WideNine

Have no idea how good a scout Daboll is, he helped us raid some Crimson Tide under-the-radar talent, but having actually been there, that should have been a given. I don't know if I can lay this just at Daboll's feet, but OBD has really struggled for years landing marquis receivers that can stay on the field and be productive. He and Beane are going to be under a lot of scrutiny to see if they can really find the right tools to compliment a Josh Allen kind of offense. Getting our forgotten running game going would not hurt either - need to retool the RB position, clear some dead weight, etc.

You are not wrong, and I will not disagree with you on the picks of Ray Ray and Proehl. I am seriously hoping whoever creates their draft board and ranks WR prospects drops the pipe this year and does a much better job this time around. There is a lot of WR and TE talent coming out this year... and yes, I will join you with the pitchforks and torches if they pick another slot smurf that is projected by most to be an UFA.

Not to mention we have rarely gotten a good deal from officiating when we play Kraft's team at Gillette - I think you are probably right about the spread considering how banged up we are. Even if we do have a lead, I don't know if I quite trust our defense to hold it - they shut down Stafford last week, but he was playing with a lot of hurt. As a consolation prize, I would not mind if we knock Brady to the ground every time he drops back to pass and I would not mind if someone rocks Gronk - just a bit of payback for the White hit. This game is a win/win for us. If we lose we are already out of the playoffs and we secure a better draft position, if we win we can take pride in the fact that we sent a clear message that there is a changing of the guard in the AFC East and NE, Brady, and Darth Belicheat are starting their inevitable slide into NFL history. My hope is that with solid drafting, astute free agent pickups, new coaches and front office(s), NE will mount some kind of NFL comeback in 20 years or so, OR once I am dead and gone.

What I find interesting is that there are a few posters who rarely ever venture into starting a thread themselves, yet feel they are an authority on what is a good thread or not and are quick to offer their opinion. They are welcome to their opinion - of course, and I won't try too hard to change it, but I do think that if a thread is so terrible don't bother reading it, or better yet show some stones and start your own threads so others can sit back and judge them. I just like to get conversation rolling on the Wall - take it, or by all means leave it. I don't really mind that folks argue about the same things from a zillion different angles and will be likely arguing the same things next season, it is what it is. There are plenty of threads that state the obvious about this offense, yet you will still find plenty of people citing our lack of offensive production (the scoreboard) in defense of how poorly Daboll is performing as an OC or how poorly Allen is doing at the QB position. That is why I spelled it out in very clear, very "DUH" fashion as you put it, just how inexperienced and just how many castaways made up our starting roster last Sunday. There is plenty of reason to hope and be excited about this offseason, because if they can produce with the group they have now I cannot wait to see what they can do if OBD retools the line and weapons Josh has.

Weapons are nice, but I think you have to have time to get it to them... I agree with many posts here about upgrading our o-line via free-agency and picking up some WRs in the draft. It is obvious that this offense could use some veteran influence, especially along the line. Not trash, I think they have found some gems, but I am amazed that they have been able to get these guys ready to play. And I would expect routes to be run poorly and more than a bit of miscommunication out there - just think they are doing a pretty good job all things considered. Fair enough... it is not like I am a Daboll fan-boy, I see more than a few plays I would not agree with. The play you mentioned, that was a head scratcher, as well as the inside run for Josh that looked like a design play when we were running out the clock. I am fine with option plays where Josh rolls out and decides to keep it, or when he sees the defense has dropped back into zone or man leaving him a lot of room to run, but running him right into the teeth of the defense... he got rocked on that play.

Agree 100% and I don't think we have anyone behind Groy at Center, at least no one was listed on the depth chart. Likely one of the Guards could be pressed into duty if Groy gets injured - not that he has ever been injured before... which he has.

You are most welcome sir, but you forgot that this was also another excuse thread for Daboll. I will try to abstain from posting anything supportive about Josh Allen or Daboll on this forum - just for you.

