Bye Week Extensions?

[1B4IDie]

Do you not realize that 5 year 50 million contract IS cheap.

It doesn't lock you in to anything more than 3 years and the signing Bonus and it doesn't stop you from signing FAs or drafting a QB.

Why would anyone want to risk going into 2012 with Thigpen as the starter?

This is the NFL you can cut a player at any time.

 

When was the lat time a back to back 3,000+ yard 20+ TD QB was a free agent?

No franchise would be stupid enough to let that QB hit free agency, except for maybe the cheap Bills and their cheap fans.

 

Freakin' classic post.

 

You are one of the most vocal "Ralph is cheap" posters on this forum, and now you are advocating the Bills go the cheap route.

 

Frigging Brilliant!

 

Pay the man. Fitzparick may not be the long term answer at QB, but he is the answer for right now.

+1

 

For a while I have been thinking that it would be to the Bills' advantage to extend some of these key pieces (Fitz, Stevie, Fred) this year and front load the contract to take the cap hit this year (given that we are so far under the cap this year).

 

Is there any competitive reason not to do that?

 

Shouldn't we take advantage of being so far under the cap this year to give us more flexibility withe cap in future years?

 

Am I missing something?

I think your missing that a team that wants to be competitive in the future and has basic understanding of math and football business would do what you described.

 

A team that cant spell W would play low ball and then watch their key piece walk in FA so they can save a million bucks. Even though they have a salary minimum they have to meet in the future.

 

If Fitzy walks, Kelsay will probably be happy they can extend him again to get to the league minimum. Genius!

Edited October 17, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[billsfreak]

Freakin' classic post.

 

You are one of the most vocal "Ralph is cheap" posters on this forum, and now you are advocating the Bills go the cheap route.

 

Frigging Brilliant!

 

Pay the man. Fitzparick may not be the long term answer at QB, but he is the answer for right now.

I am in no way advocating that the Bills go the Cheap Route, and I never even hinted at that, you just read into it so you have some sarcastic but useless input to this subject. In fact, I didn't even say I wouldnt sign Fitz, I just don't think he is worth $10 million a year. There is a big difference between "Going Cheap" and "Not Overpaying", it is pretty simple, I guess like some of the people on this board. Going Cheap is getting rid of any established veterans that might be making what they deserve just to dump their salary and replace them all with low draft picks, undrafted players or other teams' castoffs. Not overpaying someone isnt the same as Going Cheap, it is smart organizational management. You are a little contradictory arent you? In my book, 5 years is a long time in the NFL, and you say yourself that Fitz isn't the long term answer, but then you say pay him? Which is it? I guess you don't take the time to think, you just jump at the chance to try to take a dig at someone else, when it turn it only makes you look like a fool.

Edited October 17, 2011 by billsfreak

[Rico]

No need to extend Freddy right now, just give him a big fat raise.

[Captain Hindsight]

Sometime you have to pay a little more than you think someone is worth in order to keep them. Pay the man or we walk into next season with Tyler Thigpen. You want to be a laughing stock? Thats a great way to do it

 

And Stevie is worth top 10 money. A 4th year reciever likely coming off 2 consecutive 1000 yard 10 TD seasons? If we don't pay him somebody will

[1B4IDie]

No need to extend Freddy right now, just give him a big fat raise.

This shows the clueless nature.

There is no such thing as a raise and no such thing as a binding contract in the NFL.

The only thing that counts is the upfront money.

The years are there so the team can spread the cost of the upfront money.

 

So you give Freddy a "raise" by giving him a contact extention and you can cut him any day of the week.

It's very rare a player actually plays out a contract.

 

I am in no way advocating that the Bills go the Cheap Route, and I never even hinted at that, you just read into it so you have some sarcastic but useless input to this subject. In fact, I didn't even say I wouldnt sign Fitz, I just don't think he is worth $10 million a year. There is a big difference between "Going Cheap" and "Not Overpaying", it is pretty simple, I guess like some of the people on this board. Going Cheap is getting rid of any established veterans that might be making what they deserve just to dump their salary and replace them all with low draft picks, undrafted players or other teams' castoffs. Not overpaying someone isnt the same as Going Cheap, it is smart organizational management. You are a little contradictory arent you? In my book, 5 years is a long time in the NFL, and you say yourself that Fitz isn't the long term answer, but then you say pay him? Which is it? I guess you don't take the time to think, you just jump at the chance to try to take a dig at someone else, when it turn it only makes you look like a fool.

5 years means nothing.

