How long before Buddy gets fired?

[transient]

You say that like Nix is a sure fire genius. Maybe you can start by telling us 1 positive thing that has gone on a OBD since he's gotten there. Besides awful personnel, has the attitude changed? Has the line play/QB/pass rush changed? Didn't think so.

 

I'm sorry RJ, but your reply gets a "zero..point...zero"

 

He's ignored knee jerk pessimistic reactions by fans and committed to building a team the right way, despite the fact that you feel it should have happened the minute he walked through the door.

 

I disagree. Some Bills fans are so desperate that they will always anoint the "next guy" the savior. How many posts did you read about "Nix's great Drafts" or quoting Reuters articles taken from Wiki to find quotes that don't exist? Who cares that he was never given a shot! He got one with the Bills and it's good enough until his 4 years are up or this plan goes up in flames (whichever come first).

 

So yes, the need to look at Nix as if he walks on water wreaks of desperation and the lack of scrutiny by the Pollyannas is completely dishonest. Hell, you've even adopted his tag-line about how long it takes to rebuild. Like this plan is 100% going to work 5 years from now! Ask the Falcons, Jets, GB and the Dolphins how long it takes. It doesn't take a great O line or a great QB, it takes a vision and ignoring what has plagued this team for the last 10 years (OL,QB,Pass Rush) and drafting a bunch of backups and small level college players sucks.

 

And some are so pissed at the new guy's predecessors that they can't open their eyes to who they're mad at and give him a chance. Firing him after three games ensures that this misery will be never ending.

Edited September 27, 2010 by transient

[Trader]

If you are the 1st year GM of a bad team, what do you do? Do you evaluate the talent on the team with more holes than swiss cheese and try to patch them quickly, more like Levy did as GM? Or do you build your team knowing it will take a few years to develop? Personally, in a weak QB draft year, I would take a can't miss RB with your #1 as a base to build around. It would take a few years to completely build your team, but in the long term it's the best game plan for long term success.

 

I like Nix. I do think he blew the Incognito deal and he did not help the OL enough. I think he is a poor GM but a good personnel man. I do not think that Ralph Wilaon wants a real, "Polian Style" GM.

[Red]

Anyone who isn't skeptical of Nix is desperate and dishonest.

 

The mere fact that Kelsay has reportedly been offered an extension for $24 million should make the biggest homers puke in their mouth a little bit.

 

The biggest indictment of Nix for me was his draft day decisions. Picking small school projects was first. Not drafting an O lineman early on was second. Ignoring the pass rush..passing on Ob's ... meanwhile #2-7 are all sitting on the bench while #1 gets less than 10 touches per game. On a talent depleted team this is unacceptable...well at least to the realists it is.

 

The absolute acceptance of this guy comes from fans who have the blank stare of a circus animal and the denial mentality of a battered wife.

 

Dude, first off- I love the avatar.

 

Second- give me a freakin' break! "Not drafting O lineman early on"???!?!?!? There are so many freakin' holes on this squad, what difference does it make if you start on the defensive line (Troupe and Carrington) or offensive?

 

Both lines need everything you can get. They've been neglected since Pat Williams was allowed to leave.

 

And what makes you think that Mr. Boner himself- Tom Modrak- in all of his stupidity would succeed on picks 2-7, anyways?

 

This past decade, with the exception of the 2009 draft (Nix's 1st year, coincidentally), where has Modrak done good anywhere consistently?

 

Nix is taking over a mess. It takes time to build a franchise, and we are all tired. Tired of being lied to by management. Tired of getting our hopes up every season only to have them crushed. Tired of being sold a bill of goods from the Bills marketing department, only to find that we bought a vanilla frosted turd every year.

 

Trust me, I am with you on the frustration.

 

But I truly believe that Nix, Whaley, and Gailey have us moving in the right direction. This one feels different.

[bkc]

Wow so you gave old Buddy three weeks . I hope he gets a nice long run. Finally a honest to god life long foot guy running the show. Everything he has done is in the best interest in building a long term winner.

The fact that there was not a quaterback available at 9 was not his fault. The fact that there was very little free agent movemnet due to the change in the collective bargining agreement is not his fault. What he did do was not draft for need, like taking guys like mccargo, maybin ect. He also didn't spend big money on useless free agents like dockery.

