Mikie2times

Lee Evans, Winfield, Takeo, Clements, Fletcher.....I get a lot of these guys didn't play forever. If you drop Fitz from your list, I will drop everybody from mine. I agree Wood and Kyle stand out, really, Kyle stands alone if you want to get more granular.

I think both McDermott and Beane have done an excellent job executing a vision. I just don't know if that vision is going to prove best. I'm a bit envious of how the Colts constructed the team they have and the system they run. It's a very balanced team. If I had concerning thoughts about direction: I think we can be fine on defense, but we need physicality. We are too built for the pass and seemingly dependent on Star to bring any level of physicality. If he is that critical, find a viable back up. We do not have one and it shows when he doesn't play. On offense I feel we are way too reliant on the pass. We need to be able to run more traditional sets and run the ball. I question if Daboll is the right guy for the job. Daboll is to the passing game as Roman is to the running game and while both can be clever, I feel like too much of anything is a bad thing. Give me balance. If you notice both our offense and defense is heavily centered around the passing game. Which is fine, it's a passing league, but at times the lack of balance really shows in our physicality.

Brieda is cot capable of carrying a significant amount of the workload. He is undersized and will get destroyed running between the tackles. What Buffalo is doing is focusing on using him on the edges and he does well in those situations. I would like to keep seeing that, but don't kid yourself into thinking this guy can do anything more.

I think the growth is for the fan base. This is a team that will compete for a playoff spot. You are what you're. We have never looked any better than that this year and until we do, no reason to buy into hype.

Its going to be exciting to compete for a playoff spot this year

I'm going to be anti Bills and just focus on winning the division for now. We can talk about home field once that is clear.

I'm posting a couple links to sites that focus on notable 3-4 DE's and 4-3 DE's in NFL history. It's slightly outdated, but does as good job as far showing the difference in production from 3-4 DE's vs 4-3 DE's. The last link is All Time Sack leaders comprised of 3-4 OLB's and 4-3 DE's. You see a rare DT exception as well and then Bruce, who might as well be on an island as far as this list is concerned with 3-4 DE's. I think Buffalo took probably the best defensive player in NFL history and put him into a scheme that helped decent LB's and a a poor secondary. Who knows, the entire defense was likely built around Bruce being able to subtract two players every down. I will not disrespect what Reggie did and say he was worse, but I can't do it to Bruce either. 3-4 Best DE's https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-top-3-4-defensive-ends-in-nfl.html 4-3 Best DE's https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-top-4-3-ends-in-nfl-history.html Career Sacks Leaders http://www.espn.com/nfl/history/leaders/_/stat/sacks

Maybe at Oklahoma State

What's funny is arguably the next closest thing to to the 2,000 in 14 games is Browns 1,863, with a 6.4 AVG. OJ was worse at 6.0 AVG in his 2000 yard year. In sum, If Jim Brown got the carries he would have had a better year, but it's similar to the White/Smith debate. Bruce got it partly because he played longer. In evaluating GOAT shouldn't that play a role? Just as it plays a role to get that high in fewer games? One requires more top end production and one requires more endurance, consistency and ability to avoid injury. Both are different but equally important traits. As poster said, this like picking your favorite guitarist. I would never say either was better, just different.

But, but, he was a Deacon.... If Reggie was still alive who would you rather invite over to meet your family? Who would you rather go to the bar and have a beer with? Depending on your values maybe that's a different answer, but I think Bruce is a real guy and when he had any problems he has been real about what they're. He seems like a genuinely solid person. Reggie did the lords work which gave him a lot of curbside appeal but he probably had a few skeletons packed in with that squeaky clean image. I value authentic people the most and I think Bruce was more authentic.

