spread offense for Buffalo

[DarthICE]

If we are going to run the spread, we need a QB much better than what we have on this roster.

[Guest dog14787]

STOP ALREADY!!! Edwards !@#$ing sucks! He can't make decisions worth a !@#$, can't stay healthy, has a weak arm... Enough of this Edwards horse ****.

 

 

You mean make decisions as he's getting planted into the turf because our O-line can't pass protect properly.

 

We see things differently, put TE behind a decent O-line/good coaching and Trent Edwards succeeds in my opinion.

[PDaDdy]

If we are going to run the spread, we need a QB much better than what we have on this roster.

 

 

ALSO...something people keep trying to diminish the importance of....the bigger your QB's arm the more field you can challenge If your noodle arm, ballless hurler can't throw the ball over 30yds in the air it's he's certainly not as effective at spreading/stretching the field.

[eball]

You mean make decisions as he's getting planted into the turf because our O-line can't pass protect properly.

 

We see things differently, put TE behind a decent O-line/good coaching and Trent Edwards succeeds in my opinion.

Dog, it's not always the line's fault. I have seen far too many plays in which Edwards had "all day" and couldn't pull the trigger. He does not have the confidence to throw the ball into tight spaces -- at least that's what I see.

[PDaDdy]

QUOTE (dog14787 @ Feb 5 2010, 01:47 PM) *

You mean make decisions as he's getting planted into the turf because our O-line can't pass protect properly.

 

We see things differently, put TE behind a decent O-line/good coaching and Trent Edwards succeeds in my opinion.

 

Dog, it's not always the line's fault. I have seen far too many plays in which Edwards had "all day" and couldn't pull the trigger. He does not have the confidence to throw the ball into tight spaces -- at least that's what I see.

 

 

I changed my signature but it used to be a quote from Jim Kelly on Edwards. It was basically something to the same effect. When Edwards had his chances when the line held up he had no balls to get the job done and his accuracy was HORRIBLE. Some of it is on the line a lot of it is on Edwards.

[Guest dog14787]

Dog, it's not always the line's fault. I have seen far too many plays in which Edwards had "all day" and couldn't pull the trigger. He does not have the confidence to throw the ball into tight spaces -- at least that's what I see.

 

 

TE has regressed , but what if along with poor protection your number one receiver refused to deviate from his route half the time and the other half let footballs bounce off his fat head. What if you had so many inexperienced OC's and changes in the Offense, going from no huddle to God knows what in such a short time span you lost confidence in the system. What if two concussions in under a 12 month period had a lasting effect on your decision making.

 

What if all the odds stacked against TE where simply to much?

[Cynical]

As to a spread vs traditional offense....the spread can work (see Colts, Saints, Pats), but is better suited for the Domes but it can work anywhere. The K Gun was basically a spread formation, so if you have a great trigger man you can run it. The best example of the traditional offense would the Cowboys with Emmitt, D Johnston, Aikman, Novacek, Irvin, and Harper. Again, that works too...but any darn offense revolves around the trigger man.

 

While the K-Gun is a spread formation, it also should noted it was not the only offensive formation the Bills ran. The K-Gun revolved around the tight end, and was so named after the Bills Tight End, Keith McKeller. Like most "spread offenses" in the NFL today, none are run as the base offense, but are incorporated as part of the teams overall offensive package. Even the Senator's examples show the spread offense only being used as one tool in a teams offensive arsenal.

 

This no different than how the Wildcat was going to "revolutionize" the NFL. After 2 years, most teams have figured out how to add it to their offensive package, but no team in their right mind is going to run it as their base offense.

 

If people want to know what a full time base spread offense looks like, and how well it would operate in the NFL, then they need to look no further than the "Run 'N Shoot" (a/k/a the "Chuck 'N Duck", thank you Buddy!)

 

The Run 'N Shoot was the last spread offense in the NFL designed to be run as the entire offensive package.

 

When we find our QB, we can run whatever we want b/c it is all about the QB in the NFL. Yes, there are the few exceptions, when the D is so dominant, but those teams historically have not sustained dominance, whereas, the teams with great QBs can re-load year after year.

