Chan's relationship with Trent

[Buftex]

In my opinion, Marv Levy bears most of the responsibility for the Bills being 0-4 in Super Bowls. His failure to control a team that was clearly more talented is the primary reason they played like ass when it came to the big game.

 

It's no secret that the team ran around Fredonia like a bunch of drunk frat boys. What they lacked in discipline they made up for in raw talent. A bit more discipline and focus and we might have won 3 of the 4.

 

I won't even go into the debacle that Marv Levy the GM was.

 

 

I understand what you are saying, but, Marv was Marv, and he treated his players the same, in the 13-3 regular seasons, and in the playoffs... If he had suddenly become a drill sergeant, I don't think we would be even be talking about 4 Super Bowl wins, or losses, for that matter. I honestly think the reason the Bills lost the last three Super Bowls, they were not the more talented team. In my opinion, you can make a case against Marv and his staff for the first one (the only case where the Bills were the more talented team, but were out-coached), but you will probably never be able to convince me that those Bills teams were more talented than the Redskins of 1991, and certainly not the Cowboys of 1992 and 1993.

 

It seems to be popular to blame Levy for the Super Bowl losses...but don't lose sight of the fact that the Bills very well may not have made it as far as they did, and been as spectacularly successful for that 4 year stretch, had anyone else been their head coach. To me, the most frustrating factor in those losses, was the poorly coached/game planned defense. I don't think any DC did less, with more, than Walt Corey. I suppose you can blame Marv for that.

 

Now, I am in 100% agreement with you, on Marv Levy as GM. To me (and I posted it then) that was the begining of a very dark period for this franchise... they went from being "not so good" in the Tom Donohoe era, to dreadful. I don't blame Marv for that, I blame the owner. The only credit I can give Marv, the GM, is for stepping down. It was very apparent, to me, Marv was smart enough to know that he was in over his head.

[JohnC]

From the linked article:

 

"There was a feeling in past seasons that three or four people were advising Edwards, with the young quarterback trying to satisfy the last coach he heard. That can happen when you have four offensive coordinators in four years, except Edwards is working on his eighth in nine seasons, dating back to his career at Stanford University.

 

"It's almost not fair to judge a guy on that," said a sympathetic Gailey."

 

That's eight offensive coordinators in nine years for Trent. Ouch.

 

Over the past number of years the Bills' organization has been dysfunctional. The coaching staffs and front office staffs have frequently changed. The owner during the Levy/Brandon period created an organizational structure which was decentralized. Because of the owner's wariness resulting from the Donahoe strongman approach the owner didn't trust that style of structure. That was a disasterous decision. The Levy consensus approach only resulted in bad decisions and little accountability.

 

With Nix as a more conventional GM one gets the sense that there is a normal order within the organization. He is in charge and he is the one doing the delegating. The short term situation might be rocky but Nix is establishing a direction for this franchise that hopefully will prove successful in the long run. The shame of the present situation is that the owner wasted three years of rebuilding with the Levy/Brandon era. If a GM such as Nix would have been hired after Donahoe this franchise would be much more advanced.

[ChasBB]

Now that is a fine example of journalism. I knew that Edwards had a different offensive coordinator every year in Buffalo, but I didn't realize that nearly happened to him during his college career, too ...

 

"That can happen when you have four offensive coordinators in four years, except Edwards is working on his eighth in nine seasons, dating back to his career at Stanford University."

 

Wow, 8 guys coaching him in 9 years -- virtually no continuity his entire post high school career -- that's got to be a very tough thing to deal with.

 

Edit: I missed your post San Jose or else I would have just said "+1".

Edited August 26, 2010 by ChasBB

[Kelly the Dog]

I understand what you are saying, but, Marv was Marv, and he treated his players the same, in the 13-3 regular seasons, and in the playoffs... If he had suddenly become a drill sergeant, I don't think we would be even be talking about 4 Super Bowl wins, or losses, for that matter. I honestly think the reason the Bills lost the last three Super Bowls, they were not the more talented team. In my opinion, you can make a case against Marv and his staff for the first one (the only case where the Bills were the more talented team, but were out-coached), but you will probably never be able to convince me that those Bills teams were more talented than the Redskins of 1991, and certainly not the Cowboys of 1992 and 1993.

