Jets Franchising David Harris

[Dawgg]

It's a good thing Marv Levy gave up a high 3rd round pick just to move up 9 spots in the second round to pick Poz when Harris was on the board.

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

If by "franchise" you mean "find his replacement" then yes, we should definitely franchise Poz. One of the many disastrous moves made by Marv which set this franchise back 4 years.

[Nanker]

Poz is another one who should have his agent working the phones.

[dave mcbride]

I have to laugh at the gist of this thread. Was he drafted too high given his productivity? Perhaps. Would he start for practically every team in the NFL? Yes. People need to get over their small resentments regarding the Marv years. It's so over. He's a pretty solid player, and the Bills don't have enough of them.

 

Jeez.

[JohnC]

If by "franchise" you mean "find his replacement" then yes, we should definitely franchise Poz. One of the many disastrous moves made by Marv which set this franchise back 4 years.

 

How can someone oversee an operation making so many bad decisions in such a short period of time? If he would have remained for another few years the franchise would have been crippled beyond repair. It is so stunningly bad. Sad, just so sad.

[Koufax]

I don't know. If the gist of this is negativity, then yes, we should laugh at it.

 

But if the gist of it is understanding that great drafts depend on talent evaluation and good luck, and not always the highest picks, then we can learn something from this as well, regarding our expectations as fans and the strategy we want to see our front office pursue.

 

I have in other threads defended the strength of the Lynch/Poz/Trent draft, even though they haven't turned into our three cornerstone Pro Bowlers. I think they were pretty good draft day decisions, even though the wisdom of trading up can usually be questioned and value isn't usually there.

 

But the Jets got Revis/Harris with their picks after, both after we got Lynch/Poz respectively. You can nit pick every draft this way, and that isn't productive. It is different than Whitner/Ngata or Maybin/Orakpo where there was a lot of agreement who the best player was, and we didn't pick him. But still it is illustrative of the fact that we need three things going our way on draft day:

 

1) Buddy making smart talent assessments on how good each football player is.

2) Us taking the best football player. We took Lynch because RB was a need. The needs move like a revolving door from year to year (even when we don't pick those needs like our LT/QB need draft last year). Getting great players matters most.

3) Some luck. Both in determining the best player, and then on that player developing and staying healthy. Scouting isn't an exact science. Some teams do it better than others, and on the aggregate reap the rewards, but each draft is full of uncertainty no matter what.

 

Those things at the moment guide the only semi-informed fan that I am towards the unpopular pick of AJ Green. I don't see Dareus or Peterson or Bowers as as talented a football player right now. I'm sure Nix is working on a lot of different information than we are, but I hope the methodology of his decision is the same.

 

BPA isn't just the highest guy on Kiper's board or the best college performer. It is the best likely expectation of what the player will do over five or more years, and that takes some complex assessment of talents and a lot of projection. And while Harris has proven to be the more successful player, I think that Poz was the reasonable draft day BPA, and I'm okay with the draft choice because of that.

 

I have to laugh at the gist of this thread. Was he drafted too high given his productivity? Perhaps. Would he start for practically every team in the NFL? Yes. People need to get over their small resentments regarding the Marv years. It's so over. He's a pretty solid player, and the Bills don't have enough of them.

 

Jeez.

[K-9]

I have to laugh at the gist of this thread. Was he drafted too high given his productivity? Perhaps. Would he start for practically every team in the NFL? Yes. People need to get over their small resentments regarding the Marv years. It's so over. He's a pretty solid player, and the Bills don't have enough of them.

 

Jeez.

 

You have no idea how much I wish I could agree with you about PP. I loved the pick 4 yours ago and I was really hoping he'd develop into a solid LB.

 

But I've seen enough of his bad angles and inability to shed blocks over the last four seasons to convince me he's pedestrian at best. Every time he made the occasional big play I'd think, "OK. He's finally getting it." But that one nice play is too often overshadowed by the nine bad plays he makes.