 

I'd like to see Brohm get his shot at the role. He has the measurables, toughness, intelligence, leadership qualities, and arm to get it done and he is ready.

 

IMHO, not without competition. Handing the starting QB position to a third string practice squad player is a disaster waiting to happen.

[tennesseeboy]

ALSO...something people keep trying to diminish the importance of....the bigger your QB's arm the more field you can challenge If your noodle arm, ballless hurler can't throw the ball over 30yds in the air it's he's certainly not as effective at spreading/stretching the field.

Not really...Mike Leach was extremely successful with the spread offense with quarterbacks who really weren't all that good, at least judging by later performance in the NFL. in fact one might argue that the Texas Tech spread was designed and implemented in part because Leach knew recruiting in that part of Texas would be a challenge and he had to make do with less than great players (at lest in the beginning). Now if this were the design I just don't know why we wouldn't have moved heaven and earth to get Mike Leach as OC.

 

Gailey used the spread at KC as a last desperate attempt to get the team to a position to win a few games. I'm not sure he's a huge advocate of the system.

[muffmonster]

You mean make decisions as he's getting planted into the turf because our O-line can't pass protect properly.

 

We see things differently, put TE behind a decent O-line/good coaching and Trent Edwards succeeds in my opinion.

 

Agreed the line is rubish, but don't use that excuse, Fitzpatrick had less sacks then TE did with more games played. TE is horrible at avoiding pressure.

[PDaDdy]

Not really...Mike Leach was extremely successful with the spread offense with quarterbacks who really weren't all that good, at least judging by later performance in the NFL. in fact one might argue that the Texas Tech spread was designed and implemented in part because Leach knew recruiting in that part of Texas would be a challenge and he had to make do with less than great players (at lest in the beginning). Now if this were the design I just don't know why we wouldn't have moved heaven and earth to get Mike Leach as OC.

 

Gailey used the spread at KC as a last desperate attempt to get the team to a position to win a few games. I'm not sure he's a huge advocate of the system.

 

Isn't that my point though? To spread the field in the NFL you need a big arm. Your scenarios support this assertion. Leach had success with some bad QBs in the college ranks but they stunk it up if they made it to the pros.

 

Just talking about spreading the field before people drag up the corpse of Joe Montana or any other of a minute handful of successful QBs that didn't have a big arm.

[PDaDdy]

Agreed the line is rubish, but don't use that excuse, Fitzpatrick had less sacks then TE did with more games played. TE is horrible at avoiding pressure.

 

 

+100

 

 

We know this but some still hold a torch.

[CarolinaBill]

Isn't that my point though? To spread the field in the NFL you need a big arm. Your scenarios support this assertion. Leach had success with some bad QBs in the college ranks but they stunk it up if they made it to the pros.

 

Just talking about spreading the field before people drag up the corpse of Joe Montana or any other of a minute handful of successful QBs that didn't have a big arm.

no, what he is saying is that spread qb's don't need a big arm as much as they need to be quick decision makers, and good at the intermediate routes, thats why colleges have started running spreads, 5 star recruits are NOT a dime a dozen. Moving the chains is how it works, as long as the qb has an average arm, and makes the right reads it works, its easier to take a guy with decent arm and smart and make him a spread guy than it is to roll the dice on every big arm qb that comes down the pike and hope he works out.

[F UNC]

While the K-Gun is a spread formation, it also should noted it was not the only offensive formation the Bills ran. The K-Gun revolved around the tight end, and was so named after the Bills Tight End, Keith McKeller. Like most "spread offenses" in the NFL today, none are run as the base offense, but are incorporated as part of the teams overall offensive package. Even the Senator's examples show the spread offense only being used as one tool in a teams offensive arsenal.

 

This no different than how the Wildcat was going to "revolutionize" the NFL. After 2 years, most teams have figured out how to add it to their offensive package, but no team in their right mind is going to run it as their base offense.

 

If people want to know what a full time base spread offense looks like, and how well it would operate in the NFL, then they need to look no further than the "Run 'N Shoot" (a/k/a the "Chuck 'N Duck", thank you Buddy!)