Rather than bitching (complaining, nit-picking, whining, pick the appropriate adjective) about offensive production under Daboll or with Allen under center, I think we should all be more amazed that this motley collection below even have the capability to move the ball at all against other NFL teams. Just food for thought. Ladies and Gentlemen these are your Buffalo Bills! The starting roster on Offense for the Detroit game (at least for many of the snaps): 79 Jordan Mills T (Practice Squad Player) 73 Dion Dawkins T (2nd Year Starter) 75 Wyatt Teller G (Rookie - inactive thru Week 8) 76 John Miller G / Ike Boettger (4th year struggling player, lost snaps during the game to Ike Boettger Practice Squad) 72 Ryan Groy C (bounced around the NFL for 5 years PS w/Chicago, traded to NE and spent that time on IR, injury settlement, waived and went to TB Practice Squad then to Bills) 16 Robert Foster (Practice Squad) 11 Zay Jones (struggling 2nd Year Player) 19 Isaiah McKenzie (Practice Squad) 35 Keith Ford (Practice Squad) 80 Jason Croom (Practice Squad) 12 Josh Allen (Rookie QB)

I think the whole completion % thing has been beat to death, but I am pretty sure 26CB posted this clip at some point where Trent Dilfer talks about evaluating Allen. He also emphatically shares his disdain for the completion % stat when incorrectly used as a gauge for accuracy - for what it is worth from someone who played the game:

Daboll was a QB coach for the Jets for two years and Favre thought highly of him, Culley has spent time in the college ranks as a QB coach...so Josh actually has two at this point and I think you can see that Josh is getting coached. I will be curious to see how much input Daboll will have on this draft ...the Bills certainly hit on some Clemson UFA talent... but drafting Ray Ray, and Proehl - two guys both projected as slot receivers was not what I had in mind.

If I actually thought Josh was regressing I would agree. And I like Daboll so far in that he is creative...perhaps too creative at times, but I think he does put guys in a position where they could make a play more often than not. And those situations you mentioned are true for those situations. Josh isn't regressing, so I think it would not benefit him to have a change at OC.

I disagree a bit, but don't mind a game where they are sacrificing some completions for getting to Brady a lot.

Truth - and the reason for the hard count and the free pass play that they always go for.. most teams will get a PI, the refs were a bit wishy-washy on the calls last week. I would think you should take a few shots to see if they are calling it tight or not and if they are - go for it whenever you get that man coverage.

I know the Peterman subject is a sore one for most, but Peterman had his chances and they were epic terrible offensive outings. From all accounts the team liked Peterman and I don't get the sense anyone gave up on him, he just could not sense the rush or escape it which led to a lot of turnovers. Not just this year, but also when he had a much better o-line in front of him than Allen the year before when he filled in for an injured Tyrod, so folks just need to let that one go. I only mentioned him in regards to Zay dropped passes from him, and Tyrod, and any other QB throwing to him - that is all.

I remember that toss, looked like the Bills were in some kind of zone deep in the end zone a the receiver was being passed from gap to gap. Not a fan if that was the case. Will have to watch that play again to be sure. It could be that Wallace was on him and just lost a step - teams also like to cross up receivers to do a "rub" or "pick" to free up a receiver - the Patriots excel at that. I can see dropping guys into shallow zones that are as deep as the goal line and get in the way of passing lanes and work to prevent dump off, scrambles, and outlet passes from getting anywhere, but any deeper you need to have man coverage with maybe a safety or two playing center field watching the QBs eyes. I felt like Detroit's receiver had far to much room to find soft spots that Stafford could easily hit. And yeah, Stafford had too much time too, but he is a good QB when given some time and not playing beat up.

We will, unless the zebras get in the way and call back touchdowns on phantom or ticky-tacky holds, call roughing the Brady anytime anyone sneezes on him, or stretch 4th and 4 completions into 4th and 6... , or any other of the list of endless officiating "work overs" we have had over the years with the Pats. They are vulnerable this year, and if we can generate pressure on Brady with just our front 4 then we have a good chance. That, or we get the lead and our defense does the 4th qtr give away thing - hoping for the best.