What he did was bring in as many short fixes as possible to fill massive holes left by Dickie j and his team. The sked is brutal playing probably 10 games against teams that will make the playoffs. Plus starting with green bay, jets , balt, miami and new england as 5 of the first 6 doesn't help. This is a complete rebuild . My guess next year 7-9 wins should be in order and the year after that will start a nice run of playoff or near playoff seasons.

Have faith things will get better we are on the right track !

[cossack]

Overall, I feel he is overmatched for the job.

Overmatched for the job? I disagree. Today, the day after another loss, Buddy made me smile. He had the balls to do what no one in the Jauron- Levy/Brandon regimes ever could: he cut his losses, and he did it quickly.

 

Nix and Gailey got fooled by Trent, but instead of sticking with it they admitted their mistake. He looks great in practice most of the time with his own teammates applying pressure, but in live action he just freezes over. Why carry this guy on the team even as a backup when a career backup just proved in one game that Trent WAS a big part of the problem. Sure, the O-line is not perfect, but it's better than last year. Yesterday's game made me wonder: What could we do with a just above average QB???

 

Let's look forward, let's ride Fitz for a bit and let's put Brohm in there before the draft and see what he can do. Nix is NOT the problem. Right now he's a HUGE part of the solution.

Edited September 27, 2010 by cossack

[Gabe Northern]

Its way to soon to bash Buddy. Incognito wanted out of Buffalo, Green was a safety net for LT incase Bell had not recovered fron his injury. The RB issue depend on a possible trade of Lynch

 

You really can't use Incognito wanting out of Buffalo as an excuse. We had the power to tender him for about $1 million. Either he played here, was signed away for draft pick compensation, or sat out. And, FYI, few people want to be in Buffalo. Jim Kelly sure as he'll didn't. But put a winning program in place and see how quickly that changes.

[Nuncha]

Schobel kept his word and retired.

How many times must this be pointed out to you?

Nix did nothing wrong. Schobel wanted the Bills to make the decision for him, and they did.

 

As for Icognito, he was a Guard. The Bills have plenty of Guards. How many more do you want?

 

You are correct, Incognito is a guard.. However, they could have kept him at guard, moved Andy Levitre to LT (which he played some last season and did a good job), and put Bell at RT.

 

Letting Incognito go wasn't very smart.

 

You are correct, Incognito is a guard.. However, they could have kept him at guard, moved Andy Levitre to LT (which he played some last season and did a good job), and put Bell at RT.

 

Letting Incognito go wasn't very smart...especially with Wood coming off a severe leg injury. Thankfully he came back quickly...if not how much worse "wood" the line be?

Edited September 28, 2010 by Azucho98

[mousetrap08]

Nix has made a series of terrible personnel moves. Terrible draft with which we are getting almost no production out of, wasting first round pick on RB , not keeping incognito, resigning Kelsay, mediocre free agent moves such as cornell at RT. He has done nothing to upgrade the talent on the team. I do think Gailey is a good HC, but we have an inexperienced DC. Overall, I feel he is overmatched for the job.

N ! F ! L ! not for long

Edited September 28, 2010 by shadowcat10

[BillsVet]

There is a difference between being a good scout and a good administrator. Being the former does not necessarily translate into being the latter.

 

Right now the Bills are 0-3, and it'll be interesting as things get worse how many fans begin questioning the direction of this franchise. People act as though the Bills will be in Buffalo forever and Nix has years to develop a winner. Besides, Nix is 70 and there aren't many GM's at that age for a reason: it's a demanding job that tests younger men. I think Nix will do a Levy and work 2 years before handing it off to Whaley if the Bills haven't been sold.

[C.Biscuit97]

There is a difference between being a good scout and a good administrator. Being the former does not necessarily translate into being the latter.

 

Right now the Bills are 0-3, and it'll be interesting as things get worse how many fans begin questioning the direction of this franchise. People act as though the Bills will be in Buffalo forever and Nix has years to develop a winner. Besides, Nix is 70 and there aren't many GM's at that age for a reason: it's a demanding job that tests younger men. I think Nix will do a Levy and work 2 years before handing it off to Whaley if the Bills haven't been sold.

 

 

It's been three flucking games!!! Jesus, you really don't have anything better to do than be miserable about the Bills every second of the day?

