Alphadawg7

Nothing wrong with your response here or really anyone elses, I know I am going a bit out on a limb, but its honestly my gut feeling right now. And that can certainly change, I made this post based on my expectation on what I think Beane is going to bring in at WR. Couple counter thoughts on some of your points. Zays production: The reality is, someone has to catch the ball. If you are good enough to make the NFL, and play enough snaps, youre going to have some level of production especially since he started the whole season. And you can argue an UDFA rookie who got cut came back and surpassed him as the better reciever in the 2nd half of the season. Also, Zay gets a LOT of production when the coverage breaks down and Allen is scrambling. If our WR's were winning on their routes more, Allen would have options early and not have to scramble as much to buy time. We need WR's that get open on their initial route, not just after coverage breaks down when Allen is improvising. Duke and your CFL player comment: Honestly, I would normally agree with you here. However, Duke is not your "normal" CFL case. He did not wind up in the CFL because of a lack of talent or the inability to play in the NFL. Talent has never been the issue, he made off field mistakes that took those opportunities away. He went to the CFL to mature (which he apparently did) and earn his shot in the NFL where he was the leagues best WR. He is young, matured, and hungry to prove he belongs, I would not under estimate his ability to make this team. Lot of people here didnt think much of Cameron Wake going to Miami, while some of us really wanted him and thought he had a ton of potential. I have nothing against Zay and would LOVE him to prove to be a good WR and make this team. But its a numbers game, and Zay has NOT made the most of his opportunities. End of the day, its a numbers game. Most WRs they will keep is 6, and that 6th will certainly be a big ST contributor. And they may only keep 5. With Foster, Zay and Duke already here, and a likely ST guy we are at 4. Adding 2 two more guys puts us at 6. So for me, I think if Zay is falling to 4th or lower on the depth chart, Beane will try and trade him before his value drops lower sitting on our bench for a season. And I think Zay is going to fall to at least 4th once we get into camp and preseason some and he could be a late trade like AJM was.

Dont forget Duke...he has a real shot to both make this team and play a relevant role. Talent was never his issue.

Again, just to clarify I said traded, not cut.

I said traded, not cut. And being 23 in not relevant given we already have young players in foster, duke and any rookies we draft.

True, however they did cut KB even though they spent a 3rd on him and he they could have let him walk a handful of weeks later if they were concerened with how cutting him would look. So I do think McD and Beane will put the team first over looking wrong. True but we didn’t add a high level free agent or draft pick to challenge him for his roster spot. We are likely adding a WR early in draft, and could add a total of 2 to 3 more to go with duke also competing. So Shaq wasn’t staring down the barrel of the same threat to his spot as Zay will be

Thats actually a valid point. Still would be nice when Bills are the cream of the crop for the next decade behind McD and Allen though

Ok, I only responded to the one post. I agree that he was not totally inept or completely unreliable, I mean he did have some good games and was always a good blocker. However, I was disputing you saying he "outperformed" on a bad passing team when he was also a cog of that bad passing team. His numbers here were on par with his career, and he was a guy who got paid to be top 3 at this position and yet played well below that level.

I could be wrong, but this is just what I believe based on the additions I expect Beane to make in the WR room. I have no issues if others don't agree, just my opinion on the matter, nothing more. I have consistently said this all off season, and McDermott just said something again that enforces that belief. I think they see how the Rams cleared out their WR room and so did the Bears and in both cases their young QB's took big strides as passers. Eagles did the same for Wentz too. "We're looking for guys that can get open and catch the ball." Yes, that is an obvious trait for any WR, but also its telling that he and Beane keep making these comments given the struggles all year, including Zay, to do these very basic things. I think the WR room will be crowded once free agency and the draft is over (likely 2 to 3 additions) and Zay is going to be someone who has to really impress in camp to make this roster. Right now, there is not one part of being a wide receiver that Zay does particularly well outside of his reported good work ethic. Hands: Struggles catching the ball. Makes easy catches look hard and drops too many passes. Separation: Has struggled to get separation, especially playing on the outside. Route Running: Part of his issue with getting separation is his inconsistent route running. Speed: He has average speed. He is fast enough to play in the league, but to be consistent with his speed he needs to be a good route runner. Physicality: He is easily man handled by physical corners. Games like the Lions and Pats this year he was dominated physically for example. Contested Catches: One of the weakest part of his game. Catch Radius: Very limited mostly due to his inconsistent hands and lack of physicality. Foster: Penciled in as a projected #2 WR. However, if we bring in a potential starter in FA and also draft one early, then Foster is no lock for #2 and could be used more out of the slot or as a deep threat. Additionally, if we draft say Metcalf or make a splashy trade for someone like Brown (less likely), then Duke could make a real challenge for #2 as a big catch radius compliment to a #1 who poses a real deep threat opposite him. Duke: He has to prove himself in the NFL, I get that. But if we take an honest assessment of him, his issues were never talent related. He isn't a speed burner, but he has a big catch radius, runs good routes, and has great hands. He could legit compete for the #2 opposite a big play #1. Even if not a #2, its more than reasonable he has a legit shot to make this team and compete for minutes. Zay: Best suited for the slot, however his lack of consistent hands and his issues with separation make his spot there vulnerable. If our top 2 WR's this next season dont include Foster, then I can easily see Foster challenging to play in the slot, and he already has surpassed Zay. We are adding at least 2 additonal WR's (and maybe 3) this offseason expected to start or compete to start to go along with the 3 guys already here. With McD and Beanes consistent comments about getting open and catching the ball, I think Zay is in trouble and will be a training camp or preseason trade for a 4th round or conditional 5th round pick.