 

Many make the argument that if we had a Phat Pat in the middle to occupy two OLmen then our LBs would be free to make every play. But that's only true to a point. An LB, especially an MLB, must be able to shed blocks and make plays. Far too often PP can't do that. His bad pursuit angles make it too easy for him to get swallowed up. Hell, he takes himself out of so many plays by over-pursuing that sometimes blockers don't even HAVE to get in his way.

 

I'm the last guy to run a player out of town. We need to be patient with these kids and give 'em a few seasons before pronouncing them good or not. Some players, like Poz, make it more difficult to close the book on. He's a great kid by all accounts. And he's got that leadership quality that every team needs.

 

But if you don't make enough plays then you can't play. IMHO he's a back-up at best in the NFL. That said, I hope he proves me wrong with his next team. I wish him the best.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited February 6, 2011 by K-9

[Dr. Trooth]

"SHould the Bills franchise Poz"?

 

There is not one single player on the Bills that should be considered fo that Tag? You're telling the world that you think Poz is equal to or greater than the top five LBs in the game? Seriously, is that what you believe? Think that over.

[spartacus]

I don't know. If the gist of this is negativity, then yes, we should laugh at it.

 

But if the gist of it is understanding that great drafts depend on talent evaluation and good luck, and not always the highest picks, then we can learn something from this as well, regarding our expectations as fans and the strategy we want to see our front office pursue.

 

I have in other threads defended the strength of the Lynch/Poz/Trent draft, even though they haven't turned into our three cornerstone Pro Bowlers. I think they were pretty good draft day decisions, even though the wisdom of trading up can usually be questioned and value isn't usually there.

 

But the Jets got Revis/Harris with their picks after, both after we got Lynch/Poz respectively. You can nit pick every draft this way, and that isn't productive. It is different than Whitner/Ngata or Maybin/Orakpo where there was a lot of agreement who the best player was, and we didn't pick him. But still it is illustrative of the fact that we need three things going our way on draft day:

 

1) Buddy making smart talent assessments on how good each football player is.

2) Us taking the best football player. We took Lynch because RB was a need. The needs move like a revolving door from year to year (even when we don't pick those needs like our LT/QB need draft last year). Getting great players matters most.

3) Some luck. Both in determining the best player, and then on that player developing and staying healthy. Scouting isn't an exact science. Some teams do it better than others, and on the aggregate reap the rewards, but each draft is full of uncertainty no matter what.

 

Those things at the moment guide the only semi-informed fan that I am towards the unpopular pick of AJ Green. I don't see Dareus or Peterson or Bowers as as talented a football player right now. I'm sure Nix is working on a lot of different information than we are, but I hope the methodology of his decision is the same.

 

BPA isn't just the highest guy on Kiper's board or the best college performer. It is the best likely expectation of what the player will do over five or more years, and that takes some complex assessment of talents and a lot of projection. And while Harris has proven to be the more successful player, I think that Poz was the reasonable draft day BPA, and I'm okay with the draft choice because of that.

 

 

 

admit it

 

 

you are an enabler

 

futilely trying to justify and support a decade of inept talent evaluation

 

you cite 2 examples where the Bills butchered 2 picks and players that were available when they selected became impact play makers- while we picked less than average producers

 

NFL talent evaluators get paid to identify which colege lplayers will become good pros

 

it is not as much of crap shoot as posters would like to believe

 

maybe if the Bills hired some NFL caliber talent professionals - their draft would not be so much of a grope in the dark

 

 

 

 

 

[Nanker]

Nice post K-9. I agree completely.

[Rico]

Should the Bills franchise Poz?

:lol:

[VADC Bills]

I have to laugh at the gist of this thread. Was he drafted too high given his productivity? Perhaps. Would he start for practically every team in the NFL? Yes. People need to get over their small resentments regarding the Marv years. It's so over. He's a pretty solid player, and the Bills don't have enough of them.

 

Jeez.