 

It seems to be popular to blame Levy for the Super Bowl losses...but don't lose sight of the fact that the Bills very well may not have made it as far as they did, and been as spectacularly successful for that 4 year stretch, had anyone else been their head coach. To me, the most frustrating factor in those losses, was the poorly coached/game planned defense. I don't think any DC did less, with more, than Walt Corey. I suppose you can blame Marv for that.

 

Now, I am in 100% agreement with you, on Marv Levy as GM. To me (and I posted it then) that was the begining of a very dark period for this franchise... they went from being "not so good" in the Tom Donohoe era, to dreadful. I don't blame Marv for that, I blame the owner. The only credit I can give Marv, the GM, is for stepping down. It was very apparent, to me, Marv was smart enough to know that he was in over his head.

Great post, Buftex. I agree with almost all of that. It's impossible to know if, say, the Bills out partying together hurt them as individuals and as a team. I would argue it probably helped them as much or more than it hurt them to do that, do it together, and become that close. Football is an extremely violent game. A lot of players need that outlet or they wouldn't be able to deal with it. I don't think the Bills out all week or night hurt them at all in any of the games. The first one is the one we should have won.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog

[ChasBB]

Great post, Buftex. I agree with almost all of that. It's impossible to know if, say, the Bills out partying together hurt them as individuals and as a team. I would argue it probably helped them as much or more than it hurt them to do that, do it together, and become that close. Football is an extremely violent game. A lot of players need that outlet or they wouldn't be able to deal with it. I don't think the Bills out all week or night hurt them at all in any of the games. The first one is the one we should have won.

I'll confess I was in support of Marv having a shot at GM. I honestly thought he could do it, but obviously he wasn't cut out for it. The ridiculous money he threw at a couple of average offensive linemen was a major setback. I give him credit for recognizing the importance of bolstering the offensive line, but the way he went about it didn't work out so well.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The article states that Trent has won the job. Has this been announced?

It hasn't been announced, but I think barring a Trent meltdown in the preseason, it's a foregone conclusion. I think the consensus feeling is that Trent will start the season and if he stumbles or gets injured, they'll make a change at that time.

 

But you're right, no announcement yet.

 

He was a coordinator of the Jags when they were really good and got hired by Chicago.

Jauron? Yeah and then he met Marv in Chicago and the rest is history.

 

Stems from Marv insisting that the team that executed the best would win, thereby overlooking the fact that the team lining up across from them also happened to be conference champions. Throwing a wrinkle or two into a gameplan, especially in big games, happened to be a forte of all the coaches we faced those four years, and not a particular strength of Saint Levy.

Yeah, we were outcoached in all four Super Bowls. Inarguable fact.

 

Yeah but, say whatever you want to about the job Levy did but all problems which can be traced to Levy need to be traced beyond him to Mr. Ralph.

 

Any Levy complaints even though they may be accurate are merely a sideshow to stopping the buck where the buck really needs to stop.

 

Wouldn't you agree that:

 

1. The O for a decade playoffless streak well before Marv got here and it is silly to blame him for the debacles of the TD era, totally having a dysfunctional relationship between the owner and the GM, and a series of the owner exercising his financial right to meddle even if he is demonstrably bad at making football judgments (going back to making a handshake deal with Jimbo that was simply wrong and only he could make.

2. Ralph deserves plaudits for keeping the team here, but right along with this comes a bunch of horrendous W/Ls that happened to HIS team and these facts should be considered in context (he kept the team here) but it would be stupid to ignore reality by trying to blame this debacle on Marv.

3. Who is responsible for hiring Marv.

 

Its hard for me to see how anyone can claim this stems from Marv when pretty clearly it started before Marv was hired, continued after his short caretaker run, and if Marv is so bad then it says volumes about the guy who hired him (actually out of desperation as Mr. Ralph had so badly messed up the TD years.

Well, Transient's quote (which you excerpted) was about Marv's tenure as coach. Your reply seems like it's mostly addressing Marv's tenure as GM.

 

Also it can be true that Marv was an outstanding coach 99% of the time, but didn't coach well in the Super Bowls.

