Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janicks Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 You mean besides James Hardy? I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here had never heard of Gronk last draft. Its pretty easy now to say we should have drafted him. If we knew then what we know now, we would have used our 1st rounder on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 There were a lot of people that weren't thrilled when we drafted Troup. But only 1-2 people mentioned Gronk. Most of the people who didn't like the pick were talking about Terrence Cody, Sergio Kindle and Jimmy Clausen, if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 You mean besides James Hardy? I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here had never heard of Gronk last draft. Its pretty easy now to say we should have drafted him. If we knew then what we know now, we would have used our 1st rounder on him. I specifically phrased the question to allow you to exclude Hardy because there was no one picked after him in round 2 who was as starkly better than our pick (maybe Jackson is close). No one knew Troup either, but the point is that the Orchard Park Hillbillies certainly knew who Gronkowski was. But "Chan Gailey doesn't use/need a TE", right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 You mean besides James Hardy? I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here had never heard of Gronk last draft. Its pretty easy now to say we should have drafted him. If we knew then what we know now, we would have used our 1st rounder on him. Actually, Gronk was a highly touted prospect. Between that and him being a lpcal kid, a lot of people knew about him. Troup, on the other hand, was an obscure prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 You mean besides James Hardy? I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here had never heard of Gronk last draft. Its pretty easy now to say we should have drafted him. If we knew then what we know now, we would have used our 1st rounder on him. The dude is from Buffalo. Most people in WNY knew of him when he was in high school. And for the record, I and a lot of other posters had him targeted all offseason. Just another whiff by the worst FO in sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankReichComeback Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 The worst? There have been many BAD BAD BAD second round picks. Troupe was a pick that was considered a bit of a "reach" by most NFL "experts" as Troupe was a projected 3rd rounder. There were a lot of good players on that board and this team could have definitely used a TE like Gronk. I think the need to draft Troupe came from Edwards' decision to switch to a 3-4. They needed someone they thought NT even if it meant bypassing other needs on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In space no one can hear Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 The Troup pick was a poor pick from the get go. 1- It was a huge reach for a need position- since we were converting to a 3-4 defense and had no natural nose tackle on the roster. Troup was rated by NO ONE to be a high second round pick. The switch to the 3-4 contributed to their reaches for Troup and Carrington(who was considered one of the few 3-4 base ends left at the time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Nope, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billnutinphoenix Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 But, we don't like Tight Ends in our offense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Gronk missed his entire senior eason with a back injury. And no one thought enough of him to take him with the first 41 picks in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 Gronk missed his entire senior eason with a back injury. And no one thought enough of him to take him with the first 41 picks in the draft. We're talking about the second round, doc. No one has made the argument that he was a first rounder. Certainly no other team was going to pick Troup in the second round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) Troup was a reach pick for need by a guy that clearly isn't an NFL GM Edited December 19, 2011 by Max997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 We're talking about the second round, doc. No one has made the argument that he was a first rounder. Certainly no other team was going to pick Troup in the second round. If people knew how good Gronk would be, someone would have taken him in the early 1st round. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 The worst? There have been many BAD BAD BAD second round picks. Troupe was a pick that was considered a bit of a "reach" by most NFL "experts" as Troupe was a projected 3rd rounder. There were a lot of good players on that board and this team could have definitely used a TE like Gronk. I think the need to draft Troupe came from Edwards' decision to switch to a 3-4. They needed someone they thought NT even if it meant bypassing other needs on the team. George Edwards did not choose to convert to the 34, Buddy Nix did. And that decision forced Buffalo to use lots of personnel resources on moving from the cover two. I don't see a place for Troup anymore with the DL they have. He's depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Gronk missed his entire senior eason with a back injury. And no one thought enough of him to take him with the first 41 picks in the draft. What twisted logic that is. Because no-one else drafted Gronk in the top 41 picks, that demonstrates he is the 42nd best player in the draft. And because Troup was picked 41st, that is proof that he is the 41st best player in the draft. The draft is about hits and