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Milano also left early along with Dorian Williams. Sorry I shouldn't have come across so aggressive but this game both offenses were peak of their power and I would expect both said what Goff & Johnson did because they were that good. The Rams game the week earlier bothered me wayyyy more because the defense was not nearly as maligned and the Rams in the week prior and after scored a combined 33 pts. As much as I am a big believer in the Rams that was just an abysmal job by our D and the flaws came out that they were not nearly as good as the stats showed (which given a reset year wasn't the end of the world).

Did your memory blackout that game? The Bills and Lions defenses both were banged up and starting second & third stringers by the end of this game all over the place. With the power both offenses have they took advantage of the injuries tenfold.

Appreciate that. Outside of 2015 I would say 2012 was by far the hardest season fandom for most Bills fans. Even the hardest Bills critics like Jerry Sullivan of the Buffalo News predicted them in the playoffs as the offense was pretty good the year prior and the defense added Mario, Gilmore, Bradham, & Mark Anderson along with Dareus in year 2. The schedule looked decent enough and the good vibes with Fitz still existed. The Titans game before the bye broke me that season. The Titans were not a good team themselves (went 6-10) and Chris Johnson just ran all over the defense you had high hopes for. Even so they had the lead late and could've went into the bye at 4-3 with some very winnable games down the stretch so playoffs were still very real. Then Fitz Fitz'd, the defense wilted badly and to me it was over with Gailey. At that point I felt between Coach QB & GM it just wasn't there and it was gonna be another reset.

Respectfully I think your wrong. The NFLPA functions to protect all players and salaries have constantly risen for a long time know for all. The rookie wage scale hurt the younger players but helped the older ones. The biggest thing which is the NFLPA's own fault is the additional games they have allowed. If you are adding games 17 and unfortunately soon 18 it seems how do you not start building in mandatory rest period before thursday games, travel rules, etc.. things to help with player recovery. One of the things most sports leagues have wised up to is how harmful work stoppages are. The MLB is the cautionary tale of being King and then throwing yourself off the thrown. At the end of the day fans either hate both parties or end up backing the owners over the players. The 2012 ref strike showed how bad it can get if things go unresolved and fans were furious to the point the Fail Mary single handedly altered the negotiation. To me the thing the NFL has to be really careful with is the streaming part. The ability to watch the best games in the NFL without paying allows the NFL in my opinion to stay king. If they ever touch those CBS/FOX/NBC packages that people watch without needing to pay for I think they may overdo what they have and it won't be reversable.

My fandom steadily grew as I got older and once I started dating my wife who is bigger fan then me (I am huge fan shes just better fan wise) it took off in 2009 lol. My brother and I look back at how delusional we probably were in years like 2011 before the season started that the team was a playoff team. The NFL truly does sell hope better than any other sport. Also because the drought by 2010 was long you kinda felt like you were due to back in at some point which didn't help drinking the koolaid. I will say years like 2011/2012/2015/2016 where they started 5-2 or 4-3 etc once they were out of it minus completely wild mathematics I def checked out on the season. The 2010 offseason may have been the most depressing just because the Bills were so out in the wilderness and you couldn't pay a decent name to come here. Buddy Nix saying "we got the guy we wanted" when guys like Cowher & Mike Shanahan wouldn't even take an interview was awful. Add on the teams future was so murky long term and the upcoming stadium lease was a major question... yea it was tough to get pumped for that year. My wife and I still went to a preseason game and three regular season games, but that was legit partly to tailgate and walking in at 1pm minus the home opener was a borderline ritual for most fans as the season went on haha. I think 2016 probably was worst though for me at end of season because the hype train failed badly, the defense was wrecked (Rexed), the big name coach you had hoped would at least get a playoff berth instead made it worse. I remember heading into 2017 knowing good players like Mario, Robert Woods, etc were leaving just felt like will this thing ever turn around and here comes another rebuild. It was the irony of ironies that the drought died in 2017 because just about everyone predicting that year had the Bills near the basement and I distinctly remember week 1 be billed nationally as the toilet bowl between the Jets & Bills as no one was even sure they would win more than a game or two apiece. We do a massive Bills party week 1 yearly (since 2013) and that was the most relaxed easy going viewing ever because expectations were so low lol.