Do you understand that?

 

You can cut him if he doesn't perform.

 

The numbers work where you can still draft a first round QB and still afford a 1st or second round QB for atleast 2 seasons.

 

Cut Fitz in the 3rd year and have the theoretical, easy to find "franchise" QB you just drafted start.

 

No big deal.

[billsfreak]

This shows the clueless nature.

There is no such thing as a raise and no such thing as a binding contract in the NFL.

The only thing that counts is the upfront money.

The years are there so the team can spread the cost of the upfront money.

 

So you give Freddy a "raise" by giving him a contact extention and you can cut him any day of the week.

It's very rare a player actually plays out a contract.

 

 

5 years means nothing.

Do you understand that?

 

You can cut him if he doesn't perform.

 

The numbers work where you can still draft a first round QB and still afford a 1st or second round QB for atleast 2 seasons.

 

Cut Fitz in the 3rd year and have the theoretical, easy to find "franchise" QB you just drafted start.

 

No big deal.

I heard on one of the telecasts that he was asking that his contract be reworked. He is signed through the 2012 season, getting "only" 1.83 million dollars next year, so he might be the biggest bargain in the NFL this year ($1.75 mil this year). I wouldn't give him a huge signing bonus, for a back his age he could break down anytime, but you are correct, 5 years means nothing, as the team can terminate it anytime. The only money that matters is the guaranteed signing bonus, and I would give him a good amount, but mainly add a year or two and triple the amount he is making over the remaining contract.

[1B4IDie]

I heard on one of the telecasts that he was asking that his contract be reworked. He is signed through the 2012 season, getting "only" 1.83 million dollars next year, so he might be the biggest bargain in the NFL this year ($1.75 mil this year). I wouldn't give him a huge signing bonus, for a back his age he could break down anytime, but you are correct, 5 years means nothing, as the team can terminate it anytime. The only money that matters is the guaranteed signing bonus, and I would give him a good amount, but mainly add a year or two and triple the amount he is making over the remaining contract.

 

Freddy should get 3 year (wink) 18 mil. About 9 guaranteed.

 

And 5 year 48 mill about 20 guaranteed makes sense for Fitzy.

 

SJ13 is gonna be a lot more than people are going to like because he is going to command a lot in FA. Top 10 money. You're paying for potential.

 

If SJ walks, with his blooming leadership and buffalo pride it would be a shame.

 

Even after all this, the Bills are still way under the cap.

[Cynical]

I am in no way advocating that the Bills go the Cheap Route, and I never even hinted at that,

 

Really? Sure seems like you did:

"You can draft a quarterback, 10 years younger then Fitz, and with the new rookie salary structure pay him less".

First, Fitz is 28, and will be 29 when the season ends.

Second, how the hell you draft somebody 10 years younger than that is quite a mystery. Even if you could, why would you want to?

(How many 19-20 year old starting QBs are there in the NFL? )

you just read into it so you have some sarcastic but useless input to this subject. In fact, I didn't even say I wouldnt sign Fitz, I just don't think he is worth $10 million a year.

 

And if he doesn't want to sign what the Bills are offering, you have a solution:

"You can draft a quarterback, 10 years younger then Fitz, and with the new rookie salary structure pay him less".

 

Not overpaying someone isnt the same as Going Cheap, it is smart organizational management.

 

Fitzpatrick plays QB. You do realize that, correct? We are not talking about a LB or SS or WR, etc...

A QB. Probably the hardest position to fill on a team. You don't toss a player like Fitzpatrick away, and go out to the QB "store" and get another one.

Have you forgotten the past 10 years? Do the names Trent Edwards, JP Losman, etc... ring a bell?

 

You are a little contradictory arent you?

 

Nope.

 

In my book, 5 years is a long time in the NFL, and you say yourself that Fitz isn't the long term answer, but then you say pay him? Which is it?

 

5 years for RB is a long time.

5 years for a QB under 30? Not really.

(Hate to break it you, but QB's can play into their late 30's. Fitzpatrick has an easy 5+ years remaining in his career)

 

"Smart Organizational Management" behavior would look something like this:

1. Realize the QB position is the hardest position to fill on a team, and players like Fitzpatrick are not a dime a dozen. (If they can sign him for less than he's asking, great. But under no circumstance does he walk)

2. Realize that even though Fitz may not lead you to the promised land, he can lead the team to a winning record and possible playoff appearances.