[BillsVet]

It's been three flucking games!!! Jesus, you really don't have anything better to do than be miserable about the Bills every second of the day?

 

Three games, 0-3, outscored by 40 points, 31st in yards gained, t-31st in points allowed, 30th in opponents 3rd down conversions, on the verge of re-signing Chris Kelsay, cut the anointed starting QB of 8 days ago, t-30th INT's. What more could I want?

[bigc14120]

Nix has made a series of terrible personnel moves. Terrible draft with which we are getting almost no production out of, wasting first round pick on RB , not keeping incognito, resigning Kelsay, mediocre free agent moves such as cornell at RT. He has done nothing to upgrade the talent on the team. I do think Gailey is a good HC, but we have an inexperienced DC. Overall, I feel he is overmatched for the job.

There are some bothersome signs. Although CJ SPiller is the real deal...and better than either of the other two RB's, I am bothered that Troup and Carrington are not playing. Carrington is not even active. Taht smells like a dud 3rd rounder to me. Another one like Maybin. So, Buddy isn't tearing up the turf here. Getting rid of Edwards is TARDY at the least.

[billsfan714]

Anybody considering giving Kelsay 24 million should not be an NFL GM. Thats about pro-bowl money for a guy who only gets to a probowl if hes got tickets.

[thewildrabbit]

Three games, 0-3, outscored by 40 points, 31st in yards gained, t-31st in points allowed, 30th in opponents 3rd down conversions, on the verge of re-signing Chris Kelsay, cut the anointed starting QB of 8 days ago, t-30th INT's. What more could I want?

What most of the homers don't get is that 2 of the 3 games play could have been won this season if not for some rather stupid moves and lack of moves by the GM / HC already. Nobody has yet defended Nix's bringing in Cornell Green because they know he scrood the pooch and that guy is a complete waste of a roster spot at 3 mil per.

 

C'mon guys, honestly it doesn't make you nervous at all that he wants to resign Kelsay and he paid 3 mill to Green? This is the guy who will be selected the next franchise QB.

 

 

Nix could have given up a 3rd rounder to the Saints for experienced pro bowler Jammal Brown. The not resigning Incognito was a stupid move also, move Wood to center and the interior of the line is drastically improved and the QB now has a pocket to step up into when the Bills play teams with really good defenses

[Thurman#1]

Nix has made a series of terrible personnel moves. Terrible draft with which we are getting almost no production out of, wasting first round pick on RB , not keeping incognito, resigning Kelsay, mediocre free agent moves such as cornell at RT. He has done nothing to upgrade the talent on the team. I do think Gailey is a good HC, but we have an inexperienced DC. Overall, I feel he is overmatched for the job.

 

 

 

I have to agree. He should absolutely be fired ... in 2013 if the Bills aren't a good team.

 

Now, of course, it would be criminally mistaken to fire a GM after three games. Just wouldn't make sense. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you mean if he doesn't do a good job over time.

 

He would have been better depth than what we have now. Good organizations don't let talented individuals leave without any compensation.

 

 

The rumor is that Incognito absolutely hated it here and made that very plain. And if that's true, letting him go was extremely understandable. Last thing you need on a rebuilding team is a malcontent, and Incognito had it in him to be one if he wanted.

[Thurman#1]

There is a difference between being a good scout and a good administrator. Being the former does not necessarily translate into being the latter.

 

Right now the Bills are 0-3, and it'll be interesting as things get worse how many fans begin questioning the direction of this franchise. People act as though the Bills will be in Buffalo forever and Nix has years to develop a winner. Besides, Nix is 70 and there aren't many GM's at that age for a reason: it's a demanding job that tests younger men. I think Nix will do a Levy and work 2 years before handing it off to Whaley if the Bills haven't been sold.

 

 

The reason people think Nix has years to develop a winner is because Nix has years to develop a winner. You generally need three years to rebuild. That's historically how long it takes. There are exceptions, but as a rule that's how long it takes. Jauron got four years, despite the fact that his first three years weren't exactly terrific. Why? Ralph believes that it takes at least three years. He knows for sure that changing regimes every year or two is a guaranteed path to mediocrity or outright awfulness.

 

Polian's first year in Buffalo was 4 - 12. His second year was 7 - 8. Judging people too early in a rebuild is a mistake.

