Melt down in Indy…

[Alaska Darin]

Ryan Fitzpatrick signed to sit behind Trent Edwards. I think he would have taken a deal in Indianapolis if it was offered, and represents exactly the kind of player that they should have gone after. Mark Brunell has been deep on somebody's depth chart for a few years, too. There were definitely better options than Curtis Painter. Kerry Collins was closer to the right idea, except they didn't give him a full offseason on the roster.

Really? You think Fitzpatrick signed his contract believing he never had a shot of seeing the field in Buffalo? Somehow I doubt it.

 

Manning doesn't miss SNAPS, much less games. Hasn't for a couple of hundred games. Not too many competitive people are going to sign a contract to get 10% of the practice reps with zero chance of ever setting foot on the field. Fitz had to know that at some point Trentative was going to get smoked and he'd get his chance. It didn't take long...

 

The Colts have had a run that few teams in the modern era can match. Their problems have a lot more to do with hitting big on a large number of draft picks, then paying them to stick around. Add to that having to draft at the back end of every round for over a decade, while losing arguably the best and more important player of his generation, and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Fan in Chicago]

If the Bills lost 62 to zip you wouldnt be able to see Niagra Falls for "the get out of town" billboards.

Which begs the question - did the Saints have to run up the score ?

[Mr. WEO]

After last night's 62-7 prime time debacle which dropped the Colts to 0-7, you can all imagine the teeth gnashing going on in Indy.

 

There is actually some speculation that Irsay and Company could make a clean sweep and re-make the Colts Front Office, sans Bill, Chris, and Dennis Polian.

 

As many here have surmised over the past two seasons or so, the Colts are an average football team that overly relied on Peyton Manning, and now without him, they have been exposed.

 

In addition, the Colts have not been drafting well recently… supposedly one of Bill Polian's strengths.

 

I'm interested to hear people's opinions on the Indy situation and would love to hear from people living in the Indy area.

What Manning has masked most all these years is that the Colts haven't had a decent coach for his entire career.

 

Dungy parlayed incredible offensive talent and a decent D into exactly 1 SB ring. The guy they have now is a mannequin. There is now way that the ENTIRE team should fall apart with the QB out. 63 points to the Saints? That's like zero stops.

 

This team has to have a proper HC and staff in place before the draft or they will be wasting their pick on Luck.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Mr. WEO

[NoSaint]

Silvermike was good enough to name names… but one needn't do so to make the argument that there are competent backup quarterbacks available.

 

They had Sorgi for several years. If they had one with him, why should the Colts suddenly be unable to have a competent backup after him?

 

 

they could have drafted how many guys this year alone? a guy like mallett (like the patriots went and got despite brady) would have been a perfect option for a team like the colts. just because good qbs dont want to sign FA deals behind manning doesnt mean you cant just go get them. which makes it all the more frustratnig im sure - cant draft a qb because it will upset manning, but the talent they added around manning cant get it done without him.

 

What Manning has masked most all these years is that the Colts haven't had a decent coach for his entire career.

 

Dungy parlayed incredible offensive talent and a decent D into exactly 1 SB ring. The guy they have now is a mannequin. There is now way that the ENTIRE team should fall apart with the QB out. 63 points to the Saints? That's like zero stops.

 

This team has to have a proper HC and staff in place before the draft or they will be wasting their pick on Luck.

 

haha - they had one early where drew didnt see an open pierre thomas and forced a bad throw to the endzone (incomplete and a FG), and then at the end of the half with about 30 seconds and a timeout the saints decided to let the clock run to 3 secs and kick it, otherwise 0 stops against the first team. Starters were pulled tail end of the 3rd quarter, and the last 11 plays for the saints were hb dives. the only score in the 4th was a pick 6.

Edited October 24, 2011 by NoSaint

[dave mcbride]

Bill, with all due respect, how can you write 1-4 and then absolve Polian of blame ? I think Polian has to take the blame for this mess of a team sans PM. As far as teams, minus QBs, go I hate to admit that the Pats* are far superior to the Colts.

