Alphadawg7

All good, I get why you feel that way. I just expect us to bring in better WR's.

Yeah certainly makes a lot of sense to me. Up until Mayocks recent comments, I had suspicions that they might shop Carr to someone like the Giants or Jags and look to draft Murray at 4. But some things have changed at the combine... Mayock is at least telling people he really believes Carr is a Franchise guy. AZ GM said "Rosen is our QB right now" - which is far from a ringing endorsement and I think now that Murray measured 5'10 officially, the Murray to Cardinals talk is really going to heat up. So Raiders may not have a shot at Murray anyway. If Raiders stick with Carr they got to get him some weapons. Gruden is an offense guy, he would drool at having Brown. And they can probably offer Steelers best deal, might even be the only team willing to spend a first given they got 2 late ones.

This is what I have been thinking too since Mayock has been telling everyone at the combine that he really believes Carr is a franchise QB. So I expect them to find weapons if he is going to commit to Carr and they have a lot of draft picks to make a deal happen.

I think AZ is going to take Murray personally, or at the very least seriously considering it. Rosen was not the guy they wanted in the draft, they wanted Allen and now they have a new staff too who loves Murray.

Thats what I am thinking, especially since we have 2 of them

Big yes.

I’m a big yes. There are a number of RBs I would love in 3rd or 4th, and he is one of them.

Well a house under unfinished construction is gonna be worth less than before it was, so this actually works in the analogy too ha

I think there is more fact than opinion in what you just said given he's come up short a lot in key moments or just been utterly invisible too often. And this thread is not about declaring him a bust, its always been about the belief I have they will find a better WR. Doesnt mean Zay cant be a contributor or doesnt deserve to be on a roster. I don't even think he's a bust. I just think he could be an odd man out on this roster if we add the expected talent to the WR this offseason that I believe we will. And not through a cut, but by trading him to get value while he has it. If he is on the bench a lot in 2019, he will have much less trade value later. So I think Beane would move him while he can get the most for him if 3 other WR's end up higher than him on the depth chart.

If you think the offense the first 2 years is the offense he "built" then I don't know what to tell you dude. He clearly didnt build year one, and year 2 was it torn down so it can be built back up. Honestly do not know how this is confusing to you. Lets say you are a contractor who buys a house to live in while he remodels it for a flip. When do you analyze the quality of that contractors overall work? When he first closes escrow and moves his stuff into the house? During the process of the remodel where he has torn most the things out? When the house is actually complete and ready to be sold or lived in? You are obsessed with stages 1 and 2 with no patience to see stage 3. Got news for you, stages 1 and 2 are always necessary on a remodel just like they are on a rebuild. Sometimes a coach can enter the picture with part of the rebuild started. Like when McVay took over the Rams and it had talent on D, its franchise QB already on the roster, and an elite RB to help his offense. Thats like taking over a house that already had the heavy lifting done and now you just gotta come in and add the amenities. Much quicker flip, much quicker team rebuild. McD didnt have that luxury. And what he and Beane have done in 2 combined seasons is pretty encouraging. Year 3 (or year 2 for Beane) is now about doing the finishing work to really make the place shine. And if they don't do a good job, they will be on the hot seat. But their body of work is not what they did to get here, its what they do NOW that we are ready for this stage.

This is my whole thing with him...the tape doesn't lie, stats lie in the NFL, but the tape doesn't. He left a LOT of plays on the field, way more than you want to see from a starting WR.