Good points. I am not sour on the Chiefs O as I think between Mahomes Reid & their skill guys they have plenty to go. But the leftside with both LT & LG I think will be the great differentiator on their season. Ironically the Chiefs offense could be much better but the teams overall record a few games worse. They went 10-0 in one score games including one OT win, the toe touch no TD vs BAL, missed FG by DEN, CIN game last FG, and the second Raiders game. Law of averages is real with this stuff and even at 7-3 they would've finished 12-5 by comparison.

Not enough has been said about KC trading Thuney when their O-line was already shaky. If there is one thing that I think slows their offense way more its the O-line not being nearly as good as it has been in prior years.

Beane has brought up that after the QB gets paid it is very difficult to have every spot filled to perfection. The 2020-22 still benefitted from Josh on a rookie contract at that time. Unfortunately injuries in 21/22 robbed the Bills on defense of some important guys which happens and also sucks. Of the teams from 23-25 on paper this is without a doubt the best roster of those ... again on paper. The strength of the offense beside 17 is the O-line which is Top 5 and they have some truly good players in Cook & Shakir that help for sure. A WR or two emerging or Kincaid will help to make the offense more dynamic, fingers crossed Palmer does what projections show. But the big question is WR heading into the season which to me until an answer shows makes it hard to see them improved over last year. I doubt we ever see Josh with a WR group like 2020-2022 as the NFL had changed also with more an emphasis on the run and the 2 safety shell high. Additionally he is so good and helps the WRs that you can get away with lesser talent .. a la Brady in NE. I don't fully agree with this as they wasted 2023/24 draft to double dip at WR and we only got Coleman, but again with Josh no longer on rookie contract this is life. On defense the D-line is probably the deepest yet, LBs are solid, and CB is decent especially at CB1/NCB. I am really hoping Bishop is something solid at safety because when Rapp was gone SAF was real safety. CB2 having a true solution whether it be Maxwell or Tre would be big to real up the floor of the secondary. So again while not perfect as there are areas you wish you had a few more solutions, they have plenty of good impact guys that give a really solid roster now. I hate looking back and saying "if only" but 21/22 for different reasons give that feeling given how the roster was.

Agreed. I still think his contract is too high for the production given, but he is very integral to the offense.

I would put the position up to 23 (or argue around that high). Cook is a legit Pro Bowler, Shakir's numbers have shown him to be a top 3 slot guy by advance measures, and TE wise Knox/Kincaid are around 20th league wide as a combo IMO. I do not disagree on the rest of the thoughts on the WR corp, BUF is betting Coleman/Palmer/Samuel one, two, heck all of them have very good seasons. If they do then the overall skill group is close to top 10 at that point. I am high on Palmer being a legit guy this year and basically replacing Hollins/Coopers production combine, but the other two I honestly have no idea what to think. Luckily for Buffalo they not only have 17, but the O-line is top 5 and Brady is a wizard as an OC. The offense season has a truly higher ceiling if Kincaid or Coleman turn into something, otherwise they are similar to last year (which is still really good). One thing I do hate about these rankings is so much is based on past production and not the future so it always feels a bit fruitless in a way.

The D line is better then 2022. The key with the D line is a guy or two emerging into a game changer, they have a lot a lot of good close to great players but not great or game changer. CB if someone emerges at the CB2 spot changes that into a huge strength. Safety to me is the biggest question mark on the roster even more than WR at this point. Rapp was decent when he played, otherwise it was a true weakness last year.

That is where I am. Probably the best roster overall they have had since Josh and the schedule is favorable even with some tough home matchups. KC is not as good while still scary and the AFC North is tough as hell even if BAL is a beast. It is kind of now or never.