This is a gross exaggeration. Clay was a mediocre TE while being paid as if the best. He underachieved and its not really debatable. His career numbers are very consistent. More importantly, I have watched too many passes bounce of his hands, literally hit him in the back not looking for passes, run sloppy and lazy engaged routes when not involved enough, etc. He was a decent TE whose focus and regular engagement waned over his time here. Lets not over exaggerate his performance.

He is one of my top priority additions personally.

I would but it would probably prove my estimate of half the board way low haha

This. Times a million. I want to dismantle the Pats on the football field. Not because Kraft got the same service half the dudes on this board have used at some point. PS: This isn’t likely going to affect the Pats football record, it’s a misdemeanor off field incident with a non player that has nothing to do with the team or game of football.

Huh? Rich people getting away with illegal things? First, most the people visiting rub and tugs aren’t rich, so this has nothing to do with “rich people”. Second this is just a misdemeanor offense and not a big deal. The “rich” guy didn’t get away with it, he got charged. So your statement seems flawed considering he’s rich and is one of the very few who use them regularly who didn’t get away with it.

Never thought I would see a 50 page thread on here about a dude getting a rub and tug. Really cant fathom what could still be getting discussed to drive this to 50 pages already.

I cant see anyone trading a 2nd for a guy with injury history and 22 career catches in 2 NFL seasons. I think a 3rd is possible, but more likely a 4th. I am fine with using one of our 4ths on him. Wont like using a 3rd, and would hate using our 2nd on him.

I would LOVE to draft Hockenson, but if the Bills sign James, I think that removes the chance they will take a TE so high in the first. Also, I don't think they will sign Tyrell, and may not sign any FA WR given the depth in the draft. If we do, I like Humphries, but for this mock I am going to assume they dont add a notable one in FA. I also don't think the Redskins will pay both a 2nd and 3rd in that trade down, and will likely just net us their first 2 picks. So I am going to mock our draft assuming we get the Skins first 2 picks only. #15 - Metcalf - WR - Big, Fast, and true #1 potential. #40 - Dalton Risner - OL - This guys seems like he was born to play for the Bills like Kyle. Nasty streak. #46 - Oshane Ximines - EDGE - He will be one of the best pass rushers to come out of this draft. #74 - Devin Singletary - RB - Called a McCoy clone, perfect RB to bring in to play along side McCoy to eventually succeed him this year or next. #112 - Andy Isabella - WR (or trade this pick to Bengals for J. ROSS) #131 - Josh Oliver - TE - Gives us twin towers at TE in James and Oliver. Oliver is dangerous as a receiver and not as polished as a blocker. James on the other hand is also a receiving threat, but a very good pass and run blocker. Having these two would give Allen both blocking help and twin tower receiving threats. I am drooling at this possibility. We have veteran help in FA on the OL and a promising rookie to protect Allen. Metcalf starts as #1 WR, let Duke and Foster battle for #2 spot (I think Duke has the potential to be an excellent compliment to Metcalf). Zay and Isabella (or Ross) can battle for slot. We got the twin towers at TE in James and rookie Oliver, who both are dangerous receivers, especially Oliver. James starts at TE given he is also an excellent blocker in both pass and run game. Oliver is used mostly as a recieving weapon. McCoy can mentor the guy in the draft most often compared to him in Singletary where they split time and maybe even see Devin overtake McCoy at some point this year and succeed him officially in year 2. We also add what I believe will be one of the premiere pass rushers to come out of this draft in Ximines. BOOM Playoffs. I should GM this draft.

I would be into kicking the tires on a trade, but: Better WRs have been traded for less than the 3rd round pick you suggested. While its not out of the question he could fetch a 3rd, I think its more likely a late 3rd or 4th that can nab him. I mean he has 22 catches in his 2 year career. Bengals are rebuilding and AJ is aging, so why would they want to give up on their first round pick from 2 years ago who has barely seen the field so far? My guess is he is too one dimensional, otherwise he should be seen as a key future building block as AJ enters his twilight years. Not to mention, AJ has dealt with his own slew of injuries. This is a deep WR class, so I think the Bills top 10 3rd round pick is too rich for him. There will be some nice WR and RB options on the board there for us. And if we nab a WR in first 2 rounds, I think that 3rd would be better used on one of the talented RB prospects. Not to mention someone like Marquise Brown could fall to our pick in the 3rd too. My offer would be one of our 4th round picks if I am the Bills. I dont think I would pay more than that.