misses. Gronk was a huge steal. Troup is both a reach and a disaster of a pick. And the Bills shouldn't necessarily be persecuted because they didn't draft Gronkowski. But, there were multiple blue chip prospects still available at the time. The three I was looking for at the time were Claussen (mea culpa), Cody, and Linval Joseph. Cody was an ideal 3-4 nose tackle with excellent size and pedigree. Joseph was the first team Conference USA D-tackle, meaning he outplayed Troup within his own Conference. To follow that up, Joseph blew scouts away at the combine with his speed and strength. Nix went with Troup, a middling prospect with chronic back problems. Joseph is excelling with the Giants, while Troup is ineffective the little time he is healthy. Who saw that coming?? Nix went into that draft trying to prove he knew something others didn't by making picks that were off the grid, similar to Levy reaching for Whitner and McCargo. Nix is an embarassment of a GM. But hey, he makes Ralph 'comfortable.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 What twisted logic that is. Because no-one else drafted Gronk in the top 41 picks, that demonstrates he is the 42nd best player in the draft. And because Troup was picked 41st, that is proof that he is the 41st best player in the draft. The draft is about hits and misses. Gronk was a huge steal. Troup is both a reach and a disaster of a pick. And the Bills shouldn't necessarily be persecuted because they didn't draft Gronkowski. But, there were multiple blue chip prospects still available at the time. The three I was looking for at the time were Claussen (mea culpa), Cody, and Linval Joseph. Cody was an ideal 3-4 nose tackle with excellent size and pedigree. Joseph was the first team Conference USA D-tackle, meaning he outplayed Troup within his own Conference. To follow that up, Joseph blew scouts away at the combine with his speed and strength. Nix went with Troup, a middling prospect with chronic back problems. Joseph is excelling with the Giants, while Troup is ineffective the little time he is healthy. Who saw that coming?? Nix went into that draft trying to prove he knew something others didn't by making picks that were off the grid, similar to Levy reaching for Whitner and McCargo. Nix is an embarassment of a GM. But hey, he makes Ralph 'comfortable.' Good post except that Troup didn't have chronic back problems as far as I can research. He played 48 games during his college career and started 39 of those games. I don't believe Troup missed any games to injury during college so again, I don't know where these repeated claims of Troup having chronic back problems has come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I say yes. I'm certainly not here to defend the organization, but Gronkowski had known injury issues for sure. In my opinion his health and his dominant play is almost a medical miracle. Reminds me a lot of how Rodney Harrison went from an aging, injured safety with San Diego and then was re-born in NE and suddenly found healthy muscles and joints. I'm just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 take Brady away from Gronk and you probably get something like Scott Chandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I specifically phrased the question to allow you to exclude Hardy because there was no one picked after him in round 2 who was as starkly better than our pick (maybe Jackson is close). No one knew Troup either, but the point is that the Orchard Park Hillbillies certainly knew who Gronkowski was. But "Chan Gailey doesn't use/need a TE", right? you sure about that? this is the throw-a-dart-at-the-draft-board bills we're talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 If people knew how good Gronk would be, someone would have taken him in the early 1st round. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, no? The Bills had to know all about Gronkowski (at least as much as BB knew), a local kid playing a position the Bills desperately needed to fill with a talented player. Taking a NT in the second was silly on its face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I say yes. its close but James hardy might be worse. The dude is from Buffalo. Most people in WNY knew of him when he was in high school. And for the record, I and a lot of other posters had him targeted all offseason. Just another whiff by the worst FO in sports. was going to say the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 its close but James hardy might be worse. was going to say the same thing. How was Hardy worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan714 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Gronk missed his entire senior eason with a back injury. And no one thought enough of him to take him with the first 41 picks in the draft. We use to have a GM that could properly evaluate injured players, seems I remember teams passing on a hall of famer we got in the 2nd round, Thurman Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 We use to have a GM that could properly evaluate injured players, seems I remember teams passing on a hall of famer we got in the 2nd round, Thurman Thomas. This is the same GM who didn't see any potential problem signing (and re-signing) Merriman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan714 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 This is the same GM who didn't see any potential problem signing (and re-signing) Merriman Good point. Here's a 2012 Merriman preview for the pollyannas: Merriman held out of OTA, limited in camp, plays 3 series in preseason and has his snaps limited during the season and I say he doesnt play 10 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Blizzard Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 