 

The Run 'N Shoot was the last spread offense in the NFL designed to be run as the entire offensive package.

 

 

 

IMHO, not without competition. Handing the starting QB position to a third string practice squad player is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Yeah, we agree the K-Gun was multiple...it could do it all...was just saying it was spread sometimes.

 

I also agree in competition at all positions. Brohm v McKoy or Clause or Lefevour or Bradford!

[F UNC]

Yeah, we agree the K-Gun was multiple...it could do it all...was just saying it was spread sometimes.

 

I also agree in competition at all positions. Brohm v McKoy or Clause or Lefevour or Bradford!

I'd also like to see competition in mock drafts....couldn't resist! (sarcasm fellas, I like the poster, he shows good moxie)

[K-9]

Haven't read the entire thread so if this point was already made, my apologies.

 

The long and short (no pun intended) of the spread offense is this: it is EXTREMELY vulnerable at the edges. Unless you have 5 good OLmen, a QB that can make proper pre and post snap reads, as well as receivers who can do the same, you will be in a world of hurt trying to run it most of the time. Currently, I don't see the personnel in place on our team to make it successful more than once in a while.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Guest dog14787]

Agreed the line is rubish, but don't use that excuse, Fitzpatrick had less sacks then TE did with more games played. TE is horrible at avoiding pressure.

 

Excuse you say,

 

Its funny how some folks will admit to O-line problems yet refuse to think it doesn't directly effect how the QB performs.

[PDaDdy]

no, what he is saying is that spread qb's don't need a big arm as much as they need to be quick decision makers, and good at the intermediate routes, thats why colleges have started running spreads, 5 star recruits are NOT a dime a dozen. Moving the chains is how it works, as long as the qb has an average arm, and makes the right reads it works, its easier to take a guy with decent arm and smart and make him a spread guy than it is to roll the dice on every big arm qb that comes down the pike and hope he works out.

 

 

I guess a spread, is not a spread, is not a spread. To me that short underneath quick passing game sounds like the West Coast offense. Doesn't it to you? Again, I'm not an expert so can you explain the difference between the quick decision, intermediate route, move the chains spread offense and the quick decision, intermediate route move the chains West Coast offense?

 

And I in NO WAY WHAT SO EVER advocate rolling the dice on every big arm QB that comes down the pike. I do however advocate not rolling the dice on every "he was good in college" noodle arm QB that comes down the pike in hopes that he can be the 1 - 20 to overcome his short comings in the arm department. HUGE difference there.

[muffmonster]

Excuse you say,

 

Its funny how some folks will admit to O-line problems yet refuse to think it doesn't directly effect how the QB performs.

 

It certainly affects QB play, never said it didn't.

[pioniere]

ppl are saying Gailey will run a spread offense...what exactly is a spread offense and what does it entail?..do we have enough WR's to do this?..what do you think Buffalo needs to get to run this offense?...hehe, sorry..just wanted to pick your brains on this as I'm trying to do my mock draft and wondering if we have the necessary components for this offense they want to use...so far I see our WR's being Evans, Johnson, Hardy, Parrish and Reed...not sure if Parrish fits or will be kept...T.O will be gone most likely and Hardy is still a ?...I like Reed, but does he fit and/or stay?...From my understanding the spread is a 5 WR with no RB and the QB in shotgun...although I see more of a 4 WR with RB and QB in shotgun...but does this mean 4 actual WR's or just 4 receivers consisting of WR, TE and RB's?..if so, then it really doesn't sound all that different then just an offense..ok I sound stupid here, but I'd really like to know..thanx

 

Check out this site: http://www.thespreadoffense.com/

 

Google, obviously, also has lots on the spread.

 

A spread can be running or passing oriented. The idea is to spread out the defense and open more running/passing lanes.

[Coach55]

A-11 legal?

Not in the NFL.

[Coach55]

#1 Beneficiary if we go to a spread offense - Fred Jackson. He is the absolute perfect back for a spread offense. He is great at reading holes fast and more importantly, he runs routes as has as good of hands as most receivers. He could go for 2000 rushing and receiving combined if they go to a spread. (Also, you could also kiss Mr Lynch and his dancing good bye as his style of running and his Robert Royal like hands are not very useful in this style of offense.)