It is not just about having drafted/acquired a decent backup QB. But, also about building an overall team that does not depend so severely on one player. The corollary point I made several weeks back is that if Polian was that good, and with PM at QB, the COlts should have won at least 1-2 more superbowls. I hear what you say about salary, but then the negotiations should have centered around a number (PM's comprensation) that does not restrict team building.

 

All in all, I place the blame squarely at Polian's feet. And maybe the Colts fans realize that, in the long run, it is better that this situation happened (note: I am NOT cheering an injury) now instead of later. The process of team building can begin now and in the next offseason and not when PM was ready to retire.

 

The Colts' record from 1999-2010 is 138-54 (.719 winning pct.). How can anyone blame Polian for a record like that over a dozen years? Every team has a trough at some point. Some people clearly adhere to the most extreme version of the "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" approach to life ...

[Fan in Chicago]

The Colts' record from 1999-2010 is 138-54 (.719 winning pct.). How can anyone blame Polian for a record like that over a dozen years? Every team has a trough at some point. Some people clearly adhere to the most extreme version of the "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" approach to life ...

It is not a matter of what the recent success has been. If you are satisfied with one ring after having one of the best QBs ever to play the game, more power to you. But this is equivalent to saying that Cowher is a genius HC when in fact, he should have had one or two more rings with that defense.

If the Bills were led by PM for 10+ years, I would have expected more rings. Again, see the success of the Pats* with arguably a less superior QB.

[apuszczalowski]

The Colts' record from 1999-2010 is 138-54 (.719 winning pct.). How can anyone blame Polian for a record like that over a dozen years? Every team has a trough at some point. Some people clearly adhere to the most extreme version of the "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" approach to life ...

And as you can see by this season, that stat has more to do with making the right decision of Manning over Leaf then making good moves every offseason to build a contender.

 

The pats have one of the best QB's in the league too, but as seen when Brady went down, they also have a great team around him.

The Colts on the other hand, have a great QB that is carrying the team on his own

[dave mcbride]

It is not a matter of what the recent success has been. If you are satisfied with one ring after having one of the best QBs ever to play the game, more power to you. But this is equivalent to saying that Cowher is a genius HC when in fact, he should have had one or two more rings with that defense.

If the Bills were led by PM for 10+ years, I would have expected more rings. Again, see the success of the Pats* with arguably a less superior QB.

You may think I'm wrongheaded, but I don't buy into the SB-ring-or-nothing mentality. It's kind of like baseball - to paraphrase, you can buy a pennant winner but you can't buy a world series victory because anything can happen in a short series. It's similar in football -- the best GMs can build a perennial division winner, but you can't build a SB team. Playoff games are too much of a crapshoot (witness the best team in the league last year, the Pats, losing at home to the Jets in the playoffs). The Colts got to the SB twice in that 12-year timeframe, which is pretty good given the fact that the AFC was the dominant conference over that era. The other teams that made it? The Pats did it four times, the Steelers three times, the Titans once, the Raiders once, and the Ravens once. It's not easy to get there, and oftentimes the best teams don't win it. Consequently, I tend to judge a GM on his ability to build a consistent winner, and the Colts have been nothing but consistent winners for a very, very long period of time. If you're going to start naming teams that have underperformed in the postseason, start with the Chargers, Jets, and Ravens.

 

And as you can see by this season, that stat has more to do with making the right decision of Manning over Leaf then making good moves every offseason to build a contender.

 

The pats have one of the best QB's in the league too, but as seen when Brady went down, they also have a great team around him.

The Colts on the other hand, have a great QB that is carrying the team on his own

I would say that the offense that Polian built around Manning was perfect for their offense - excellent route runners with TEs who can get down the field plus north-south RBs who can excel on stretch plays and the like. And, given that the offense was always going to score points, the Colts needed pass rushers. Polian drafted the best pass rusher in the league for the last half decade, Dwight Freeney.