Edited August 26, 2010 by San Jose Bills Fan

[BuffaloBill]

You make adjustments in pee-wee football and Dickie J along with his band of blands were not? All I can say is wow.

 

 

Whitner's quote explained why 3+ years of Dick Jauron were, well 3+ too many.

[jwolf02]

From the linked article:

 

"There was a feeling in past seasons that three or four people were advising Edwards, with the young quarterback trying to satisfy the last coach he heard. That can happen when you have four offensive coordinators in four years, except Edwards is working on his eighth in nine seasons, dating back to his career at Stanford University.

 

"It's almost not fair to judge a guy on that," said a sympathetic Gailey."

 

That's eight offensive coordinators in nine years for Trent. Ouch.

 

While that does suck for Trent, I never really understood this argument when talking about the performance of a QB this coming season (not that you were trying to make that argument). People always seem to use that excuse for guys as if the 9th coordinator is suddenly make a difference more than the first 8. This is a new system for him just as much as each of the other 8 systems over the last 9 years. On top of that, unless Chan can work some crazy magic, Edwards will probably be mediocre again this year, get benched, and then be on his 9th coordinator in 10 years somewhere else next year.

 

 

But... I sure as hell hope Chan does turn him, or Brohm, into a legitmate QB.

[bowery4]

I don't get it DJ was a terrible coach and it was already very apparent 3 years ago, keeping ppl who should have started on the bench, "bend but ton't break" f8cking playing to keep it close, undersized defense, poor game day decisions every week.

 

I don't know how many times I said in threads back then that "this loss is on the coaches, the players gave it a lot but the Bills make NO adjustments". Whitner saying it now, I don't mind it so much. I just wish he and us could just forget it all happened (I kind of think Chan wants them to forget it as well).

I am SOOO freaking happy Dick Juice is gone, gone, gone!!!!

 

The team will improve, they are young and buying into Chan's approach. The season starts tough and we may not see it at the beginning but I think 2nd half of it we will see a better team and record.

[Thunderstealer]

The offense needs to be better. Whitner needs to tackle ball carriers better. Another wiff for a touchdown last week.

[Mark Vader]

The offense needs to be better. Whitner needs to tackle ball carriers better. Another wiff for a touchdown last week.

It was'nt a "wiff" on that play. Whitner made the mistake of trying to tackle the RB high instead of low.

 

Unfortunately Whitner has done that before, and still has not learned from that mistake.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

From the linked article:

 

"There was a feeling in past seasons that three or four people were advising Edwards, with the young quarterback trying to satisfy the last coach he heard. That can happen when you have four offensive coordinators in four years, except Edwards is working on his eighth in nine seasons, dating back to his career at Stanford University.

 

"It's almost not fair to judge a guy on that," said a sympathetic Gailey."

 

That's eight offensive coordinators in nine years for Trent. Ouch.

While that does suck for Trent, I never really understood this argument when talking about the performance of a QB this coming season (not that you were trying to make that argument). People always seem to use that excuse for guys as if the 9th coordinator is suddenly make a difference more than the first 8. This is a new system for him just as much as each of the other 8 systems over the last 9 years. On top of that, unless Chan can work some crazy magic, Edwards will probably be mediocre again this year, get benched, and then be on his 9th coordinator in 10 years somewhere else next year.

 

 

But... I sure as hell hope Chan does turn him, or Brohm, into a legitmate QB.

I think the argument is that when there is continuity for a QB within an offensive system and with a coach, it becomes easier for that QB to experience success.

 

The quarterback can build additional layers of competency upon a foundation that's been laid in previous seasons.

 

At some point a quarterback can probably "put it in autopilot" if they've been in a system long enough. Certain tasks become second nature.

 

The stability and the constant repetition would seem to me to be a big advantage. Mastery and understanding is only achieved through repetition.

 

The other reason I excerpted that quote was because while there are a few quarterbacks who've endured instability in their NFL careers (Alex Smith is another one), Trent has had to deal with instability during his college AND his professional career.

 

That's something that hasn't been mentioned very much around here and in fairness to Trent, it's a significant bit of his history and it should be mentioned.