[DarthICE]

You mean make decisions as he's getting planted into the turf because our O-line can't pass protect properly.

 

We see things differently, put TE behind a decent O-line/good coaching and Trent Edwards succeeds in my opinion.

 

There is no !@#$ing line on this planet that makes him better, he flat sucks. We keep Edwards and this franchise will continue to be **** for years.

 

Time to cut the friggin BS and get a real QB in here.

[DarthICE]

QUOTE (dog14787 @ Feb 5 2010, 01:47 PM) *

You mean make decisions as he's getting planted into the turf because our O-line can't pass protect properly.

 

We see things differently, put TE behind a decent O-line/good coaching and Trent Edwards succeeds in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

I changed my signature but it used to be a quote from Jim Kelly on Edwards. It was basically something to the same effect. When Edwards had his chances when the line held up he had no balls to get the job done and his accuracy was HORRIBLE. Some of it is on the line a lot of it is on Edwards.

 

Exactly, Edwards is a chicken ****. No line is going to help him find the balls to make the NFL throws. He is a flat out coward and won't throw into coverage. Not only that, I am sick of his limp wristed, push the ball throwing style that ends up short hopping on out routes. I am sick of seeing deep ball wobble.

[John from Riverside]

The spread offense helps create one on one match ups, reduces blitzing and decreases the amount of formations a defense will try to run. In this day and age it allows the QB the ability to see and read the field more efficiently.

 

Trent Edwards has one of the quickest releases in the NFL, in my opinion he would excel in a spread offense.

 

 

Pats in a spread offense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pats-Eag...tadium_crop.jpg

 

Former Texas Coach Mike Leach/ mad scientist of football, incorporates his RB's and TE's into a spread offense in a way that is practically unstoppable when executed by the QB properly.

 

 

If Edwards is the QB do all the receivers run 5 yard patterns?

[DarthICE]

If Edwards is the QB do all the receivers run 5 yard patterns?

 

That or we line 4 guys up in the backfield so limp wrist can do nothing but checkdown routes. And those had better be wide open or he won't throw it to them.

[PDaDdy]

#1 Beneficiary if we go to a spread offense - Fred Jackson. He is the absolute perfect back for a spread offense. He is great at reading holes fast and more importantly, he runs routes as has as good of hands as most receivers. He could go for 2000 rushing and receiving combined if they go to a spread. (Also, you could also kiss Mr Lynch and his dancing good bye as his style of running and his Robert Royal like hands are not very useful in this style of offense.)

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me how it is apparently impossible to complement Fred Jackson without also taking a shot at Lynch. *sheesh*

 

Let's run everybody who has made a probowl out of town. Hell let's get rid of Morman too. Our special teams sucked this year! Lazy ass kicker who can't kick a simple ball and hit the spots.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

K-Gun was almost never a spread. Spread puts 5 people out wide. No traditional TE on the line, no RB in the backfield. 5 blockers and the QB.

 

In K-Gun, Thurman/Kenny Davis were almost always in the backfield, and McKeller/Metzelaars were almost always in the traditional TE spot. K-Gun was usually a 3 WR set. Short yardage brought Carwell Gardner in for Beebe. It was VERY rare for Thurman to split out wide.

[Guest dog14787]

There is no !@#$ing line on this planet that makes him better, he flat sucks. We keep Edwards and this franchise will continue to be **** for years.

 

Time to cut the friggin BS and get a real QB in here.

 

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-lounge/v...cf-aefb3d076dba

 

 

BS?

 

I hear all this BS, TE cant do this, he can't do that, TE can't throw the ball over 5 yards. I mean sure this is KC, but my point being, don't tell me TE can't make all the throws or make big plays when I know he can.

[Red]

Basically - VERY basically - a 'spread offense' is an offensive package designed to make the defense defend the entire field; it could be thought of as a set of looks and play options designed to 'spread' the opponent's defense both horizontally and vertically, making them defend the entire field. In a spread offense the QB typically lines up in a shotgun formation, and either all offensive targets line up as receivers at the LOS, or one RB lines up in the backfield with 4 receivers at the LOS.