3. Realize winning records and playoffs keep fans and other NFL free agents interested in the team (even for the Bills who only sign a few FA a year)

4. Realize that because of the rookie salary cap, it actually becomes possible to pay Fitzpatrick AND to draft his replacement.

5. Realize Fitz is good enough for now, while his replacement sits on the bench a couple of years learning. (No need to rush the young gun into the fire)

6. Realize, because the team uses "cash to cap" for player salary accounting, they can cut Fitz 3-4 years later with minimal salary cap hit (assuming Fitz refuses to be a back up)

 

Or, they just could do it your way:

1. Play hard ball with Fitz (Don't want to overpay for the QB position)

2. Assuming Fitz refuses, draft a QB (and because of the rookie salary structure, it will be cheaper!!!)

 

It's not like the Bills have to worry about some nonsense like a high failure rate for young QB's coming out of college.

The Bills drafted 2 QB's in the past 10 years, and rushed them into the starting lineup way before they were ready.

Look how good they turned out.

 

I guess you don't take the time to think, you just jump at the chance to try to take a dig at someone else, when it turn it only makes you look like a fool.

 

Um, Mirror?

[benderbender]

Even after all this, the Bills are still way under the cap.

 

Exactly. Lets get these deals done. I am so tired of watching talent walk away because the purse strings were too tight.

[Wayne Fontes]

 

 

And Stevie is worth top 10 money. A 4th year reciever likely coming off 2 consecutive 1000 yard 10 TD seasons? If we don't pay him somebody will

 

Stevie is an interesting case. He doesn't have a lot of speed but he's crafty and scores. He reminds me of Marques Colston in terms of production and Colston is making 3M/per in what I'm guessing was his second contract (according to rotoworld). I love me some Stevie, but 8-9M/per for him seems ludicrous since he is likely to play out his contract due to his age.

 

Colston: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9838/marques-colston

[HalftimeAdjustment]

People saying player X is not worth $10M/year, or using contracts from a few years back to compare values, are not looking at the new market for players under the new CBA. Rookie pay was reduced but veteran pay increased, effectively, once the salary minimums kick in. Now it is not about saving money, but allocating the money you are spending efficiently.

 

So if Fitz is not worth $10M/year, can you find someone for $10M/year who is worth it in your opinion, and will not be paid $12-14M by another team? If Steve Johnson is not worth $7-8M/year, can you find a receiver who is worth it for $7-8M/year that will not be offered $9M/year by another team? Or would you prefer to have a quarterback for $7M/year who is only worth $7M/year, and do you think they will be better than Fitz? Maybe you would prefer to see the larger amounts paid to another position, or would you like to have a team of only mediocre players so no one gets over $4-5M/yr regardless of position?

 

As for rookies being cheaper - this will be true regardless of position. So one strategy, I guess, would be to use rookies at the most overpaid positions (QB, OT?, CB?, DE?) and pay for veterans at other positions; this would allow you to really get stacked at other positions in theory, since you still have to spend the minimum. I hope some team does try this so we can see how it works. I also hope that it is not the Bills who try this.

 

In my opinion, none of the players are "worth" the amounts being described, but the market will determine their value if we do not reach an agreement. Some of us may be surprised by how the market values these players. Exhibit A: Paul Posluszny. 6yr, $42M. Does that mean he is "worth" $7M/year? Not likely, in production terms; but it's what the market will bear.

 

For reference, recent (2010+) non-rookie QB deals per Rotoworld. Anything earlier, I am disregarding as out-of-date. These are total values and many deals may be voidable or never intended to reach their full value. Based on the below information, Fitz is in good shape asking for closer to $10M/year than $7M/year. There will definitely be a team willing to pay him more than $7M/year and we will be unlikely to get a replacement QB of similar stats for under $10M/year, unless it is a rookie. Anyone want McNabb or Kerry Collins for $7M/year, that is what $7M buys you...

 

John Beck, 3yr, $3.3M, 2010 ($1.1M/yr)

Rex Grossman, 1yr, $1.15M, 2011 ($1.15M/yr)

Alex Smith, 1yr, $4M, 2011 ($4M/yr)

Tarvaris Jackson, 2yr, $8M, 2011 ($4M/yr)

Kyle Orton, 2yr, $11.6M, 2011 ($5.8M/yr)

Matt Hasselbeck, 3yr, $20M, 2011 ($6.7M/yr)

Kerry Collins, 2yr, $14M, 2010 ($7M/yr)

Donovan McNabb, 1yr, $7.25M, 2011 ($7M/yr)

Kevin Kolb, 6yr, $65M, 2011 ($10.8M/yr)

Tom Brady, 5yr, $78.5M, 2010 ($15.7M/yr)

Michael Vick, 6yr, $100M, 2011 ($16.6M/yr)

[ny33]

I'd like to see Fitzpatrick sign a deal in the range of 5 years, $40 million, with $15 million guaranteed. Right now I'm more concerned that the Bills won't pull the trigger for some much needed WR and pass-rusher depth.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Last night Murph said the Bills were negotiating with Fitz. The Bills offered $7 million for 4 to 5 years and Fitz's agent was asking for $10 million.