Yeah I agree with you. I am still doubtful it happens, at least as we sit here today. We will see how much more AZ love of Murray buzz surfaces as we keep moving through the offseason. But lets pretend they are intent on taking Murray, the question then becomes do you let Murray and Rosen battle it out like the Cowboys did with #1 pick Aikman and then taking Walsh the same year in the first round of the supplemental draft. Or would they try and get some value back out of Rosen while he still has some (he wont have as much if beaten out by Murray) and trade him before the draft? I could see teams like Chargers, Broncos, Pats, Saints, etc maybe grabbing him to groom another year or two behind aging accomplished vets. Or a more needy team now like Titans, Redskins, Jags, Mia, Giants, etc could make a move if they think he is better than what they could get in the draft this year once Murray is off the board. Rosen/Murray saga will be interesting to monitor if it starts to gain some steam.

The issue though is that they will likely have to get higher than us to get Haskins with multiple teams looking at a possible QB. Murray could even go to AZ (I personally doubt it, but never know) or Raiders (Still think they could explore trading Carr). If that happened then I doubt Haskins would get past both Giants at 6 or Jags at 7. Really, Murray is the key to where Haskins goes, but even if Murray lasts until the 6th pick, both him and Haskins could go 6 and 7 in no particular order. So, while I can buy the Titans interest, I am pretty sure our pick will be too late as I do expect both guys to be gone by the 9th pick.

Deja Vu...this thread was already done like a month ago. Its pretty simple and somehow fans always misunderstand it. BPA is not Kipers list of BPA or some other mock drafters. Every team makes a big board of all the players in the draft and ranks them. This is to understand how the draft may unfold and who might go where, who might want to trade up or down, etc. But a team has their OWN big board and they have it ranked BPA and the team needs, positions of interest, etc are all factored into that. For example, KC is not going to have ANY of the QBs on their personal early round draft board, and neither will the Bills. Fans take this BPA way too literal, and I never understood why. Clearly a team is going to draft based on what positions they need to upgrade. If they have two elite corners, they are not going to draft a corner even if thats the BPA on their overall board. Just like the Giants will have no RB's on their early draft strategy board. So all I can say is people need to stop fixating on BPA as if its a mystery to figure out. When Beane says BPA he is talking about the top guy on THEIR draft board, not the overall draft board. And again, their board already factors in things like what positions, which position is a higher priority, etc. And some guys on their board will be ones they covet and are targeting and thats when draft trades happen, to find a way to go get the guy they really want.

You are right, its a very real concern. Metcalf has the monster wow combine people are expecting, he could go as high as #3 to Jets if they believe he could be a massive weapon for Darnold. The top 8 in front of us is hard to predict before the combine right now, especially with QB questions. The are 4 teams that could take a QB, which 2 of them should. AZ - Do they really take Murray? Doubt it, but you never know. And if they did, would they keep or trade Rosen? Maybe send him to Giants, Fins, or Jags? Raiders - Talk they could draft a QB and trade Carr somewhere...maybe Giants, Dolphins, or Jags? Giants - They kind of have to take a QB IMO. But what it they trade for Carr or Rosen? Jags - Will there still be a QB they really believe in at 7 or will they focus on a vet (Carr, Rosen, or a FA) and look to draft a QB next year? How the free agency period and potential trade windows heading into the draft at QB plays out is going to be instrumental in figuring out the top 8. Jags land a veteran QB, they could easily look to draft offensive weapons instead of a QB for example. If Raiders stick with Carr, its no lock Gruden goes defense at 4 and could draft someone like Metcalf given he is an offensive guy and just sent off Mack like he didnt really care if he was a Raider or not. Going to be an interesting combine and FA period for sure. Im not saying he is, just saying I do not think the odds are 0%.

Thats not really accurate though given there is talk he could go in the top 8 right now. Top 10 is defensive heavy, but not every team needs defensive help over offensive help. Teams like Lions and Jags have good defenses and desperately need offensive help. And if guys like Hockenson and Metcalf go to the combine and blow people away, then both those teams at 7 and 8 could be hot on either or both those guys. Jags interest will likely come down to whether or not there is a QB they really feel good about there or if they decide to get a veteran and then wait til next year to draft a QB. I personally still think they will go QB right now though. FA will be telling to their plans though at the draft. Don't underestimate the rise of the TE in recent years. A dynamic TE is almost unguardable and teams have taken notice. Guys like Kelce, Kittle, Ertz, Howard, Ebron, etc have put teams on notice that the TE has gone from being a luxury to a focal point. Gone are the days of just 2 or 3 premiere TEs around the league, and more and more teams are investing heavy in this position. Personally, Hockenson and Metcalf are the two guys I want the most right now and I hope at least one is still on the board when we pick at 9 or after a trade down.

I would absolutely love Hockenson or Metcalf and I wont be mad at either guys being chosen at #9. I still hope we can trade back a few spots between 10 and 15 as I think we could still get a premium pick there and maybe even Hockenson or Metcalf still. Although there is talk both could go top 10, especially Metcalf if he has the combine people are expecting.

It wont change their amazing lives, but its still fun for the rest of us to enjoy seeing them get smeared in hilarious memes and stuff

If I gave you two bags of dog poop, one will smell better than the other...but that doesn't also mean it also smells good. Hard no on Crabtree and any other WR that runs a 40 in 9 seconds.