WideNine

Not sure why so many posters here seem to be downplaying Josh's arm, but you noted the exact thing I was thinking. Josh had no way to step up and no way to even use a full range of throwing motion on that pass as he was being mobbed and steamrolled by what seemed to be most of the Jag's d-line. I have no idea how he was able to get that pass off, not to mention on target and so far down the field. Having that kind of strength and accuracy behind basically a flick-of-the-wrist throw is a rare ability and I just hope they find a better way to protect this kid next year. Would be such a huge waste if they don't.

Kelvin played hard yesterday. Not sure if he will, but I hope when he (eventually) leaves this team he comes away understanding a bit more about accountability through the experience. I have found that Bills fans forgive a lot if a player is working his tail off trying to improve and help the team, even if the talent just is not there. Look at all the apologist for Peterman - I mean his performances were so epic-bad that news outlets were setting the way-back machine to try to find QBs in leather helmets that had worse showings, but he was a guy who was trying his hardest. On the other hand Bills fans will roast mercilessly players who cannot "man-up" and be accountable for taking care of their own business.

Teller actually gets "push" when he plays with technique, and that is what we need from our center and guard positions - our RT position just has to be able to take away that outside speed rush and clip after clip I watch it is not getting done. I read some of the comments that reference Parcell's thoughts on the Guard position - not sure if I agree about it being the easiest to fill, perhaps the easiest to hide poor play, but the truth will out. A solid guard will power your run game by moving bodies (backwards hopefully), he will hold his own in pass-pro and pick up the odd blitz up the middle, he also shores up the tackle and center spots if uncovered and they need support. Guards are also (generally - as I know there are a few exceptions) the only linemen that are asked to pull. Good guards are like the glue for your line. Obviously, the center handles the ball every snap so he has a huge responsibility in the exchange, but the next biggest asset is the ability to anchor and not get pushed back into the pocket in pass-pro and to use leverage when called upon to create the right running seams - often the center calls out the protections. We all know what we need from the tackle position - usually your best pass-pro lineman is on the left protecting the blind side, but the right tackle is expected to be able to move people and needs to be pretty good in pass-pro too. Many defensive coordinators now-a-days will line up their best pass rusher on the right side from time to time to get that pressure in the face of the QB. Teller can be that Guard we need on the left, I am still not sold on our Center (although I think he is a passable depth player) and I have not been impressed at all with our right side - although I think those guys are working their tails off.... I just don't know if the natural talent and strength are there. I feel bad saying that, but sometimes the talent is either there or not.

There is reason to be optimistic - the team has a good supply of draft picks and money to spend. An upgrade at center and overhaul of the right side of the line - that way the pocket isn't getting pushed into Josh's lap, less outside rush getting around our right tackle, and some real push from RG to open a few run lanes on that side then who knows what a steady run game could open up? A good receiver prospect and another TE if we're shopping, and as much as folks are high on Star, we give up far too many runs up the middle. Kyle has (and still is) a load rushing the QB, but he gets turned outside on runs...we could use another run stuffing DT that can keep our LBs clean when they come up to fill. Perhaps I am a bit hard on our d-line and I would have to watch more of those long runs, but on at least some of them I feel our LB's were slow to recognize run - particularly Edmunds from his Mike position. Milano is also a bit on the small side for LB (closer to having an extra safety at 6.0' 223) so he gets into trouble if he gets locked up with TE's and O-Line who get to the secondary clean (folks kept wondering why Milano was not on the field all the time earlier in the year - it was probably the coaches trying to rotate a bigger body in there on what they thought were going to be runs). I have to remind myself with Edmunds that he is really young and he will only get better, but recognizing runs and coming up to fill is an area of his game he will need to work on. His speed, size, and natural athleticism are already evident in the way he covers shallow routes, TE's, and how quickly he can change direction, recover, and close in and tackle when needed.

Big, tall, rangy players with so-so speed, who have a wide catch radius and can out-muscle guys for the ball. I think they used to call them Tight Ends? In all honesty you need WRs with speed and hands who can get separation, but I don't think it is a bad idea to have the kind of receiver that is a size mismatch against DBs and safeties. That type has to have great hands and the desire to compete for the ball especially in the red zone, who can also block and seal the edge so your RB can hit some outside runs....then you have KB who plays like he is scared of getting his uniform dirty, drops balls that hit him in the hands, no compete (so does his catch radius matter), pouts, blames others for the steaming pile of effort he leaves on the field. I don't know if it was a bad coaching idea looking for that type of a bigger receiver, or more of a failure evaluating personnel when they thought KB fit the mold. Glad to see they are at least looking to get some WRs on the field who can get separation and catch the ball.