Bills should hold firm because Fitz will never be that elite "Manning, Brady, Rodgers" QB.

[1B4IDie]

Imagine the 'Fins loose the Luck bowl and SJ13 and Fitzy are free agents. They draft say Cousins from Michigan st in the second or third. They go o-line, o-line with the other two picks out of their first 3.

You don't think they'd give a 6 $60 mil contract to Fitzy (Knowing it may mean 3 years) and an 8 year $75 million to Stevie?

 

In a freaking heartbeat.

You get a WR-QB combo that already has the timing.

That goes right into Place with Brandon Marshall and Daniel Thomas and you don't break the bank. Plus you just killed a division rival. Worth every penny.

 

All this while the Cheap Bills and cheap Bills fans got to save a million because in a vacuum "he's not worth 10 a season."

 

PAY YOUR BILLS!

 

This scenario is not outlandish and don't think Fitzy and SJ and their agents aren't smart enough to go to market as a package deal. Never happened before but letting a QB with Fitzy's resume and a WR with SJ's resume and age become free agents doesn't happen too often individually.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Even not considering yesterday, no way in that hot place down below do I pay Fitz $10 million for 5 years. You can draft a quarterback, 10 years younger then Fitz, and with the new rookie salary structure pay him less. We could have had Dareus and Dalton out of the past draft if we wanted to.

Don't worry we will be drafting Tannehill to groom behind Fitzy, then we will have a QB with the smarts of Fitz and almost the Talent of Newton which will be one awesome QB.

[NoSaint]

Stevie is an interesting case. He doesn't have a lot of speed but he's crafty and scores. He reminds me of Marques Colston in terms of production and Colston is making 3M/per in what I'm guessing was his second contract (according to rotoworld). I love me some Stevie, but 8-9M/per for him seems ludicrous since he is likely to play out his contract due to his age.

 

Colston: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9838/marques-colston

 

Colston signed a ridiculously undervalued contract to end his 7th round pay.

[CodeMonkey]

I like Fitz but $10M??

 

PTR

Hopefully they split the difference and end up at 8.5 for 4-5 years.

He has shown he is worth that much anyway. If they get a good young QB I can think of no one better to groom him with the possible exception of P. Manning.

[1B4IDie]

Really? Sure seems like you did:

"You can draft a quarterback, 10 years younger then Fitz, and with the new rookie salary structure pay him less".

 

5 years for RB is a long time.

5 years for a QB under 30? Not really.

(Hate to break it you, but QB's can play into their late 30's. Fitzpatrick has an easy 5+ years remaining in his career)

 

"Smart Organizational Management" behavior would look something like this:

1. Realize the QB position is the hardest position to fill on a team, and players like Fitzpatrick are not a dime a dozen. (If they can sign him for less than he's asking, great. But under no circumstance does he walk)

2. Realize that even though Fitz may not lead you to the promised land, he can lead the team to a winning record and possible playoff appearances.

3. Realize winning records and playoffs keep fans and other NFL free agents interested in the team (even for the Bills who only sign a few FA a year)

4. Realize that because of the rookie salary cap, it actually becomes possible to pay Fitzpatrick AND to draft his replacement.

5. Realize Fitz is good enough for now, while his replacement sits on the bench a couple of years learning. (No need to rush the young gun into the fire)

6. Realize, because the team uses "cash to cap" for player salary accounting, they can cut Fitz 3-4 years later with minimal salary cap hit (assuming Fitz refuses to be a back up)

 

Or, they just could do it your way:

1. Play hard ball with Fitz (Don't want to overpay for the QB position)

2. Assuming Fitz refuses, draft a QB (and because of the rookie salary structure, it will be cheaper!!!)

 

It's not like the Bills have to worry about some nonsense like a high failure rate for young QB's coming out of college.

The Bills drafted 2 QB's in the past 10 years, and rushed them into the starting lineup way before they were ready.

Look how good they turned out.