The Troup pick was a poor pick from the get go. 1- It was a huge reach for a need position- since we were converting to a 3-4 defense and had no natural nose tackle on the roster. Troup was rated by NO ONE to be a high second round pick. The switch to the 3-4 contributed to their reaches for Troup and Carrington(who was considered one of the few 3-4 base ends left at the time) You mean we didn't get the standard "We couldn't believe he was still available" quote from the F.O. after the pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 We use to have a GM that could properly evaluate injured players, seems I remember teams passing on a hall of famer we got in the 2nd round, Thurman Thomas. Let's be fair here. Gronkowski didn't play his senior season and only played in 22 games as a collegiate. Thurman played all four years and had nearly 1000 career touches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Let's be fair here. Gronkowski didn't play his senior season and only played in 22 games as a collegiate. Thurman played all four years and had nearly 1000 career touches. Why bring objectivity to the conversation SJBF? You will fry some brains with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 Why bring objectivity to the conversation SJBF? You will fry some brains with it. You mean like "nope, not at all"? Thanks for contributing to the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 You mean like "nope, not at all"? Thanks for contributing to the debate. What debate? Read the thread title and tell me that is the best you can come up with for a healthy debate. Gronkowski was not a slam dunk on draft day as you want us to believe. Drafting him in the 2nd round would have been deemed as a risk move, moreso for the first draft ever of a new regime. The Patriots have 30 picks every single draft and they took the risk with him, like the risk they took drafting Cannon and Mallett. Troup was a hard worker and one man wrecking crew at UFC. He was a self motivated player without injury concerns. Wheter you like the guy or not, on paper he was a solid draft pick. Worst Bills 2nd rounder ever? Please, how moronic is that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 We're going in circles a bit but again, there's a good deal of hindsight in the initial premise. Most of us can agree that very few people were crazy about the Troup pick… although immediately after the draft I could see some rational for it. But I remember only a very few people who wanted Gronk picked at that spot. Most of the conversation was dominated by Clausen, Kindle, and Terrence Cody. As noted in this thread, Gronk was a medical risk who missed his entire final season. And it's a bit ironic that in the very same thread, some are retrospectively calling for the drafting of Gronk (a medical risk) and Troup was referred to as a medical risk (even though he was virtually injury-free in college and played 48 games, starting 39). As Fixxer points out, some organizations are in a better position to make risky picks than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) What debate? Read the thread title and tell me that is the best you can come up with for a healthy debate. Gronkowski was not a slam dunk on draft day as you want us to believe. Drafting him in the 2nd round would have been deemed as a risk move, moreso for the first draft ever of a new regime. The Patriots have 30 picks every single draft and they took the risk with him, like the risk they took drafting Cannon and Mallett. Troup was a hard worker and one man wrecking crew at UFC. He was a self motivated player without injury concerns. Wheter you like the guy or not, on paper he was a solid draft pick. Worst Bills 2nd rounder ever? Please, how moronic is that...... "moronic", you say? Not of you read the thread accurately. Not a "slam dunk"--no need to change the question being asked. Nor did I claim it was the" worst Bills 2nd rounder ever" (that's just lazy, brother). The "new regime's" first pick was a huge risk (a third RB) , so going after a TE an important position in most teams' offenses (and a screaming need of the Bills) with the second round of the draft instead of an NT was philosophically incorrect---that's part of the question or debate i meant to start. "On paper", i doubt anyone had Troup going early in the 2nd round, despite him "wrecking" the Conf USA (second team all conference junior year). In fact, it's likely he would have been there early in the third, where Nix blew the 3rd round pick on Carrington. Nix fell in love with Troup in the Shrine game, no doubt. Gronkowski was projected to go in the second in many mocks, despite his previous surgery. In fact, due to the perceived relative weakness of the TE class, he was considered a top prospect at the position. The Bills likely could have picked both Gronkowski and Troup. In short, due to the relative value of the positions to be filled and needs at the time and to the opportunity cost of the pick (not all of which is based in hindsight, but with information known by the FO at the time), i think the pick of Troup was the worst 2nd rounder in the past decade. Edited December 19, 2011 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 You mean besides James Hardy? I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here had never heard of Gronk last draft. Its pretty easy now to say we should have drafted him. If we knew then what we know now, we would have used our 1st rounder on him. Remember how many people on here defended the Hardy pick? That always amazed me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 "moronic", you say? Not of you read the thread accurately. Your thread consists of a thread title and a rotund "I say yes". There is nothing that indicates your post has