He was listed at a conservative 331 on the Jags site...toss him a beer and you may be able to round that up to 345 or so. Darius was every bit a rare talent in regards to size, speed, and ability to be disruptive when he was drafted. Lost his way, not sure if it was losing family that had helped to keep him grounded, or just the net effect of NFL $$$, but the stupid was starting to outweigh the investment. The work ethic faded and he left a coach who was trying to create a culture of accountability with few options when disciplinary team actions were not having an effect. He can still be a load to handle, and all the natural ability one could ask for if he could get his s**t together. I don't hate on Darius, and hope he does right the ship - just not against my Bills.

Having worked for companies that constantly re-org I see first hand how organizations can end up in cycles of constant rebuilding. That is not to say that there is not a right time for a fresh Front Office start for some, but this just is not the case for this team which has one side of the ball figured out with a #1 defense, and have found the QB they want to groom and have a slew of draft picks and cap money to spend to help the other side of the ball next year. The McBeane combo is the right solution for a Bills squad that was top-heavy with underachievers with high-salaries. Some players I felt bad about because they were just injury prone, but the team, it's cap, and its drafting was in poor shape - McDermott and Beane knew what they were stepping into, and so did the Pegulas. Surprised that some fans seemed to be so unaware of the situation and what it would take to correct it. I even like the Daboll hire as I think he is usually able to craft a game plan that matches the talent he is given - even if it is chuck full of weak links. Love to see what he can do with a QB who starts to come of age with a few better pieces on the o-line and receiving threats.

won't argue with you there - I am tired of watching our center(s) get pushed into our QB's lap, and I would take another RG too. I like your idea of grabbing a TE prospect as a good TE is a developing QB's best friend.

The Mike Williams thing does stick in my mind, as he was a mistake. The other early 1st round OT McKinnie that the Vikings took the same year struggled for years to meet expectations. I have always felt that it is a pretty risky position to reach for early. Also I think there has been plenty of linemen that Buffalo has taken later in the draft that have developed into good if not very good o-linemen, it is keeping them that has been more the issue. I still have not forgiven Peters (a bizarre project - an undrafted oversized college TE that the Bills and their o-line coach Mouse turned into an all-pro LT) for holding out and letting the team down the last few years of the contract he signed in good faith forcing them to deal him to the Eagles in free agency. All that aside, I would not mind spending a mid-to-later 1st round on the RT from Wisconsin - I think he would provide an immediate upgrade in run blocking and pass protection as that side of the line has been brutal to watch up to the past game with the Jests and linemen out of Wisconsin have not been too shabby.

Was not aware of that draft thread - thanks for the heads-up

I am not one to flame folks or be a troll, and you seem to be pretty passionate about our Bills. Whether I agree with you or not I respect that. My response was more to address the chart of deep pass attempts to completion percentage and assessing the value it provides offenses being able make defenses respect that ability. Not quite ready to shoehorn our rookie QB into that discussion.

Agree on the d-line needs...Shaq has been a pleasant surprise, but with Murphy injured more often than not, and Kyle's age, the Bills are an injury away from losing their ability to rotate guys in, or having to pull up guys from the PS.

I want to argue against this, but I do think that a QB that can hit all the shorter throws can find success in the league. It is a bit deceiving because having a legit deep ball threat (emphasis on threat) can change how defenses play you. They can be less willing to play man and load the box against the run or short underneath routes. The NFL has tweaked the rules so that there is often a good chance you will get a DPI with or without a completion. Not sure if it is something that does not have value if a team has the tools to pull it off enough and teams have to respect and defend against it.

Interesting as just a month ago I was looking and the top half had more than a few O-linemen and WR's... Not a bad thing if those needs we have become lower 1st or 2-3rd round picks - the Bills wont overpay for the gamble.

Yeah... I have expected to see a noticeable decline sooner, but he looked BAD against the Titans. Against our team his scramble for the first down looked like it needed a time lapse camera, and I would swear that some of our young secondary pulled up to avoid killing grandpa Brady. Usually you start to see the good ones slip in the post season...they start getting noodle arm from the toll a season takes to get there. This may be his swan song and it is a bit sad, but I can't shake the feeling that if he was pissed he could still hang 40 on my Bills.