Well if you have Allen, Lamar, Mahomes or you PHI with Hurts and that roster how is that wrong? Honestly that should be the expectation given the rosters they have and caliber of QB play. Once you hit the divisional round/title games your talking about slim margins between winning and losing so you have to be realistic with that. But if I was a fan of any four of those teams my expectation should be SB title optimistically. Again CIN is weird because Burrow and the offense is elite, but the defense was so bad (and this hasn't been a banner offseason of improvement) that it weighs down what they do. It is a quasi Manning Colts situation there, except IND at least spend real money and resources whereas CIN is fighting with their best pass rusher and their 1st round pick who also is a talented rusher over contract language sooo yeaaaa

I appreciate that. This is more expectation wise what feels optimistic vs realistic. If you look at the last 20 years since QBs got more protected and rules favored offenses typically your top 10 QBs rotate in the SB, if you don't have that you need a Bo Nix or Daniels ascension from a rookie or 2nd year guy to change the expectation from realistically playoffs to SB or bust. If I told you the next 5 years you had Allen, Lamar, & Burrow against the field to make at least one SB I think you would take those 3 against the field. Good QBs tend to have good and consistent results team wise. Also any team with a title game appearance does not mean a loss as much as they at least get there. I actually am really high on Green Bay but Love needs to take that step from really good to elite. I think he can and if he does the optimistic view becomes realistic in my eyes. That is basically the fulcrum point I am viewing things through if you don't have an elite guy passing. Cincy is weird because Burrow is absolutely elite, but I don't trust the defense enough to be a 1 seed even if they are a playoff team.... BUT Burrow absolutely is good enough to go hot like Rodgers in 2011 on his own so even though my realistic expectation is less then title game they absolutely are a threat.

I said the Ravens SB win and Eagles also. If realistic is the outcome my liver is toast lol