 

It's high-power, high-scoring offensive strategy typically used in college - Urban Meyer is one or the premier architects/disciples of 'the spread', and used it successfully with national championships with Chris Leak in 2006 and Tim Tebow in 2008. Mike Leach's Texas Tech teams ran a version of 'the spread' that some call the 'air raid' - almost exclusively pass-oriented - and led the NCAA in passing offense 6 of the past 8 seasons, placing 2nd the other two. At Florida, Meyer/Tebow used a package referred to as the 'spread option' where the QB can either pass, hand off to the RB, or run the ball himself, depending in his read.

 

(Most TSW experts will insist that 'the spread' will never work in the NFL, even though Urban Meyer's close friend Bill Belichick* has used a spread package with Tom Brady* & and the Patriettes* for years, with amazing success. Peyton Manning and the Colts frequently use a spread offense as well - just watch how many times Manning audibles this Sunday and puts all 5 targets at the LOS.)

 

Granted, both the Colts and Pats have used a similar package in the past. But there are 2 important points that I think you miss:

 

1.) Personnel- Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are a far cry from Edwards, Tebow, Vick, or whoever else we get as a QB in the immediate future. Not to mention the WR's needed to run it effectively.

 

and

 

2.) Neither of these teams runs a spread offense exclusively as its base package. Rather, they are situational-types of offenses, and IMO to run it as your sole identity on offense is severely limiting yourself like the run-and-shoot offenses of the late 80's and early 90's.

 

It would be a colossal mistake if this is true.

 

Especially since we don't play in a dome and are exposed to the swirling winds of Ralph Wilson Stadium 7 times per year.

 

We need a strong running game and dominating offensive line.

[PDaDdy]

K-Gun was almost never a spread. Spread puts 5 people out wide. No traditional TE on the line, no RB in the backfield. 5 blockers and the QB.

 

In K-Gun, Thurman/Kenny Davis were almost always in the backfield, and McKeller/Metzelaars were almost always in the traditional TE spot. K-Gun was usually a 3 WR set. Short yardage brought Carwell Gardner in for Beebe. It was VERY rare for Thurman to split out wide.

 

 

Answer me this. Is the spread offense determined by position title or by how it attacks the defense and the match ups and isolation it tries to take advantage of?

 

I could be wrong but I think there is some confusion between spreading out your pre snap formation and spreading out the defense by attacking at different levels from sideline to sideline.The Bills were able to do this in many ways including from 2 TE and or 2 RB sets. Our TE's were money and they could get down the field. Our RBs, a Ronnie Harmon dropped pass aside, were also damn good receivers.

 

I think the K-gun started out being basically anytime Kelly was in the shot gun. The "gun" portion if you will and initially when McKellar was in the game, the K portion.

[PDaDdy]

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-lounge/v...cf-aefb3d076dba

 

 

BS?

 

I hear all this BS, TE cant do this, he can't do that, TE can't throw the ball over 5 yards. I mean sure this is KC, but my point being, don't tell me TE can't make all the throws or make big plays when I know he can.

 

 

Dog, you seriously need to give it up man. If you are judging Trent's potential by one game then JP is the next Brett Farve. Seriously! He had ONE truly good game against a TRULY terrible team. That single game is basically his only example of any half way decent down field throwing. The "Trent Flame Carriers" cling to it desperately as proof that their guy really isn't as bad as almost EVERYONE else now believes.

[CarolinaBill]

I guess a spread, is not a spread, is not a spread. To me that short underneath quick passing game sounds like the West Coast offense. Doesn't it to you? Again, I'm not an expert so can you explain the difference between the quick decision, intermediate route, move the chains spread offense and the quick decision, intermediate route move the chains West Coast offense?

 

And I in NO WAY WHAT SO EVER advocate rolling the dice on every big arm QB that comes down the pike. I do however advocate not rolling the dice on every "he was good in college" noodle arm QB that comes down the pike in hopes that he can be the 1 - 20 to overcome his short comings in the arm department. HUGE difference there.