I know right? Was thinking the same thing about all the outrage and disbelief. It's not like we embarrassed the Rams, we embarrassed a team that was very "embarrass-able".

I don't know if RB would be a top need, just my theory but look at the Giants record and where they took Saquon in the draft. Not knocking the kids talent, but behind a bad line, on a team that cannot stretch the field and make you pay for man coverage, even a great back can be kept in check. The reverse is true too, behind a good line on a team that can stretch the field, even an average RB can look great. No idea what free agency will look like, but the pundits are saying the draft is deep for WR and O-Line so I would like to see an impact WR taken early. I am not big on taking linemen early in the 1st rd (still have nightmares of Mike Williams eating his way off the Bills roster and out of the league), but if there is a really good road-grader o-lineman later that can man either RG or RT spots grab-em as both of those could use upgrades/depth. I am meh on our current roster of centers, and would not mind the Bills picking up a decent TE prospect or savvy vet if one is out there. Colts GM Ballard and Reich got a steal plucking Eric Ebron from Detroit and teaming him with Luck - results speak for themselves. I am pretty much over Clay - the guy has mad skills when on the field, just hurt as often as he plays and it seems like every season. Depth at DB, and depth for DL...not getting the warm fuzzies that Trent Murphy can stay healthy and contribute and I know that Kyle is a competitor to his core, he is not getting any younger.

It is the brutal nature of professional sports, and there is always a chance that an injury could show a player the exit door too. Was at a football development camp 4-5 years ago (maybe 6 years...old guy memory issues) for kids in South Chicago where Lavar Arrington spoke to them about how it felt when he ruptured his achilles tendon in his last game with the Giants and knew it was over, how he remembered the smells and sounds, remembered Terrell Owens telling him he would be fine and wanting him to just shut up (real ring of truth there). His point to the kids was that there is life after football, to stay in school, learn about business and investing, etc... He spoke about enjoying his career working in broadcasting, and his startup ventures - I thought he was a great speaker who left those kids with a great message. He didn't crush their hopes, but kept it real. The odds are really slim that you will get into a D1 school and play, or from there make it to the NFL, and even if you beat the odds and make it, most professional athletes do not have long careers. His point was there is more to life than playing the game, that they should have a plan for life (hopefully one they can be content living) after their time playing the sport is over as it ends for every player and could happen at any time.

Fair enough - we are probably splitting hairs on this topic. The thing that stood out for me with Vick (other than the illegal dog fight affair) was how quick his release was on those long throws (often on the run) - it seemed like it was just a snap of the wrist. I have seen Josh rifle it on a rope on some of his mid-range throws and if anything the coaches probably want him to take some of the heat off those throws and throw "catchable" balls to a spot where the receiver will be open against certain coverages vs bullets to where the receiver is at the moment. Some of that is more his maturity and growth, understanding where his open guy will be based on the coverage he is seeing, and then getting the ball there on time. The game just needs to slow down a bit for him and that will only happen with playing time. That being said, they need to keep him upright and out of the emergency room or concussion protocol while he learns the ropes.

So.... how many highlights were you actually expecting from your rookie QB out of Wyoming behind that o-line of misfit castoffs throwing to practice squad receivers and Kelvin?

Yeah - the way he locks on and sticks with his block I could see that.......sans all the "off with his dad's head" business, and being completely bat-***** crazy.

That helmet shot to the head looked pretty deliberate...if it was a QB taking that shot it would make the evening news. Luckily it seemed Teller had a split second to see it coming and was able to roll with the hit a bit. Not feeling too sorry for Jet's Bashum when Teller landed with his knee in his ribs. Miller did get rolled from behind. It is tough for O-Linemen when those bodies start flying around behind your legs.

Ah...man, perfect. I needed a good laugh tonight.

Josh has also shown a lot of hesitation in his throws and that factors into those passes not connecting either. I am hoping that he gets the comfort level to pull the trigger right when he needs to vs that bit of uncertainty that I think throws off the timing and results in the receiver running the route deeper than the throw. Only time will tell, but the front office has to make the o-line a priority - could use 2-3 upgrades. I am still not quite sold on either of our center(s), but I thought that Wood struggled his first few years so maybe just a normal learning curve. I am not big on either starters on the right side in pass pro, or opening running lanes. I have seen too many promising rookie QBs damaged beyond repair behind poor lines so hope this is a priority next year. Wouldn't mind them picking up a good TE too, Clay is hurt as often as he plays and a young QB needs a good TE.