I considered this heavily prior to posting, but still don't think it happens which gives it even more respect. In theory it should be broken. It would be akin to passing stats and those will topple easily. That said it seems to be very hard to stay healthy in today's NFL as a DL for the time required to hit this milestone. Somebody already mentioned OJ's 2,000 in 14 games, which is just dumb. That said, Jim Brown did have a competitive year against that in 1963 with almost half a yard more per carry, he just fell short of the 2,000 by a little. I think the rushing records will the very difficult to break for many of the reasons you discuss. Buffalo played a a bend but don't break style of defense and never had a NT that was capable of demanding attention in Jeff Wright. That left a Guard and Tackle to regularly block Bruce. As I recall the Bills did move him around a little just trying to avoid double teams. Reggie played with Buddy Ryan for a part of his career and a much more talented front with the Eagles than we had in Buffalo. I don't remember his conditions in Green Bay as clearly. I don't have a problem stating Bruce played for a less aggressive defense and was double teamed more frequently. The former is just obvious from watching the Bills. Walt Corey was certainly a bend but don't break DC. As far as double teams, it would be nearly impossible to have the protection in a 3-4 you get in a 4-3 regardless of how your DC schemes. The alignment in a 3-4 just doesn't allow a DE to stay protected. For some perspective on this within the top 10 career sack leaders, none are 3-4 DE's besides Bruce. 6 More DE's in the top 10, all 6 are 4-3 DE's. 3-4 DE's being known as legends are so rare, it's almost like Buffalo put Bruce in the position they did because they knew how rare he was and it would always occupy two blockers and even still he would beat it. Nobody like Bruce exists as far as production in a 3-4 role. I know you didn't speak to this, but I also don't understand why people keep citing the QB protection rules. Shorter passes, sure. I would read this article if people are curious on that. https://www.vocativ.com/falsestart/376061/nfl-sack-rate-decline/index.html Agree completely. For me, Reggie was the most powerful DE of all time and had the best bull rush I've ever seen. Bruce was certainly powerful but had more athleticism and had the best spin move I've ever seen. I really don't know that you can argue one is better than the other.

I think it's lazy to default to Reggie as so many do based on so many less games to get to his 198. Being a 3-4 DE vs a 4-3 DE matters ALOT. Plenty of reasons you can make an argument for either but a lot of people stop comparing after that one fact and I don't feel it tells the whole story.

Ya I corrected that

Sometimes you don't know how rare something is before some time elapses. With the additional game, it's only a matter of time before nearly every record based on a total falls. One record that I think is different is the 200 sacks in a career by Bruce. After Reggie, the next closest player to Bruce is 40 sacks behind or the equivalent of 3 exceptional seasons. Consider the only active NFL player who is even a threat is Aaron Donald at 7 1/2 seasons and 30 years old. For him to eclipse Bruce, he would essentially have to duplicate his success for the same amount of time he has been in the league until he is 38 years old. Maybe in 4-5 years we can discuss if TJ Watt is a threat or not. That's what makes this record so ridiculous. You could average 10 sacks a year for 10 years and still only be half way. It's a record of consistency, stamina, and talent and even with the additional game I think it stands as long as any of them.

Josh Allen is better than Mahomes

Me neither, a few I strongly disagree with, but I like the mix of eras and lack of any bias.

To build this All-Time team, I used AV (Approximate Value) according to pro football reference. Instead of using the career total, I only included players with at least 50 games in a Bills uniform then I ranked them by average value per game (only in a Bills uniform). Doing it this way wasn’t perfect, but I felt it helped combine a few elements of what we are trying answer. With several positions having difficult separation, I just grouped the units together as the older player data is too cloudy. Like DB instead of CB or S / OL instead of OT or OG. These aren’t my opinions, it’s what the list produced. I agree with a lot of it but would be curious what others think. Interestingly, to the OP’s initial post, we have two players who already qualify. One more that is a shoe in if he hits 50 games. Then I would think you have to say Bass overtakes Christie even though I have no kicking roles listed. So 4 looks likely to occur according to this method. Allen would make 5, but he will need some serious hardware before he is a risk to overtake Kelly. Enjoy QB: Jim Kelly, Josh Allen Allen just qualified at 50 games, but considerably behind Kelly RB: OJ Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Joe Cribbs *Cookie Gilchrist only played in 42 games but would have been placed ahead of Thurman and behind OJ if he met the 50-game threshold. WR: Andre Reed, Eric Moulids, James Lofton, Elbert Dubenion, Lee Evans *Stephen Diggs would be rated just ahead of Reed if he maintains his current AV game score and passes the 50-game threshold TE: Ernie Warlick *Knox, at this time, wouldn’t even register in the top 7-8 if he was over 50 games, but it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t have a chance to be #1 if he stays here. I would have went with 2 TE’s we just had nothing viable. OL: Kent Hull, Richie Incognito, Ruben Brown, Joe Delamielleure, Billy Shaw *Will Wolford would be next; Dion Dawkins is not in the top 30 DL: Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak, Mario Williams, Ron McDole, Ted Washington *Jerry Hughes is behind several players and will never make the list LB: Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Mike Stratton, Tremaine Edmunds *Takeo Spike would be #1 if he hit the 50 game threshold, Sam Cowart would be just behind Edmunds if 50 game threshold was met DB: Butch Byrd, Robert James, George Saimes, Tre White, Nate Odomes *Nate Clements and Terrance McGee are right behind Odomes, Henry Jones and Micah Hyde follow shortly after. Hyde has a big hill to climb to get into the top 5 Top 10 1. OJ Simpson RB 2. Bruce Smith DL 3. Jim Kelly QB 4. Tom Sestak DL 5. Butch Byrd DB 6. Thurman Thomas RB 7. Joe Cribbs RB 8. Mario Williams DL 9. Shane Conlan LB 10. Cornelius Bennett #11 Would have been Josh Allen

Great post, this is one of those eternal debates but clearly you have really good perspective on it. I 100% agree with the Jets/Colts and Chiefs/Vikes. I guess we will really never know. Really different styles in the AFL as well, in my opinion more forward thinking than the NFL at that time, perhaps as result of less risk being felt to go outside the grain. Also some fantastic uniforms. Buffalo's were obviously great, Chargers, several others. The 60's was a really interesting era in Pro Football, 50's as well.

