history of the world [who doesn't have a chronic drooling problem] has ever claimed that a good LT is a panacea. An LT can't make a QB accurate or get a WR open. However he can stop a pass rusher from taking the QBs head off before the play develops. 4. But look at what round SB LTs have been taken. Look at what round lots of SB positions have been drafted. Justin Tuck was drafted in the 3rd and Osi Umenyiora in the 2nd. Victor Cruz and Wes Welker went undrafted. Jared Allen wasn't in the SB but he's the best pass rusher in the game and he was taken in the 4th. Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. Edited March 19, 2012 by Trader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 We need us some offensive line dog gammit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Last year the Jets D physically beat up our offense. Adding a big tough physical O-lineman (regardless of rd) would definitely help on that front. We've got good players buy other than Wood I don't know that any of these guys are all that physically imposing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 There are 700 threads regarding this topic already. And in every one you have gon eon the record as saying you do not think OL is as important as WR or another position. Yet anyone who knows anything about football , knows that no other single group(OL=5 guys) controls the game more then them. Its that simple. If you have a great Oline you have a good team. You can run and pass. You allow your defense to rest. You dictate the pace of the game. Look no further then the NFL leading rusher of all time. E. Smith played behind the greatest oline for a long time. He did not have the talent Barry Sanders had. IMHO if you pick the right OT at 10, this team is much better then a wr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 A popular myth that bounces around here from time to time is that the offensive line isn't important because it's really the QB that makes the difference. Certainly a good QB can sometimes mask an offensive line's deficiencies, just as sometimes the ugly guy gets the girl or the 120 lb guy beats up the 220 lb guy. But usually the ugly guy watches the hot girl make out with the pretty boy, the 220 lb guy pounds the 120 lb guy's face, and the QB behind the pourous O-line gets his ass handed to him. Let's take a few arguments one by one: 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you. 2. But Aaron Rogers and Big Ben had success without great lines. Not only are those 2 of the most well equipped QBs to play behind a bad line, (Both are fairly mobile, Ben is had to bring down, and Rogers has a quick release and plays in a quick release offense) their teams have suffered when their linemen have been injured. Both teams have invested heavily in O-line in recent years for that very reason. You don't see Brees or Brady playing behind scrubs. 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck. Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players. No one in the history of the world [who doesn't have a chronic drooling problem] has ever claimed that a good LT is a panacea. An LT can't make a QB accurate or get a WR open. However he can stop a pass rusher from taking the QBs head off before the play develops. 4. But look at what round SB LTs have been taken. Look at what round lots of SB positions have been drafted. Justin Tuck was drafted in the 3rd and Osi Umenyiora in the 2nd. Victor Cruz and Wes Welker went undrafted. Jared Allen wasn't in the SB but he's the best pass rusher in the game and he was taken in the 4th. Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. Very good post! I'd like to expand on your point #3. A good offensive line provides good run blocking and (more importantly) good pass protection. A guy like Trent Dilfer isn't going to produce all that much anyway, whether you give him good pass protection or not. With a guy like him under center, much of the potential benefit of a good OL is wasted. But if you give a guy like Kurt Warner good pass protection, he will physically destroy the opposing defense! The combination of an elite QB and good pass protection is a very potent one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 And in every one you have gon eon the record as saying you do not think OL is as important as WR or another position. Yet anyone who knows anything about football , knows that no other single group(OL=5 guys) controls the game more then them. Its that simple. If you have a great Oline you have a good team. You can run and pass. You allow your defense to rest. You dictate the pace of the game. Look no further then the NFL leading rusher of all time. E. Smith played behind the greatest oline for a long time. He did not have the talent Barry Sanders had. IMHO if you pick the right OT at 10, this team is much better then a wr. I'm generally in agreement with Bill from NYC's posts about the importance of the offensive line. Even so, I think your post goes a little too far! A good or even great OL, alone, doesn't guarantee you the ability to pass, or that you'll have a good team. In 1998, the Rams had the Greatest Show on Turf--one of the best offenses the NFL had ever seen. Their OL was anchored by Hall of Fame LT Orlando Pace. They had a good RB in Marshall Faulk. In 2000, the Ravens had an offense which went five straight games without scoring a touchdown. They also had a very good OL, anchored by a Hall of Fame-level LT Jon Ogden. They had a good RB in Jamal Lewis. Both teams' OLs provided good to very good pass protection. Giving good pass protection to Tony Banks or Trent Dilfer is like giving $100,000 worth of art equipment to a fifth-rate artist. Most of the potential benefit is wasted. But giving good pass protection to Kurt Warner is like giving that expensive art equipment to Leonardo da Vinci. Every last drop of potential will be squeezed out of it. I'll grant that the '98 Rams had a much better receiving corps than the Ravens of 2000. (Even if the Ravens did have Hall of Fame TE Shannon Sharpe.) But most of the difference between those two teams' offenses was because of QB play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInUticaTampa Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The Bills should be all set on the interior with Levitre, Wood, and Urbik, plus Rinehart and Colin Brown. That's a lot of talent and good depth. Agreed. And I think harriston is a good backup for both tackles, but they need a levity starter at lt if they aren't going to sign bell, which is obvious. Otherwise our line is in good shape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) At a minimum the Bills need an NFL caliber starting LT and a quality backup C/G due to the uncertainty about Wood I think they got something for that now... sorry, i haven't had an opportunity like that in about 20 months... low hanging fruit (no pun intended there...really) Edited March 19, 2012 by madtowntobuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb62 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 That is why you just need to draft players that are great at any position. When the Raiders won the SB it was because you needed two great cover corners. When the Ravens won "D" wins SB's, when the 49's won gotta have a Joe Montana, great players at any postion win SB's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 A popular myth that bounces around here from time to time is that the offensive line isn't important because it's really the QB that makes the difference. Certainly a good QB can sometimes mask an offensive line's deficiencies, just as sometimes the ugly guy gets the girl or the 120 lb guy beats up the 220 lb guy. But usually the ugly guy watches the hot girl make out with the pretty boy, the 220 lb guy pounds the 120 lb guy's face, and the QB behind the pourous O-line gets his ass handed to him. Let's take a few arguments one by one: 1. A great O-line doesn't matter, but a strong pass rush can make all the difference. So a great pass rusher can make all the difference but a guy who can nullify that pass rusher's impact is a waste? If you can't see the internal inconsistency in that statement I'm sure I can't help you. 2. But Aaron Rogers and Big Ben had success without great lines. Not only are those 2 of the most well equipped QBs to play behind a bad line, (Both are fairly mobile, Ben is had to bring down, and Rogers has a quick release and plays in a quick release offense) their teams have suffered when their linemen have been injured. Both teams have invested heavily in O-line in recent years for that very reason. You don't see Brees or Brady playing behind scrubs. 3. But the teams with the best LTs like the Dolphins and Browns suck. Right, but LT is one position on a line of 5 players. No one in the history of the world [who doesn't have a chronic drooling problem] has ever claimed that a good LT is a panacea. An LT can't make a QB accurate or get a WR open. However he can stop a pass rusher from taking the QBs head off before the play develops. 4. But look at what round SB LTs have been taken. Look at what round lots of SB positions have been drafted. Justin Tuck was drafted in the 3rd and Osi Umenyiora in the 2nd. Victor Cruz and Wes Welker went undrafted. Jared Allen wasn't in the SB but he's the best pass rusher in the game and he was taken in the 4th. Good teams usually have good offensive lines regardless of where their LT was drafted. How is this a popular myth? Anyone with this perspective is either not a fan or quite stupid and not warranting comment. Draft an OT at 10, pleeese. Round two, a linebacker with some fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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