 

Three games, 0-3, outscored by 40 points, 31st in yards gained, t-31st in points allowed, 30th in opponents 3rd down conversions, on the verge of re-signing Chris Kelsay, cut the anointed starting QB of 8 days ago, t-30th INT's. What more could I want?

 

 

You could want the understanding that rebuilds take years, not weeks.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

Finally a honest to god life long foot guy running the show.

 

 

A foot guy?

 

 

The fact that there was not a quaterback available at 9 was not his fault.

 

 

 

Actually the fact that there was not a quarterback available at 9 is, um, not a fact, it's an opinion. I like the way Nix is going so far, but if Clausen turns out to be a franchise QB, not picking him will be a bad move to rank with any of the all-time bad moves this franchise has ever made.

 

Like it or not, nobody yet knows how Clausen will do and no matter how many other teams passed on him, if the Bills passed on a winner in the second round at a time of screaming desperation for a QB, it will have been a genuinely horrible mistake.

[TheChimp]

Anyone who isn't skeptical of Nix is desperate and dishonest.

 

The mere fact that Kelsay has reportedly been offered an extension for $24 million should make the biggest homers puke in their mouth a little bit.

 

The biggest indictment of Nix for me was his draft day decisions. Picking small school projects was first. Not drafting an O lineman early on was second. Ignoring the pass rush..passing on Ob's ... meanwhile #2-7 are all sitting on the bench while #1 gets less than 10 touches per game. On a talent depleted team this is unacceptable...well at least to the realists it is.

 

The absolute acceptance of this guy comes from fans who have the blank stare of a circus animal and the denial mentality of a battered wife.

I gotta say, this is extremely difficult to disagree with. Re-signing Chris Kelsay as a LB is the !@#$ing most retarded idea this front office could ever have, and it's still jaw-droppingly shocking to me that it's being seriously considered at OBD. If he gets re-signed, I WILL puke in my mouth and immediately think of Buddy Nix as the dumbest GM in pro sports.

[bkc]

A foot guy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually the fact that there was not a quarterback available at 9 is, um, not a fact, it's an opinion. I like the way Nix is going so far, but if Clausen turns out to be a franchise QB, not picking him will be a bad move to rank with any of the all-time bad moves this franchise has ever made.

 

Like it or not, nobody yet knows how Clausen will do and no matter how many other teams passed on him, if the Bills passed on a winner in the second round at a time of screaming desperation for a QB, it will have been a genuinely horrible mistake.

 

If Buddy ws wrong about Clausen he will have good company. THere is a major lack of quater back talent in the league right now and 31 teams passed on him , most twice.

 

A foot guy?

 

 

football , typo

 

 

 

Actually the fact that there was not a quarterback available at 9 is, um, not a fact, it's an opinion. I like the way Nix is going so far, but if Clausen turns out to be a franchise QB, not picking him will be a bad move to rank with any of the all-time bad moves this franchise has ever made.

 

Like it or not, nobody yet knows how Clausen will do and no matter how many other teams passed on him, if the Bills passed on a winner in the second round at a time of screaming desperation for a QB, it will have been a genuinely horrible mistake.

[tennesseeboy]

Nothing says a franchise is serious about winning than firing the GM and coaches after 1/4th of a season. Qualified candidates will be beating a path to One Bills Drive to be part of this winner.

 

PTR

I agree. As I have said all along, he gives us nine wins or goes at the end of the season. He seems to be making a lot of progress toward a negative decision at the end of the season. Would we keep him because "no one else wants to come here?" If so...then it would be wise to move the team. I don't believe that no one else wants to come here as some of the whiners and groaners (we suck but its okay because maybe five years from now we'll be good) crowd maintain. I think Nix either pulls his head out of his butt and gets moving on improving the team or we get someone else after the season to get serious about the job.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

What difference would Incognito have made? In your mind, do you have him starting in front of Wood or Levitre?

A case might be made for Incognito starting at RG and moving Wood to his natural C position with Hartengarten as a backup for depth.

[AJ1]

What difference would Incognito have made? In your mind, do you have him starting in front of Wood or Levitre?

 

Don't confuse him with facts, he's confused enough.

[freester]

Sorry, worst post of the day. If anything, the past two days only demonstrated that we should have had Nix years ago.