I don't know about this. The Cleveland Browns were part of a weaker league in the AAFC until they merged with the NFL in 1950. The first 6 years in the NFL they went 58-13 and won 3 championships. Those 60's Championship Bills teams were absolutely loaded and I feel would have been very competitive if not better than the eventual NFL champion. Maybe not the Packers in 65, but certainly the Browns in 64. I'm not even from Buffalo, but I do enjoy the history of the game and I consider the 64 team to still be the best Bills team of all time. Pro Football references SRS formula also has the 64 team as the best Bills team of all time, nearly a full point ahead of the 90 Bills. Below is Pro Football Reference all time career leaders in AV which is a pretty accurate tool they put together in normalizing data across multiple eras. Obviously Bruce Smith is the best of all time. Jerry Hughes is the highest ranked on our current roster. White is second. The AV system is adding seasonal data together so obviously the more years you play the more it likes you. I like that concept, but i was curious on per game ratings as well. OJ has the highest AV rating per game in Bills history. For players with a minimum of 60 games played in a Bills uniform, then sorted by game average. It goes Simpson, Smith, Kelly, Sestak, Byrd, and Thurman. White shows up at 16 all time when using this method. If I'm putting my money one current Bills player making the All Time list at his position I'm putting it on White even before Josh. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-av.htm

Honestly, I think I just got frustrated by how it was presented, because it is pretty damn interesting as long is everybody is looking at it the same way.

I think the OP missed on the way this should have been presented (I'm not dogging you OP it is a good question just confusing). Some are looking at it more like a single season, others are looking at it as far as a career and body of work, then others looking at it like pure talent. As an example, I would I take 2020 Diggs against any season James Lofton had AS A BILL, but not any in his career nor for his career and body of work. I also can't discount Andre Reed, Eric Mould's, or Elbert Dubenion career body work as a Bill compared to Diggs. I also think you have to look at performance relative to pears, well, if that's how you choose to look at it. Obviously any modern athlete is superior, is that how we want to look at this? I really don't know if that's a fair look. That said if this is a Bills list, I feel the standard should be both career and body of work as a Bill. At which point, nobody on our roster could be eligible yet. Some are inching closer. So the question would become who likely can it be? Which really becomes interesting because it's impacted by how good we have been at some positions historically as well as your future outlook of our roster. We are likely furthest away at RB and probably DE, just because Bruce was an all timer. He goes on every list, not just Bills lists. Then we have nobody close to OJ or Thurman.

Oh calm down, I'm not greased up with bitterness, I'm calling a spade a spade. You're right, this is a fan forum. I thought your post was one of the most short sighted I read on the forum in a long time and I have been here awhile. Perhaps I could have stated it with more sensitivity. Happy Holidays.

Doesn't sound like you're over 35, just a guess. Kelly has as many Super Bowl appearances as Allen has seasons. He is in the HOF. Allen very well could end up being the best, but it isn't even a conversation at this time. If you tried to bring your case to trial the judge would get pissed off at you for wasting his time.

Wow, we have entered into a new era of dumb with this thread.

Naaa, just doesn't fit your narrative. Further Zack Moss has a lower YPC by .1 and 1.1 yards vs Singletary in 2020 and 2021, over the period where we actually did start playing USFL ball. Please don't counter with red zone carries, it's not, already checked. Difference of 6 carries inside the 5 yard line both years combined. I would also find it unusual that Motor could get 35+ carries consistently at Florida Atlantic, then his rookie year average 5.1, then fatigue drops it to 5.0 this year? No pattern to your pattern. I'm not a prime club member of the the motor fan club. He has his issues, but what he is and isn't needs to be clear. He is elusive, agile, and fast in short areas. He is not somebody who can survive poor line play. He breaks very few tackles and is not a viable HR threat. Our line since he has been here has been elite bat at run blocking. Only an elite back would make a difference with elite bad run blocking line and most people on here aren't willing to spend the jack for an elite back. All things considered, if it was pick one, I would rather the money go to the line. It's more likely we correct that then land one of 3-5 guys in the NFL.