Lol win with mvp vs make SB and see what happens

As we are in the last quite part of the football year before it cranks up I wanted to do a fun thread based on a podcast I am listening to. Albert Breer & Connor Orr (both from SI) are going division by division with a optimistic season outlook and then a more realistic expectation for every team. It is a great listen if you do podcasts and I recommend it. But I did my own version for all 32 teams with a brief snippet for an optimistic look for each team vs a more grounded expectation. Let me know your thoughts or predictions! 1. Atlanta Optimistic: They win their division and make a surprise NFC title game appearance Realistic: Penix looks for real, the offense is dynamic for 17 games, and the playoffs are win and get in week 18 2. Arizona Optimistic: Surprise division title as the offense is electric throughout and Murray has his best season yet as a darkhorse MVP candidate Realistic: The Cardinals are playing meaningful games come December near a playoff spot and Murray/the offense doesn’t fade at the end 3. Baltimore Optimistic: Superbowl appearance with MVP season from Lamar Realistic: AFC title game at home as they win a tough AFC North 4. Buffalo Optimistic: Superbowl win with another MVP from Josh Realistic: Finally make it back to the Superbowl 5. Carolina Optimistic: Surprise playoff berth against a favorable schedule as Bryce Young puts together a solid year and the defense is better than expected Realistic: 6. Chicago Optimistic: Ben Johnson has the offense playing Banana’s at Caleb Williams looks like a top 10 QB and the Bears make the playoffs at 10-7 Realistic: Caleb Williams looks like a top 15 QB, the offense is consistently decent to good, and the Bears have some meaningful games in December while finishing 8-9 7. Cincinnati Optimistic: Win the AFC North as the offense is super good again and the defense is enough to win with and win a playoff game to get back to the AFC Divisional round Realistic: Make the playoffs as Burrow is really good and the defense is not as bad this time around showing some new foundational pieces. In the playoffs terrify whoever they play that Burrow single handedly can go on a run. 8. Cleveland Optimistic: Sanders or Gabriel emerge as a legitimate starting QB they can build around for the future and the defense solidifies into a top 5 unit as the youth from the draft emerge quickly with the players they already have Realistic: The defense is in the upper half of the league but is wasted as the offense cannot do much and they go 3-14 but miss out on the top draft pick (NOLA gets it) 9. Dallas Optimistic: The offense explodes on all cylinders with a top 5 year and leads the Cowboys back to the playoffs where they win a game Realistic: The Cowboys are in the playoff hunt throughout as the offense is better but the past injuries to Dak catch up and lack of talent overall holds the team back as they finish 8-9 with more questions than answers 10. Denver Optimistic: Bo takes a step forward to be a top 12 QB mixed with a great defense and they finally knockout KC for the division crown before making a run to the AFC title game Realistic: Bo takes enough of a step forward mixed with a great defense and favorable schedule to nip KC for the division crown and they win a playoff game. 11. Detroit Optimistic: Despite losing both coordinators and some talent, the Lions still win a competitive division and make it back to the NFC title Realistic: The Lions make the playoffs and win a playoff game, despite not winning the division and the offense taking a small step back 12. Green Bay Optimistic: Jordan Love has his most complete season and emerges as an MVP candidate while leading the Packers to the 1 seed and NFC title game Realistic: The Packers win the division, Love emerges into the top 10 QB group, and the Packers win a playoff game 13. Houston Optimistic: The defense is the best in the league, Stoud jump back into the top 10 QB wise as the offense is dangerous, and they make the AFC title Realistic: The Texans defense is top 5 again and lead them to another division crown while Stroud is a bit more steady throughout and they win another playoff game at home 14. Indianapolis Optimistic: They make the playoffs with a surprise division crown as Jones has a season like 2022 where he lets Taylor do the running and compliments it nicely Realistic: The Colts play meaningful games in December as Jones is solid enough to keep them a float before missing out on the playoffs at 8-9 come seasons end 15. Jacksonville Optimistic: New talent & new coaching unlock Trevor Lawrence into his best form as the offense becomes top 10 in the league and win the division crown Realistic: Trevor finds stable footing with the new coaching staff and the Jags are in the playoff race right to seasons end as Travis Hunter is the real deal on both sides of the ball 16. Kansas City Optimistic: AFC title game at home rinse and repeat Realistic: They finally don’t win the division as the AFC West presents a big enough challenge mixed with talent lost and years of playoff games take their toll on the roster. It is a playoff year instead of division championship year. They still make the AFC divisional round and show they won’t fall without a fight. 17. LA Rams Optimistic: They make the SB after getting the NFC 1 seed with the offense being top 5 and the defense rising near the top 10. Realistic: They win the division and win a playoff game again showing they are an incredibly formidable team. 18. LA Chargers Optimistic: The Chargers finally put it all together and reach the hype analysts constantly give with a division crown and Herbert being an MVP candidate. They win a playoff game and make to the divisional round for the first time since 2017 Realistic: The Chargers are in the wildcard mix all season but miss at 9-8 as the division improvement keeps the Chargers back. 19. Las Vegas Raiders Optimistic: Geno is as solid as he was in Seattle mixed with Jeanty at RB lead a Raider offense that can go toe to toe with anyone and they make a wildcard appearance. Realistic: The Raiders week are still in the playoff hunt in mid December as the offense has some teeth and the defense is stout thanks to Carroll shaping them up 20. Miami Optimistic: Tua is healthy and good for the year leading the Dolphins to a wildcard spot as the offense is still quite potent enough to score in bunches. The defense is not a full sieve. Realistic: The Dolphins finish 7-10 as they lack the talent to compete on defense and the offense is good against bad-average teams but fails to carry the load against top teams. Tua plays in 15 of 17 games but sticks as a middle of the road QB (decent but not great). 21. Minnesota Optimistic: JJ lets the weapons do the work and has a very solid rookie season as the offense stays in the top 10, the Vikings win the division, and win a playoff game Realistic: JJ has some ups and downs, but the Vikings are still in the playoff race come the final two weeks as the offense is still in the top half of the league 22. New England Optimistic: Drake Maye takes a big next step turning into a top 15 QB, the offense is top 10 rushing, and mixed with an improved defense they make a wildcard appearance Realistic: Drake Maye takes a strong step forward and the offense moves to middle of the road. The defense is able to complimentary ball and mixed with Vrabels coaching the Patriots are in the playoff hunt in late December before falling short at 8-9 23. New Orleans Optimistic: rookie QB Tyler Shough looks like a QB you can build the future with and the offense is able to do some things and they are in most games finishing 5-12 with some young building blocks Realistic: The years of pushing the cap down the road catch up as the Saints go 2-15 as the offense is putrid, Shough looks like a rookie QB, and the Saints march to their worst season in decades but get the #1 pick 24. New York Giants Optimistic: The lines both solidify and become a strength for the team as their RBs combine for 2000 yards again from the line of scrimmage and the defense is terror on the d-line. Dart takes over with 4 games to go and looks ok as they finish 7-10 with many building blocks to work with. Realistic: The defense does round into form allowing the Giants to stay in games but the offense lacks the talent to do enough while the QB play is erratic forcing Dart in much sooner and he is overwhelmed. They finish 5-12 with questions continuing on the offense and QBs future. 25. New York Jets Optimistic: The Jets rushing attack is dynamic as they mix Fields in and end the year top 5 running the ball. The defense reverts back to a more solid form with Glenn as head coach and with good complimentary ball the Jets are in the playoff hunt come mid December before finishing 8-9. Realistic: Glenn stabilizes the foundation of the team as young players emerge and pieces like Sauces & Wilson restore their footing. They still finish 6-11 as they need talent and QB, but it is a much quieter season and it feels like something is being built for the long term again with the defense finishing in the top 10. 26. Philadelphia Optimistic: Another Super Bowl win and 1 seed Realistic: NFC title game appearance and division crown 27. Pittsburgh Optimistic: Rodgers shuts up and gives top 15 level QB play as the offense finally can attack a bit vertically while the defense is good as always ending with a division crown and AFC title game appearance. Realistic: The offense is decent as Rodgers is steady and the defense is good like always, but the best they can do is a wildcard appearance and loss in a tough close game. 28. San Francisco Optimistic: The 49ers heal up across the board on the way to a division crown and NFC title appearance. Purdy looks worth the money providing really solid QB play and young pieces like Ricky Pearsall (WR) come into their own. The defense rounds into shape with Saleh back at DC also. Realistic: The 49ers get back in the playoffs as health stabilizes the ship, but it isn’t smooth sailing and requires a week 18 win to get back in the dance. Purdy is solid but more Tua then Burrow at QB and can’t lead a comeback drive in the playoffs as the 49ers fall wildcard weekend. 29. Seattle Optimistic: Sam Darnold is not a pumpkin and plays at a very high level as Smith-Njigba becomes a true #1 WR and Kupp is healthy allowing for a top 10 passing attack that brings Seattle back to the playoffs. Realistic: Darnold is more average then good as the Seahawks offense can’t compliment a decent defense and Seattle is out of the playoff race by mid December. 30. Tampa Bay Optimistic: Baker & the offense stay dynamic, Bowles defense is sound, and the Bucs win another division crown and then make the NFC title game. Realistic: The Bucs don’t have to comeback from a 3-5 start to win the division, but they still need a week 18 win to get the division crown. 31. Tennessee Optimistic: Cam Ward looks like a future stud as the back half he has some big games passing and the offense is able to do some things finishing middle of the road and staying in more games then people think. Realistic: The offense has too many aging parts to help Ward, he gets beat up, and they lose a lot of weeks 27-13 with more questions on the roster then answers at seasons end outside of the QB position. 32. Washington Optimistic: They steal the division from PHI and make it back to the NFC title game again. Realistic: They make the playoffs as a wild card going 10-7 as some bounces don’t go their way this year and they have to grind for more wins. No worry as Daniels has a big week 18 win to clinch a wildcard and delivers another playoff win the next week.