 

It might be spin but you could actually say he's overcome a good deal to have started so many games in the NFL.

 

And I'm not a big Trent believer. But IMO that's a bit of an uphill battle that he's had.

[ConradDobler]

Pretty accurate. I've always thought that people would be amazed when they realize a lot of the behind the scenes aspects of the Jauron regime. Not too much has come out, but between little things (how the weight room was a spa) and the quotes from the players; it is mind boggling that Jauron lasted as long as he did. I'm not sold on the idea that Gailey will bring the Bills to the Superbowl or even the playoffs. But, I think he is underrated as far the league is concerned. And furthermore, I think he might be just what the doctor ordered for the Bills at this specific moment in the franchise's history. Just like the organization, Gailey has underachieved the past couple years. He is looking for redemption just as much as the organization is. And I think that level of humility will go a long way. It will provide the necessary patience the team needs to find prolonged success. I'm not saying I wouldn't have preferred Shanahan or Cowher (in reality I would have preferred L. Frazier as HC and Gailey as OC); but I don't think the other candidates for the job would have come with the humility needed.

 

Either way, great article. And good, professional quotes from Donte. I jumped off of the Edwards bandwagon long ago. But, out of the other 3 mediocre QB's that Gailey tutored (as listed in the article), Edwards is by far the most naturally gifted in terms of QB skills. If the O-line can stay healthy and provide minimal protection, I think he will play better than the fans anticipate. Or at least that is the kool aid I'm drinking.

 

And I would say the AFC East has ONE established QB (Brady). The only thing that Sanchez and Henne have established is that they are the number 1 QBs on their respective teams. Other than that, what have they done?

 

Thrown a LOT of interceptions to the Bills. Long may that flag wave.

Edited August 26, 2010 by ConradDobler

[Hplarrm]

+1,000,000!!! I've said that for years.

 

PTR

Yes definitely Marv deserves a good chunk of the blame for the 0-4 SB record (and right there with it if one wants to be fair and balanced about this he also gets a chunk of credit for the team making it to 4 straight SBs). In general I think that HCs get far more credit than they deserve for the TEAM wracking up Ws and likewise far more blame than they deserve alone for Ls,

 

I have long provided statistical back-up for this perspective that show while there are some idiots like a Rich Kotite who seem to be able to lose badly almost anywhere and an even smaller number of Bill Parcells who can win just anount anywhere that for the most part the coaching record is made up of folks like Belicheat who simply sucked the big one in Cleveburg while being a boy genius (with a healthy does of cheating and dumb luck {he likely would have been forced to ride Bledsoe to a .500 record if not for an uncharacteristic LB hit collapsed his lung and he got to ride the Tom Brady bandwagon even though he like the rest of the league passed on drafting one of the best players ever 5 or mote times. Marv is a perfect example of an HC who stunk up the joint in the KC situation prior to delegating the Bills to an HoF career for him. Likewise clear winning HCs like Vince Lombardi simply sucked as am HC with the Deadskins.

 

The main problem I have is not with accurately nailing Marv for not winning the SB but with the way lambastomg Marv as THE problem lets Mr. Ralph whom if one wants to inaccurately try to name one person as THE problem there is a much stronger case to be made for pointing to Mr. Ralph.

 

As legit as it is to fault Marv for 0-4 one also has to agree that he has little to do with the majority of the 0- for a decade playoff less streak

[RevWarRifleman]

Whitner's comments seem to be in line with what some of the Bills opponents had to say about playing against the Bills, over the last few years. I can't remember who it was, for some reason I think it may have been a Patriot player, who made some very cutting remarks about the Bills after they had kicked the Bills asses. Something like "We always know what they are going to do..."

 

 

I believe that was a Chiefs defensiveback last year after our game w/ them. I don't deny that a Patriot may have said that, too. But I remember the post game quote from him. Can't remember his name, though.

[ganesh]

I believe that was a Chiefs defensiveback last year after our game w/ them. I don't deny that a Patriot may have said that, too. But I remember the post game quote from him. Can't remember his name, though.

 

The worst comment made last year came in the pre-season against the Steelers, where Farrior was quoted as "Maybe they should huddle some" taking a shot at the crappy no-huddle system that was brought in by Jauron without the right personnel for it.