Do you still love Buddy after the absurd extension of Kelsay? This action is indefensible.

[Haven Moses]

I think Ralph is biding time. When the estate tax kicks in next year, I would suspect that he would sell of a minority position in the team to the infamous Jim Kelly group. Then we will see if Ralph lets that group take over football decisions.

[thewildrabbit]

I gotta say I'm extremely disappointed in what Nix / Gailey have done so far...its almost as if Jauron didn't leave and he is still making lame ass decisions. The only thing they got right so far has been Spiller, not an area of need and a luxury pick. Its pretty tough to fail on drafting a player with the 9th overall pick...then again who did the Bills select last year with their #1?

 

Should the Bills continue on this path of doom I certainly don't trust them to make a selection of a franchise 50 mill QB at this point

 

What bothers me more is the fact that most Bills fans are in some sort of denial about the whole thing, oh yea give them time...time to F up the entire team. Sorry I'm not buying into this rebuilding crap, I've seen their idea of quality player worth 45 mill, and a RT worth 3 mill a year

[GR8PRKN]

I gotta say I'm extremely disappointed in what Nix / Gailey have done so far...its almost as if Jauron didn't leave and he is still making lame ass decisions. The only thing they got right so far has been Spiller, not an area of need and a luxury pick. Its pretty tough to fail on drafting a player with the 9th overall pick...then again who did the Bills select last year with their #1?

 

Should the Bills continue on this path of doom I certainly don't trust them to make a selection of a franchise 50 mill QB at this point

 

What bothers me more is the fact that most Bills fans are in some sort of denial about the whole thing, oh yea give them time...time to F up the entire team. Sorry I'm not buying into this rebuilding crap, I've seen their idea of quality player worth 45 mill, and a RT worth 3 mill a year

 

 

I was thinking about this last night after reading about the union meeting. I bet the new CBA prevents 50million dollar wiffs.. As we will have a rookie salary cap in place that will be for a lot less money andshorter contract time. Do you think the bills were waiting for this knowing that the team was going to struggle? I'm not making the assumtion its just a though an knowing the Qb class is better this year than last.... Just a hunch.

[clearwater cadet]

I can't believe most people miss point. The goal is not to go 9-7 and win the wild card and get knocked out in the first round. The goal and only goal is to win the super bowl. Second place sucks, I know I've been there 4 times and at the end of the day 2 it's the same as 32, sucks. Why the hell would Buddy go out and sign about bunch of old stop-gap vets who are going to be here for 1 two 2 years and then be washed up. He didn't sign any free agents because who was going to sign? Most of the 4-5 year FA who any good were restricted, and would of needed to give up a 1st and 3rd to sign them. The truth is very simple, this season is all about open tryouts for 20 weeks. Everyone knows the Bills are not going to win the superbowl. for example, I sure about Trent Edwards and what the problem with him was. I really didn't know if it was Jauron, the line, the injuries, him etc., but after seeing fitz play, I know Trent didn't have any future with the team, and it best that he's moving on. I think the front office and coachs are taking that approach with everyone. I think this year is the evaluation year, and next year starts the rebuilding. If your looking for a team who sign a bunch of old stop gap vets, mixed with the bunch of unproven talent who wins 65% of there games, make the playoff and get knocked out in the usually the first and sometimes the second round, become a Sabres fan.

[Dr. K]

First year GM. I build from the trenches back. My first order of business is to assess talent. The need for two quality tackles jumps out. If I am going to go to a 3-4 I also assess talent. I try to find leaders who will create a positive attitude on offense and defense. Perhaps I sign Flozell Adams (winner) to play for a year or two instead of Cornell Green (loser). I might want to try and keep a nasty bruising lineman on my team (Incardona). I might gp after a linebacker free agent like Karlos Dansby. Dansby would be tghe basis of the defensive rebuild. Expensive but you want to build a program. I would have drafted Bualaga to anchor the offensive line. I would hve relied on Lynch and Jackson as starting running backs (actually Lynch and Jackson ARE the starting running backs.) I would have let TO go (I spent too much in getting Dansby to even think I'm going to sign him) and hope Parrish and Stevie step up. If I'm going 3-4 I draft linebackers and cut Maybin and Kelsay. I try to get a legitimate nose tackle.

 

These things were doable...they didn't get done.