People get on Whitner because Marv drafted him at #8. The Poz draft giving up a pick to move up 9 spots was worse because we lost 2 high picks for.....Poz.

Poz is only productive if your a live in a stat book. He probably made more tackles than any LB in the pro bowl. The fact of the matter is he is soft, can't cover , can't shed tackles, and is very, very weak at the point of impact in other words he doesn't hit and gets run over by smaller running backs, makes most tackles down field. Think Brian Bosworth trying to tackle Bo Jackson and you have Poz.

Ever since he has been on the team our defense has been weak. Whitner is average but our secondary has had flashes of great play with him in there. Harris is a going to be a franchise player on a great defense. I can't think of one team in the NFL that would franchise Poz if the situation warranted it. I think Nix hit the nail on the head when he said we need mlb's, we need to get bigger. A note to Poz fans, he is not saying get a stud to play next to Poz to cover his weakness', he is saying to replace Poz and find another. Poz is just to small to be effective. Personally I send Poz and Whitner walking unless they are willing to accept a reduced role and pay. They wouldn't be missed.

Edited February 6, 2011 by VADC Bills

[Dawgg]

You have no idea how much I wish I could agree with you about PP. I loved the pick 4 yours ago and I was really hoping he'd develop into a solid LB.

 

But I've seen enough of his bad angles and inability to shed blocks over the last four seasons to convince me he's pedestrian at best. Every time he made the occasional big play I'd think, "OK. He's finally getting it." But that one nice play is too often overshadowed by the nine bad plays he makes.

 

Many make the argument that if we had a Phat Pat in the middle to occupy two OLmen then our LBs would be free to make every play. But that's only true to a point. An LB, especially an MLB, must be able to shed blocks and make plays. Far too often PP can't do that. His bad pursuit angles make it too easy for him to get swallowed up. Hell, he takes himself out of so many plays by over-pursuing that sometimes blockers don't even HAVE to get in his way.

 

I'm the last guy to run a player out of town. We need to be patient with these kids and give 'em a few seasons before pronouncing them good or not. Some players, like Poz, make it more difficult to close the book on. He's a great kid by all accounts. And he's got that leadership quality that every team needs.

 

But if you don't make enough plays then you can't play. IMHO he's a back-up at best in the NFL. That said, I hope he proves me wrong with his next team. I wish him the best.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Poz flat out cannot play middle linebacker in the NFL. He's pretty bad.

 

It's one thing to make the pick. It's quite another to give up a high 3rd to move up 9 spots when both Poz and David Harris were on the board. Good teams have a board, understand the value of picks and make their trade decisions accordingly. Inept teams overpay in draft day trades and pigeon-hole themselves into drafting a single player. They did it the year before with McCargo and they did it yet again for Poz. There were a ton of reasons to avoid making that trade.

 

1) David Harris was a better prospect than Poz coming out of college. It's up to the paid talent evaluators to make this assessment.

 

2) Solid defensive players were available. David Harris, Justin Durant, and Lamaar Woodley were on the board, rendering a high priced trade all the more questionable.

 

3) The Bills let London Fletcher walk. In making that explicit decision, Marv and his croneys were claiming that Poz would be a better long-term solution than Fletcher at the all-important MLB position. They were dead wrong.

 

As for Dave McBride's questioning of the original post's intent, I think it's perfectly legitimate to evaluate how this draft turned out 4 years later. It was bad. Very bad. And we can thank Marv Levy and Tom Modrak for that. Good thing they're gone... oh wait... Modrak still manages the draft board.

[Hplarrm]

If by "franchise" you mean "find his replacement" then yes, we should definitely franchise Poz. One of the many disastrous moves made by Marv which set this franchise back 4 years.

The thing I find most odd about the Marv set us back by 4 years is that even if one agrees that Marv was a disaster, what could possibly make folks think that even if he was gone that Mr. Ralph somehow would have made the right moves except for that dastardly Marv?