Edited October 24, 2011 by dave mcbride

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

There are so many ways to go with this.....

 

1) The Bills have never been in a situation where they have a top 5 all time qb on their team who ate up such a huge chunk of the payroll, let alone in a salary cap era.

 

2) For the record, the year before they drafted manning, they too Tarik Glenn (LT) and Adam Meadows (RT) in rounds 1 and 2.

 

3) Polian (no, I don't have a link) admitted that he was either missing on picks and/or neglecting the OL of late.

 

4) The Colts are a dome team. Their defense was small and fast. A player such as Freeney could pin his ears back and go for the sack because Manning would pile up points and make teams have to pass. Manning made that team. It's been obvious for a while.

 

In other words, Polian isn't the problem. He built his team according to circumstance, and probably whiffed a few times along the way. He is a winner, and built great teams wherever he went. He has a line of people who worked under him that were successful.

 

Think about Polian, then give some thought to Levy/Jauron.

 

 

Bill, with all due respect, one can criticize Polian without needing to defend Levy/Jauron, who were a catastrophe.

 

Polian has done wonderful things, for sure. My thought on all this, which may or may not be shared by others, is that the collapse of the Colts shows how silly it is to christen anyone a "genius" without reference to how much unplanned dumb luck goes into sports success. Polian drafted Manning, and the Colts have been good as long as Manning has played well, but neither Polian nor any other GM or Coach has the magical power to make bad players good. GMs and Coaches help at the margin—making good players work together better, or filling the holes around excellent players. Polian was once very good at that, but what the Colts have become is an indication that the past few years have not been as good. In fact, none of the successful teams Polian built—not the Bills, not the Panthers, and apparently not the Colts as of this year—have carried on after the central core of great players faded. Heck, he barely lasted four years in Carolina at all, which everyone seems to forget. He caught lightning in a bottle, but then fled the scene.

 

On a related point, this is why I do not like the term "dynasty," which is used much too loosely. There have been great teams, sure, but most of them are only great as long as the core of great players has been around. A "dynasty," which suggests to me continued success through several "generations," only exists when a team can stay on top consistently as the cast changes. By that more stringent criteria, good teams like the Steel Curtain Steelers are not a dynasty, since they floundered after Bradshaw and Co. left. The only real dynasties that I can think of are the Raiders from 1967 to 1983 or maybe the Dolphins between 1970 and 1994, or the Cowboys between 1966 and 1983.

 

That may be an issue for another thread. But there it is.

[Ramius]

One major problem for the Colts is that Jim Caldwell might be the worst coach in the entire league (he's battling it out with tony sparano). He's absolute garbage, and the colts almost deserve this one, because his "hire" was nothing more than blatant cronyism by tony dungy.

[Mr. WEO]

And as you can see by this season, that stat has more to do with making the right decision of Manning over Leaf then making good moves every offseason to build a contender.

 

The pats have one of the best QB's in the league too, but as seen when Brady went down, they also have a great team around him.

The Colts on the other hand, have a great QB that is carrying the team on his own

Not quite. The Colts carried MAnning to his only career SB win.

 

Manning has had, during his career, some of the best players in the league at WR (multiple), TE, RB, o-line and in his D front seven and DBs.

 

As I said before, Manning has masked over a decade of inadequate coaching that continues in the ridiculous selection of their current HC. It's like Polian has been telling the world that his guy Manning is so good that it doesn't matter who the coach is. Now that Manning is done, Polian's arrogance may be exposed as incompetence.

 

Unbelievable they didn't draft a QB this year when so many were there to be had.

[Rob's House]

One major problem for the Colts is that Jim Caldwell might be the worst coach in the entire league (he's battling it out with tony sparano). He's absolute garbage, and the colts almost deserve this one, because his "hire" was nothing more than blatant cronyism by tony dungy.

This is what I was looking for.