[RevWarRifleman]

I think the argument is that when there is continuity for a QB within an offensive system and with a coach, it becomes easier for that QB to experience success.

 

The quarterback can build additional layers of competency upon a foundation that's been laid in previous seasons.

 

At some point a quarterback can probably "put it in autopilot" if they've been in a system long enough. Certain tasks become second nature.

 

The stability and the constant repetition would seem to me to be a big advantage. Mastery and understanding is only achieved through repetition.

 

The other reason I excerpted that quote was because while there are a few quarterbacks who've endured instability in their NFL careers (Alex Smith is another one), Trent has had to deal with instability during his college AND his professional career.

 

That's something that hasn't been mentioned very much around here and in fairness to Trent, it's a significant bit of his history and it should be mentioned.

 

It might be spin but you could actually say he's overcome a good deal to have started so many games in the NFL.

 

And I'm not a big Trent believer. But IMO that's a bit of an uphill battle that he's had.

 

SJBF, good points, and good insight into the game. Thanks for posting. RWR

[Chandler#81]

Whitner's comments seem to be in line with what some of the Bills opponents had to say about playing against the Bills, over the last few years. I can't remember who it was, for some reason I think it may have been a Patriot player, who made some very cutting remarks about the Bills after they had kicked the Bills asses. Something like "We always know what they are going to do..."

 

 

 

Goddamn! How could that joke of a Jauron tenure been allowed to continue? So unbelievable, it makes me sick.

Yeah it's in the past, but no one other than the coaching staff was booted for that debacle.

[transient]

Yeah but, say whatever you want to about the job Levy did but all problems which can be traced to Levy need to be traced beyond him to Mr. Ralph.

 

Any Levy complaints even though they may be accurate are merely a sideshow to stopping the buck where the buck really needs to stop.

 

Wouldn't you agree that:

 

1. The O for a decade playoffless streak well before Marv got here and it is silly to blame him for the debacles of the TD era, totally having a dysfunctional relationship between the owner and the GM, and a series of the owner exercising his financial right to meddle even if he is demonstrably bad at making football judgments (going back to making a handshake deal with Jimbo that was simply wrong and only he could make.

2. Ralph deserves plaudits for keeping the team here, but right along with this comes a bunch of horrendous W/Ls that happened to HIS team and these facts should be considered in context (he kept the team here) but it would be stupid to ignore reality by trying to blame this debacle on Marv.

3. Who is responsible for hiring Marv.

 

Its hard for me to see how anyone can claim this stems from Marv when pretty clearly it started before Marv was hired, continued after his short caretaker run, and if Marv is so bad then it says volumes about the guy who hired him (actually out of desperation as Mr. Ralph had so badly messed up the TD years.

 

As SJBF suggested, my post was a direct response to Kelly's post specifically about the Bills in the Super Bowl, and had NOTHING to do about Marv as GM. Taking it out of context to bash Ralph as owner is quite the agenda.

 

As for the string of other posts regarding Marv the coach, I have no problem with his regular season or playoff coaching. However, he needed to recognize when the team was overmatched (especially in the era of NFC dominance) and put together a gameplan to offset any advantage the other team might have thereby giving the team the best chance to win, even if the team across from them might be the more talented team. That's what a head coach is supposed to do. I would argue that Sean Peyton did that last year, and that Parcells did that to him in the first SB. And for those Corey posts, yeah, the read and react/bend but don't break philosophy when you have that much talent and should be able to dictate the flow of the game both offensively AND defensively was a pure waste. Can you imagine how much MORE fun we could have had if BOTH the offense and defense had that go for the throat attitude.

Edited August 26, 2010 by transient

[JohnC]

Goddamn! How could that joke of a Jauron tenure been allowed to continue? So unbelievable, it makes me sick.

Yeah it's in the past, but no one other than the coaching staff was booted for that debacle.

 

Dick Jauron was hired. Dick Jauron was then given an extension. In addition, Dick Jauron was given more authority on personnel issues. What does that say for the collective judgment of this organization? The central problem for the franchise was the third rate nature of the organization. Hopefully, that issue is currently being addressed.