 

Do you really think that the Bills would even be in the playoffs if they had chosen Mr. X and not Marv as GM with the surrounding context being:

 

1. Mr. Ralph actually having been such a bad football guy that he proved to be so smart he hired this idiot Marv as GM? It simply makes no sense to me that anyone could identify Marv as the primary problem and simply not instead identify the man who picked Marv as the actual primary problem.

 

2. It also seem nonsensical to me to blame Marv for the current Bills state when he was not even here for the majority of our decade+ failure to make the playoffs. Even if one chooses to blame Marv for not only his two years of actions when he was GM, and then also blame him as the primary cause for all that happened after he left (a fairly silly concept since it seems odd at best to let everyone who actually made poor decisions post Marv off the hook.

 

3. Speaking of this, do you see any relevance at all to the fact that Mr. Ralph chose to hire Marv as GM after he had been a part of toxic relationships which saw bad endings with his three previous GMS, Polian, Butler, and TD.

 

4. Who would have been your specific candidate that Mr. Ralph should have hired as GM instead of Marv?

 

It is my strong sense that past SB winning types like Cowher and Shanahan were candidates for Nix's job but likely did not seriously consider taking it due to Mr. Ralph's clear record of mismanaging relationships with is past GM employees.

 

I simply see no evidence that there was any candidate forthe GM job after Mr. Ralph fired TD, developed a toxic relationship with Butler such that he left us high and dry and fired Bill Polian (who then went on to Indy and built an SB winner.

 

I am not saying Marv was good or that he was even adequate.

 

I am saying however, that assigning blame to Marv and ignoring who is primarily responsible for the majority of our dismal record Marv was a part of just misses the point as to the real problem here.

 

Was Marv even remotely adequate in the decisions he made while GM.

 

No, his decisions were bad.

 

Is Marv the primary blame for our problems?

 

No to this also.

 

Don't you see that a focus on Marv simply misses the point as to who bears the primary responsibility for our dismal record as Marv was not even hear when the initial majority of these failures happened. Further, to attempt to lay blame on him for everything which happened after his short reign simply lets the guy who hired him and then was unable to hire a GM to replace him after he left has to bear the lionshare of the blame.

[Mr_Blizzard]

I have to laugh at the gist of this thread. Was he drafted too high given his productivity? Perhaps. Would he start for practically every team in the NFL? Yes. People need to get over their small resentments regarding the Marv years. It's so over. He's a pretty solid player, and the Bills don't have enough of them.

 

Jeez.

 

I agree with your comments. Is Poz a great player? No. Is he a solid player? Yes. If we had fielded a decent line in 2010, Poz would have looked better too.

[DanInUticaTampa]

"SHould the Bills franchise Poz"?

 

There is not one single player on the Bills that should be considered fo that Tag? You're telling the world that you think Poz is equal to or greater than the top five LBs in the game? Seriously, is that what you believe? Think that over.

 

wow.....just wow. you can't tell by what he wrote that it was sarcasm?

[Nanker]

I think Ralph has a fondness for Penn State and the FO thinks PS stars can sell tickets at OBD because there's a great PS following in Western NY.

[bills44]

I have to laugh at the gist of this thread. Was he drafted too high given his productivity? Perhaps. Would he start for practically every team in the NFL? Yes. People need to get over their small resentments regarding the Marv years. It's so over. He's a pretty solid player, and the Bills don't have enough of them.

 

Jeez.

 

so, should the Bills franchise him, or not?

[John from Riverside]

You know what it means most to me?

 

This is why you have to draft well and keep your own players......no way we give up first round picks for David Harris......what we need to be doing is drafting OUR David Harris and then retain him.

 

This is why you biuld through the draft because you dont know whats gonna happen in free agency.

[CSBill]

I would put the franchise tag on Poz, if you don't and he leaves, it's another huge need position. Is he among the best in the league? No. Is he serviceable? Yes. For a team with so many needs, there is no sense in creating another one.

 

And by the way, Harris was a pipe dream anyways; if he ever did become a free agent, there would be a long line of teams vying for his services.