any value. There is no thought process involved in it, hence the moronic statement by me. Not a "slam dunk"--no need to change the question being asked. Nor did I claim it was the" worst Bills 2nd rounder ever" (that's just lazy, brother). Your post indicates that drafting Gronkowski for the Bills would have had the same effect he had in the 2011 New England football season. Different teams, different QBs, different offensive philosophies, if that doesn't reek of lazy thought process I don't know what does. The "new regime's" first pick was a huge risk (a third RB) , so going after a TE an important position in most teams' offenses (and a screaming need of the Bills) with the second round of the draft instead of an NT was philosophically incorrect---that's part of the question or debate i meant to start. "On paper", i doubt anyone had Troup going early in the 2nd round, despite him "wrecking" the Conf USA (second team all conference junior year). In fact, it's likely he would have been there early in the third, where Nix blew the 3rd round pick on Carrington. Nix fell in love with Troup in the Shrine game, no doubt. You're getting cute right now. This is the first draft ever by this FO, they can't afford to draft a potential injury prone player, if you don't want to realize this fact, that is your problem. They drafted a playmaker (in their eyes) with the first round pick and they went after the NT position and DE position for the new defensive system to be installed. Gronkowski was projected to go in the second in many mocks, despite his previous surgery. In fact, due to the perceived relative weakness of the TE class, he was considered a top prospect at the position. The Bills likely could have picked both Gronkowski and Troup. In short, due to the relative value of the positions to be filled and needs at the time and to the opportunity cost of the pick (not all of which is based in hindsight, but with information known by the FO at the time), i think the pick of Troup was the worst 2nd rounder in the past decade. I agree the guy is talented but taking him was risk. I don't consider taking Troup a mistake, so your assertion is already wrong in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 George Edwards did not choose to convert to the 34, Buddy Nix did. And that decision forced Buffalo to use lots of personnel resources on moving from the cover two. I don't see a place for Troup anymore with the DL they have. He's depth. I thought the 3-4 was a gailey decision. Seems more coach than GM. In any case he was a big reach for that reason. If they weren't changing the D they may have opted to take a chance on the injured gronk given the chronic TE deficit and the importance of gates to buddy's former offense in San Diego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picnic Table F'er Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here had never heard of Gronk last draft. He was from Buffalo, I hope some of us heard of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 The worst? There have been many BAD BAD BAD second round picks. Troupe was a pick that was considered a bit of a "reach" by most NFL "experts" as Troupe was a projected 3rd rounder. There were a lot of good players on that board and this team could have definitely used a TE like Gronk. I think the need to draft Troupe came from Edwards' decision to switch to a 3-4. They needed someone they thought NT even if it meant bypassing other needs on the team. Edwards decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 Your thread consists of a thread title and a rotund "I say yes". There is nothing that indicates your post has any value. There is no thought process involved in it, hence the moronic statement by me. Freudian slip, no doubt. I was putting it out for discussion. I made my argument clear in subsequent posts. Whether the post "has value" is in the eye of the respondent. Your post indicates that drafting Gronkowski for the Bills would have had the same effect he had in the 2011 New England football season. Different teams, different QBs, different offensive philosophies, if that doesn't reek of lazy thought process I don't know what does. Again, you are arguing against points I haven't made. Even a journeyman backup TE like Chandler had success in Gailey's offensive philosophy (whatever that is)--although Chan seems to have discovered the TE very late in life. Gronkowski was a known entity. He was a risk because if a surgically repaired back, obviously (or this discussion wouldn't be as interesting). But the point remains that Troup was a reach in the second round and likely could have been had at Carrington's (who was also a reach) spot. Ironically, Troup is the injury prone player who now needs back surgery. You're getting cute right now. This is the first draft ever by this FO, they can't afford to draft a potential injury prone player, if you don't want to realize this fact, that is your problem. They drafted a playmaker (in their eyes) with the first round pick and they went after the NT position and DE position for the new defensive system to be installed. They also couldn't have afforded to blow a top ten pick for a position in which they had significant redundancy and who, it very soon became apparent, they had no idea how they were going to utilize. I agree the guy is talented but taking him was risk. I don't consider taking Troup a mistake, so your assertion is already wrong in my opinion. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I don't consider taking Troup a mistake You're right, it wasn't a mistake. It was a horrible pick by a blowhard GM who is proving why he was never tapped to be a GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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