 

 

 

Um, Mirror?

 

Finally some people that are making sense.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Exactly. Lets get these deals done. I am so tired of watching talent walk away because the purse strings were too tight.

 

 

People saying player X is not worth $10M/year, or using contracts from a few years back to compare values, are not looking at the new market for players under the new CBA. Rookie pay was reduced but veteran pay increased, effectively, once the salary minimums kick in. Now it is not about saving money, but allocating the money you are spending efficiently.

 

So if Fitz is not worth $10M/year, can you find someone for $10M/year who is worth it in your opinion, and will not be paid $12-14M by another team? If Steve Johnson is not worth $7-8M/year, can you find a receiver who is worth it for $7-8M/year that will not be offered $9M/year by another team? Or would you prefer to have a quarterback for $7M/year who is only worth $7M/year, and do you think they will be better than Fitz? Maybe you would prefer to see the larger amounts paid to another position, or would you like to have a team of only mediocre players so no one gets over $4-5M/yr regardless of position?

 

As for rookies being cheaper - this will be true regardless of position. So one strategy, I guess, would be to use rookies at the most overpaid positions (QB, OT?, CB?, DE?) and pay for veterans at other positions; this would allow you to really get stacked at other positions in theory, since you still have to spend the minimum. I hope some team does try this so we can see how it works. I also hope that it is not the Bills who try this.

 

In my opinion, none of the players are "worth" the amounts being described, but the market will determine their value if we do not reach an agreement. Some of us may be surprised by how the market values these players. Exhibit A: Paul Posluszny. 6yr, $42M. Does that mean he is "worth" $7M/year? Not likely, in production terms; but it's what the market will bear.

 

For reference, recent (2010+) non-rookie QB deals per Rotoworld. Anything earlier, I am disregarding as out-of-date. These are total values and many deals may be voidable or never intended to reach their full value. Based on the below information, Fitz is in good shape asking for closer to $10M/year than $7M/year. There will definitely be a team willing to pay him more than $7M/year and we will be unlikely to get a replacement QB of similar stats for under $10M/year, unless it is a rookie. Anyone want McNabb or Kerry Collins for $7M/year, that is what $7M buys you...

 

John Beck, 3yr, $3.3M, 2010 ($1.1M/yr)

Rex Grossman, 1yr, $1.15M, 2011 ($1.15M/yr)

Alex Smith, 1yr, $4M, 2011 ($4M/yr)

Tarvaris Jackson, 2yr, $8M, 2011 ($4M/yr)

Kyle Orton, 2yr, $11.6M, 2011 ($5.8M/yr)

Matt Hasselbeck, 3yr, $20M, 2011 ($6.7M/yr)

Kerry Collins, 2yr, $14M, 2010 ($7M/yr)

Donovan McNabb, 1yr, $7.25M, 2011 ($7M/yr)

Kevin Kolb, 6yr, $65M, 2011 ($10.8M/yr)

Tom Brady, 5yr, $78.5M, 2010 ($15.7M/yr)

Michael Vick, 6yr, $100M, 2011 ($16.6M/yr)

 

Seriously, it's not like we spent the last 10 years trying to find a QB or anything,

You can just find one then pay them whatever you feel like because they're so easy to find.

We just didn't want a QB for the last decade.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[PaattMaann]

even though contracts arent gauranteed to a player, if you cut a player who has contract remaining, doesnt that money still count against your available cap space for the next season?

[1B4IDie]

even though contracts arent gauranteed to a player, if you cut a player who has contract remaining, doesnt that money still count against your available cap space for the next season?

 

The guaranteed part counts against cap, not the salary.

 

You're basically amortizing the signing bonus and guaranteed money over the term of the contract.

 

So giving Freddy 9 mil (much deserved) in guaranteed money over 3 years, will cost the Bills 3 Mil against the cap for the next 3 years.

The great thing is if you do this mid season (Like this week). It will cost 3 Mil in 2011, 3 mil in 2012, and 3 mil in 2013.

 

So even if he isn't on the roster you get to spread out the cap hit. There is also funny money ways to spread it out. Since they are so far below the salary cap they may want to take the cap hit upfront and in 2012.

 

Either way its not a lot o money, all things considered, and it is the right thing to do. Taking care of players that perform beyond their contract motivates the 7th rounders and UDFA, they know if they do well they'll eventually get paid by the organization. Not paying Freddy tells the young players and the rest of the NFL if you want to get paid you have to go to another team because Buffalo will not pay you even when you perform.