This statement is not true. Our number of dropped passes is truly egregious, and only ranks a hair behind Arizona for NFL WORST.

What frustrates me most about evaluating kids coming up from college is the lack of finding out how many dropped passes they had. Some may have been featured in very pass-heavy offenses and simply had enough passes their way to offset several drops to have great receiving stats. The argument around Zay and Josh is not complete till you factor in that he dropped catchable passes all the time last year with Tyrod throwing them to him, dropped passes with a host of reserve QBs and Peterman throwing to him. The kid flat-out drops a lot of catchable balls and should not be in this conversation IMO. Now if you had a solid receiver with great hands who suddenly tailed off because Josh was throwing him the ball - different story, and perhaps one that would deserve closer scrutiny.

Sometimes it is hard to help - many teams run an empty set, or just one back to force teams to go man and some zone. Detroit flat-out lined up in Jumbo and used an o-lineman as a blocking fullback and spanked us like naughty kids whenever they were in short yardage. The Bills really did not have an answer to that set, where you really cannot do anything unless someone penetrates enough to trip up and take out that lead blocker - then the whole play is disrupted. Hopefully your defenders can still seal the edges because many times that is when the running back bounces it outside and walks into the end zone.

...and shush your business of talking about Daboll leaving. the last thing a rookie QB needs is a bunch of different playbooks thrown at him and a whole different brand of coaching philosophy to adapt to. Let Josh find his NFL game in one system is my sincere hope. I also think Daboll may just stick around as he has a chance with this QB to have a special offense if they can get him more protection and a few more weapons.

Yeah, Pat Williams had a pro-bowl afterlife with the Vikings after the Bills let him walk.

For the sake of peace between two solid posters - let's just say the truth is in the middle. Our receivers needed to elevate their game, some have and some have not, AND Josh needed to get better with ball placement - which anyone watching the games knows he has done. As for pulling in better weapons, for the kind of offense Josh could run, we need receivers with great hands that can stretch the field. Not all QBs can throw it on a rope 40+ yards, but ours can. You look for ways to use that to our advantage... not that a great possession type, blocking TE that can find soft spots in the shallow zones would be unwelcome.

This. The Bills need to do better homework on their receivers, and I agree with KTD where they are drafted means squat if they do not have the right skills, attitude, or fit into the kind of offense you want to run.

For those looking to make any critique a Kyle dig, it is simply apples to oranges. Kyle, from the day he was drafted, was the high-motor penetrating linemen you need to rush the passer. He is not, nor has he ever been considered your prototype "run stopper". Kyle's techniques are to shed blockers and get up field, it is those and his tenacity to never give up on those plays that have led him to well-deserved pro-bowls. That being said Kyle style of play was never intended to occupy two gaps, maintain leverage and push, to stop the run. Not saying he sucked at it, just that it is not how to best use what he brings to the game.

One could just as easily say that the rest of our scrub receiving core need to elevate their game to Foster's level... and I don't include McKenzie in that list because I think that kid does the most with what he has. What has Foster done differently? Reports a few weeks ago indicated that Foster was going out of his way to put in extra reps with Allen to get their timing down, when KB was asked by Allen to practice routes and timing he so much as said "meh". The success these two are having is not an accident.. the receivers need to put in the work and elevate their own play. McD indicated as much when asked about Foster, basically said that he hoped the other receivers were watching what Foster has done, the lessons he learned by work he puts in behind the scenes to find success. “Sometimes, people need a wake-up call that this life in the NFL, as we onboard these young players, life in the NFL, you’re not on scholarship and some guys need to understand that,” McDermott said. “Some players, unfortunately, never get it.” Foster agreed with his coach. “I needed it, I needed it,” Foster told reporters. “At the end of the day it helped me grow more into a student of the game. Player of the game. It made me work on things I needed to work on. It made me just do a lot more things that I could do to benefit the team.”