dave mcbride

Not so sure about that. Russell led the league 11 years in a row in defensive win shares. It’s an advanced stat, to be sure, but it’s probably a better stat than mere counting stats: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html

Growing up, i was always under the impression that Bill russell was the better all-around center than chamberlain.

No, i don’t think things are much different now than then in terms of relative talent levels, and it’s impossible to determine anyway. Brown dominated like no other, and that should somehow be held against him?. More broadly, I think it’s a fundamentally ridiculous argument to argue that context shouldn’t factor in. Was Von Manstein a more technically adept military strategist than Hannibal? Probably, but it is ridiculous to make that argument for fairly obvious reasons.

Downgrading a player because he played in a different era is a category error. You go down that path, and you’re liable to say crazy things like Babe Ruth not being the best MLB player ever. Treat all players in the actual context in which they played. There are no time machines!

Word on the street (i.e., albert breer) is that some teams have oliver pegged significantly higher than the conventional mock draft wisdom.

No, it’s a Bills board populated by Bills fans knowledgeable about the NFL and who become smarter by engaging with other Bills fans (and occasionally fans from other teams) who enjoy discussing the larger context of the NFL. If this board became a straight-up Bills board I’d flee ASAFP.

He was 100 percent correct about Mahomes.

His defenses at the U in the early 2000s were among the top-rated in the country for multiple seasons. His record at the U as DC was fantastic.

The guy narrating this has a pretty thick and obvious WNY accent, so I’ll take the neutrality he’s pitching with a grain of salt. It’s pretty weak analysis too, unfortunately.

Lotta Buffalo in this Boston Globe piece on Gronk, with Vic Carucci playing a starring role re: the high school years at Williamsville North (I went to East and about half of my friends went to North). https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2019/03/24/gronkowski-retires-nothing-less-than-football-folk-hero/llRb5DoBUFAyX4VXqv8vBM/story.html

The td/int ratio is SO deceiving. How many times did he get them down to within the five and then hand it off on the next play for a td? Td drives engineered is a better stat for him this year given their run first approach inside the 10.

They have of course won without him and with him, but (and I may be proven wildly wrong for saying this) I think this last SB victory was their final part of "unfinished business." I think losing to Philly was a *massive* disappointment, and the victory over LA settled that score in a big way. I really do think we're at the end. They have lost a lot of good players, and Brady is 42. Although I know they're good at reloading, I just think we're currently in the twilight phase of an era. I don't expect them to be a truly dominant team next season. They've ruled for 18 years, and all things -- good and bad -- come to an end. Bills, Jets, and Dolphins (plus Pitt, Indy, and KC) fans have been so brutalized that they have a hard time conceiving of their prison term ever ending, but it will.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree - I'm good with that!

I believe that Jim Brown is in the running for greatest player of all time regardless of position. Have you ever watched film of him? He dominated the field. Sanders was a great player too, and I don't hold it against him for playing for a bad team (so be very careful about putting words in my mouth!). He didn't control that. The Pats record with our without Gronk doesn't really matter much to me or say much of anything. When he was on the field, he was utterly dominant and the stats back it up at pretty much every level. Over 15 ypc for his CAREER? And for a TE? That is remarkable. And 9.9 yards per target? That's first in modern history. Just to be clear, I have no interest at all in longevity stats. I care about prime-era windows. Again, if you care about longevity stats, you're compelled to argue that Don Sutton and Phil Niekro were better pitchers than Sandy Koufax. Emmitt Smith played out the string as a sub-league average RB in terms of YPC in his final four seasons, and that got him the record. But that late-career counting-stat production hardly burnished his career.

I'm not sure about the point you're trying to make. I'm just saying that Jim Brown played in basically the same number of games as Gronk, and I don't think any other RB was nearly as dominant as him.

Worth everyone's time who cares about this debate (and I realize not everyone does!): https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gronk-was-the-most-efficient-receiver-weve-seen/.

Gronk wasn't around for Giants victory #1.

They did miss it in 2002 (9-7). They went 10-6 in 2005 and lost to Denver in Denver in the divisional round. Brady was fine both seasons. He missed the 2008 season.

Nope: The 2002 and (to a lesser extent) 2005 seasons?

The greatest RB of all time retired at exactly the same age as Gronk. He played 118 games, but fewer than Gronk overall because the latter's postseason appearances.

Chris Simms speaks truth here: https://www.nbcsports.com/video/new-england-patriots-rob-gronkowski-retires-after-nine-seasons?ls=pftvod

Mere counting stats. I can go through any number of postseason games in which HE made the play as much as anyone. To start, the amazing fourth and long catch against Denver in the 2015 AFC championship that put them in position to tie the game. His catches against KC late in the AFC championship game this season. His blocking vs the Chargers this year and vs the Colts in the 2014 afc championship game. His embarrasment of Darby in the Super Bowl last season. it goes without saying that he was a MUCH better blocker than Gonzalez ever was.

Compare Gonzalez’s postseason stats with Gronk’s and pro-rate the numbers: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GonzTo00.htm https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GronRo00.htm

These are mere counting stats. No TE dominated the game like Gronk in his prime. Don’t get me wrong - Gonzalez was a terrific player. But he was nowhere near as good as Gronk. Arguing that he was better than Gronk is like arguing that Don Sutton was better than Sandy Koufax. Primes matter in evaluating a player. Also, look at Gronk’s postseason stats. Seriously.

I think he is the greatest TE in NFL history and that it ain’t even really close. Just look at his postseason stats.