A lot of us thought the Bears would've been a playoff team and Caleb the stud like Jaylen year 1. They have been winning the offseason for years yet come the bright lights failing.

thanks fun police lol

Hell Baker in playoff games has been really solid too. Dalton never has had one game as good as what Baker has done postseason.

Hey now nailed these three!: -Jayden Daniels wins ROTY even though WSH goes 7-10 -Titans end up with 1st overall pick going 2-15 as the 2020 All Madden team shows its age and Levis is too much a loose cannon -Shakir leads the team with 94 receptions and 1173 yards

Not surprised. The Bills d-line is loaded with B to B+ level players after this offseason. The hope was they coulda got a guy like Garrett Crosby or Hendrickson and I really think their counting on Bosa to be that, but regardless they have a very solid group across the board. The real question is if it can finally be a difference maker in the post season when it matters.

Yep. Really liked Cam as a QB and was a shame he got hurt. Had a HOF career going until then.

Having my boys 6/3 years old camp is amazing for them. I always enjoyed camp before as it is really unique and one of the very few free things you can see your team at, but their energy for the kids stuff and being their makes it wayyyy more fun now.

Nighthawks sale has been happening for a while. He bought the team to keep it going until a new owner could be found. The goal was never to keep it long term. Sabres I think at some point he gets a minority owner with cash, but it is his baby for better or normally worse. Bills/Bandits are cash cows they aren't going anywhere.