I've said before that the spread is a different variation on the west coast offense, but essentially very much the same.

 

In terms of college qb's, If this regime wants to be a spread/WC offense, then you should be targeting guys that 1: have experience in the system, and have proven they have the ability to run it. or 2: are able to learn it, Brohm didnt pick up the system in GB very well, but he ran a spread at louisville, so there must be a difference in language or complexity or something, but a guy like Claussen, or Lefevour would be great for these systems or even bradford. So would thigpin or even troy smith I think would be good in this style offense, the guys I don't want are guys like pennington, vick, Mccoy, Tebow for various reasons.

[Guest dog14787]

Dog, you seriously need to give it up man. If you are judging Trent's potential by one game then JP is the next Brett Farve. Seriously! He had ONE truly good game against a TRULY terrible team. That single game is basically his only example of any half way decent down field throwing. The "Trent Flame Carriers" cling to it desperately as proof that their guy really isn't as bad as almost EVERYONE else now believes.

 

 

I'm not judging TE's potential by one game, just showing that given time TE can make all the throws. The pocket the O-line gave the QB on the long ball to Lee Evans is what you should be seeing on a regular basis if you have a half decent O-line.

[tonyjustbcuz]

The spread offense helps create one on one match ups, reduces blitzing and decreases the amount of formations a defense will try to run. In this day and age it allows the QB the ability to see and read the field more efficiently.

 

Trent Edwards has one of the quickest releases in the NFL, in my opinion he would excel in a spread offense.

 

 

Pats in a spread offense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pats-Eag...tadium_crop.jpg

 

Former Texas Coach Mike Leach/ mad scientist of football, incorporates his RB's and TE's into a spread offense in a way that is practically unstoppable when executed by the QB properly.

 

 

Enough already! Go let Trent Edwards excel in that same league that Lossman did as he can't sense when the defense is about to sack him. He often throws 5 yards short or too far of the receiver when nobody is even in his face. I've heard the announcers on occasion mention that he had a lot of time but just didn't see his wide open receiver down field! His best passes were to the other team for a touchdown! I hope he reads this so I can tell him to fly away butterfly! Besides, he is lousy in the inclement weather...snow, fog, rain, sleet, cold, etc...and I remember an atrocious couple of games against Cleveland, and one in particular against Philadelphia amongst others! They need to go outside of the organization for their starter FA QB..and have either Brohm or Fitz as a backup...and whichever one of those two don't survive can them too and draft a QB as well! I don't see Chan Gailey not drafting or picking up a FA QB as the new starter!! I'll would lay $$$ on it if I were a gambler!!!!

[manbeast]

I mean this really says it all. If you don't have a clue about the spread offense, please keep your mock to the privacy of your own closet and imaginary friends.

Why is it no one attacks the idiots who make stupid statements about the 3-4 and that I would say is 75% of the people on these boards the same people who don't know s##t about the cover 2 Leave em alone at least he doesn't profess to be an expert.

[manbeast]

I'm not judging TE's potential by one game, just showing that given time TE can make all the throws. The pocket the O-line gave the QB on the long ball to Lee Evans is what you should be seeing on a regular basis if you have a half decent O-line.

Except the ones that are 40-50 yards down field.

[manbeast]

#1 Beneficiary if we go to a spread offense - Fred Jackson. He is the absolute perfect back for a spread offense. He is great at reading holes fast and more importantly, he runs routes as has as good of hands as most receivers. He could go for 2000 rushing and receiving combined if they go to a spread. (Also, you could also kiss Mr Lynch and his dancing good bye as his style of running and his Robert Royal like hands are not very useful in this style of offense.)

In 2008 Marshawn Lynch had 47 receptions.

[manbeast]

Agreed the line is rubish, but don't use that excuse, Fitzpatrick had less sacks then TE did with more games played. TE is horrible at avoiding pressure.

Fitz is more mobile definitely

[Barack Obama]

OH GOD

What?

[Hazed and Amuzed]

No offense, but if you don't understand what the spread offense is, you probably should not be posting mock drafts...

Why? What are the guidelines to posting a mock, just so we know...