 

You don't sit on your ass and waste a year. If you are going to rebuild, do it from day one.

 

 

Looks like Tennesseeboy is available to step in and right the team in a single season. He knows all the right moves and will get them done. But that idiot Wilson hired Nix when T-boy was available every day, right under his nose here on TBD. What a fatal mistake.

[thewildrabbit]

I can't believe most people miss point. The goal is not to go 9-7 and win the wild card and get knocked out in the first round. The goal and only goal is to win the super bowl. Second place sucks, I know I've been there 4 times and at the end of the day 2 it's the same as 32, sucks. Why the hell would Buddy go out and sign about bunch of old stop-gap vets who are going to be here for 1 two 2 years and then be washed up. He didn't sign any free agents because who was going to sign? Most of the 4-5 year FA who any good were restricted, and would of needed to give up a 1st and 3rd to sign them. The truth is very simple, this season is all about open tryouts for 20 weeks. Everyone knows the Bills are not going to win the superbowl. for example, I sure about Trent Edwards and what the problem with him was. I really didn't know if it was Jauron, the line, the injuries, him etc., but after seeing fitz play, I know Trent didn't have any future with the team, and it best that he's moving on. I think the front office and coachs are taking that approach with everyone. I think this year is the evaluation year, and next year starts the rebuilding. If your looking for a team who sign a bunch of old stop gap vets, mixed with the bunch of unproven talent who wins 65% of there games, make the playoff and get knocked out in the usually the first and sometimes the second round, become a Sabres fan.

 

WTF, now the Bills are not even rebuilding this year? This year is for evaluations? C'mon get a freaking grip it doesn't take a year to evaluate talent, its takes a few hours of film study. Your just making lame excuses as to why the Bills completely screwed up and wasted this year, another fan in denial.

 

 

The Redskins were is almost the exact same situation as the Buffalo Bills, they needed a QB, fix the O line and switch to a 3-4. The Skins hired experienced veteran NFL coaches on both offense and defense. Drafted a LT with the first pick, traded for RT all pro Jamaal Brown for a 3rd round pick and traded for Donovan McNabb. Now you tell me, which team is more advanced towards reaching the playoffs / SB. The Skins might be a year away, the Bills are 4-5 or more years away if they need the first year to simply evaluate. Let me tell you, counting on more then two years is stretching things considering Ralph Wilson's age.

 

What did the Bills do, drafted a luxury pick RB in an area where they already had one PB RB and the other is actually better. So now they have a really good 3rd down back, big woop. They signed Cornell Green to a 3 mill a year contract, that was the best RT FA they could find?They just re-sign an older washed up DE to a 45 mil contract to play OLB. I can only think that they are puppets and someone else is pulling the strings, they can't have spent their entire lives in this business to suck this bad at what they do.

[oak tree 12]

Nix has made a series of terrible personnel moves. Terrible draft with which we are getting almost no production out of, wasting first round pick on RB , not keeping incognito, resigning Kelsay, mediocre free agent moves such as cornell at RT. He has done nothing to upgrade the talent on the team. I do think Gailey is a good HC, but we have an inexperienced DC. Overall, I feel he is overmatched for the job.

 

what an assinine clueless post.

 

gruden (i know he does not know as much about football as you) called spiller the best player in the draft.

 

incognito who has mental issues is not needed because we have 2 young stud guards like mike mayock says "buffalo has the best young guard duo in the NFL"

 

they kept kelsey a seasoned vet and signed him for peanuts until they find a younger player to replace him,great move by Nix.

 

lastly anyone with half a brain knows free agency is not the way you build a good football team and its been proven over and over. want the best example look @ Washington.

 

the only guy overmatched for the job is you because you obviously dont know the game very well.

[May Day 10]

He has got a lot of time.

 

He inherited a pretty terrible mess here. Its going to take a lot. They are at bare bones mode for the most part. Evaluating and slowly putting the athletes they need at each position to fit their system. I would say with or without Nix in there, about 10%-20% of the team will still be on the roster for the 2012 season.

 

Give the man a few years though

[jr1]

At least 3 more years

[mowisc]

Nix ain't going anywhere. He has already out performed our last three GM's combined. I am happy he is here, and hope he continues to get a free hand at running the football operation.

 

These threads are f'ing assinine.