 

I knew this guy was a bum when he basically decided to give up on an undefeated season for the sake of proving they weren't trying to go undefeated. I get it that you'd rather win a SB, but come on, only 2 teams in history have gone undefeated in the regular season and to throw that away just because is absurd.

[DrFishfinder]

Who were they going to sign that was content sitting behind Manning for years on end? Having Rodgers behind Favre is the exception not the rule

 

Who would have been a worse choice than Painter? Hmmmmm?

 

Which begs the question - did the Saints have to run up the score ?

 

Good point. That .was an unnecessary run up.

[spartacus]

Good points but as others here have pointed out, isn't it on Polian that the Colts do not have a good backup QB situation?

 

Also, the main cogs on the team, Jeff Saturday, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, and Dwight Freeney are all on the backsides of their careers. The team seems to have gotten old all at once, which is also a function of bad planning.

 

The subtext for this discussion is largely about Bill Polian's legacy.

 

Polian has done a great job in Buffalo, Carolina, and in Indy but his last few years seem far below the standards he set earlier in his career.

 

I'm wondering a bit also how well served Bill Polian has been by hiring his sons into the Colts front office.

 

 

The Polian legacy will be that he rode Peyton Manning for a decade, then tanked a year and got the next Peyton manning in Andrew Luck for the next decade.

 

 

With the league featuring the pass, it is even more important to have an elite QB now than the last decade.

 

What's the point of winning a few games when you can tank out and get a superstar.

 

too bad Chan didn't tank all out to get Cam - winning 3 games that year was pointless, especially after starting 0-8.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

Who would have been a worse choice than Painter? Hmmmmm?

 

 

 

Good point. That .was an unnecessary run up.

 

Did you watch the game? Starters were pulled mid third. They stopped taking shots at the end of the half inside fg range with 30secs and a timeout. What were they supposed to do? They called a HB dive for the last 11 plays!

[DrFishfinder]

Did you watch the game? Starters were pulled mid third. They stopped taking shots at the end of the half inside fg range with 30secs and a timeout. What were they supposed to do? They called a HB dive for the last 11 plays!

 

Are you kidding, watch that game? I wasn't that hard up for a football fix. The Colts were that bad? Yeesh.

[Indy Dave]

One major problem for the Colts is that Jim Caldwell might be the worst coach in the entire league (he's battling it out with tony sparano). He's absolute garbage, and the colts almost deserve this one, because his "hire" was nothing more than blatant cronyism by tony dungy.

 

Not sure how it took 2+ pages to point this out. Thank you Ramius.

 

If Jim Caldwell was a white guy, his name would be Dick Jauron.

[NoSaint]

Not sure how it took 2+ pages to point this out. Thank you Ramius.

 

If Jim Caldwell was a white guy, his name would be Dick Jauron.

 

I point to that first fumble as a HUGE red flag. First drive, should be scripted plays still and painter is running all over with 10 seconds on the play clock trying to tell guys where to lineup and what the play is. The dome was loud, but not thaaat loud. Even if it was, it should've been an easy pre planned drive. Either it wasn't well planned or the players didn't care to learn it or something.... No matter what - bad!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

And who hired Jim Caldwell?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Good points but as others here have pointed out, isn't it on Polian that the Colts do not have a good backup QB situation?

 

Also, the main cogs on the team, Jeff Saturday, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, and Dwight Freeney are all on the backsides of their careers. The team seems to have gotten old all at once, which is also a function of bad planning.

 

The subtext for this discussion is largely about Bill Polian's legacy.

 

Polian has done a great job in Buffalo, Carolina, and in Indy but his last few years seem far below the standards he set earlier in his career.

 

I'm wondering a bit also how well served Bill Polian has been by hiring his sons into the Colts front office.

 

Seems like polian is retired already. Remember buf got old at once too. Colts are there. If the colts land luck it could end up like gb where there usher out the hall of famer to implant the next.

 

Caldwell reminds me of wade Phillips out there with that same clueless expression..