Thats a fair point, and we wont know that until later in the year. Couple of things people keep missing from what I said (not saying you did, just in general in this thread). I never said he would be cut, in my OP I said traded. I said I think he will be traded, as he will have value. I said I thought the trade would happen during the preseaosn, perhaps just before final roster cuts. I based this gut feeling on the notion we will add at least 2 more WR's in FA/Draft/Trades that would be relevant players (not depth WR's). And could add 3, but I expect 2 more since we already added Duke too. And I expect those guys to do some things better than Zay like catching and running routes. The last one being the one that most applies to your comment. My feeling is that we will add 2 guys expected to either start or compete to start. I also believe Duke will be in the mix as well, another gut feeling. So with 3 guys vying to start (Foster and 2 new ones) plus Duke being a wildcard who could push to start, where does Zay come and do something better than the other 3 to 4 relevant guys? So, you bring up a good point, it very well could be understanding the offense where Zay is ahead of some of them and that helps him stay higher on the depth chart, at least early in the season. Thats actually the best point I have read in response to my thread so far.

So you think he inherited a good offense? Come on, you cant for a second believe that. We had a lethal RUN offense, and that diminished for a NUMBER of reasons. And McD doesn't run the offense anyway.

Its fair to, no doubt. BUT: Lets be real on his offensive output. First year he INHERITED that team and a low scoring starting QB. He spent a year seeing what was here and not here, and in that exploratory year he found a way to break a 17 year playoff drought that no one expected. Second year he and Beane understood this team was not ever going to get anywhere significant and we were sitting on what looked to be a very strong QB draft class. They spent the whole offseason insuring they could get into position to reset the team and find a QB for the future. They also set their sites on the guy with the biggest ceiling and biggest arm. You don't go after a QB like that to play conservative football. Additionally we had to trade an OL (underperforming in terms of his contract and injury issues) and had 2 more retire in all the same offseason, all 3 former pro bowl players. We had a cap restrictions with dead cap space for them to clean the cap up for our future, and it worked as we have 3rd most this year and the most projected next year. So lets not mislabel here that this is McD's offense he built last 2 years. He didnt build the first one, and year 2 was tearing down the old offense going no where so they can find a QB and build a new offense for the future. I really do not understand how people are confused by this and somehow blame McD for the offense these first 2 years.

Ditto. Zay got a lot of production on the broken plays where Allen had to use his legs to escape or buy time. If our WR's were winning their routes, our QB would have a place to go with the ball quicker and wont have to run around so much. Once a QB takes off out of the pocket, its hard for DB's to keep holding coverage when WR's start improvising to the scrambling QB. So Zay getting free then is not a big deal to me, I want to see him beat his guy off the line and run a clean route where Allen can hit him. He has not done that well yet. First season was atrocious. Second season was better but still below average. Worse yet, he is awful at beating press coverage. Agree, and this is why while I have my gut feeling I also do not take any offense with people who disagree. I have quite enjoyed the dialogue here, lots of great discussion on both sides. I think we can all agree that all of us would want nothing more than Zay to prove to be a very good WR.

All good, you just doubled down on the same thing. We can agree to disagree. Clearly you have a certain narrative of McD and see evidence to fill that. I see the scope of what he said, how he coached, and everything both he and McD and Beane said and done to believe the 21 point reference is not the meat of what he is saying.

Thats just it, I said I think he will be traded at some point because I do think we will bring in at least 2, and possibly 3 new WRs between FA, draft, and maybe trades (like maybe Ross, not expecting a big trade for Brown or anyone). If we ONLY bring in ONE more WR the rest the offseason (and I mean a relevant WR, not depth guys) then I absolutely think Zay will be on this team week 1. But I think its more plausible we add 2 more at least. Plus, we did add one earlier in Duke who should not be over looked either. There are only so many WR spots open, and then there is a pecking order. Foster passed Zay, Duke will at the very least compete. Now we add a quality FA WR and then draft one in first 2 rounds...all of a sudden, there are 3 guys (FA, Rookie, and Foster) already challenging to be top 3 on the depth chart along with Duke who I expect to challenge too. Wont be hard for Zay to fall to 4th or 5th if he cant do something better than the other guys. And thats not factoring in if we add 3 more guys which is not out of the question.

And his 2nd year was an improvement, but it was still an issue.

But you are seeing what you want to see. Every comment he made was about how important offense and scoring is, not to mention Beane and McD have repeatedly said stuff like this. But no coach is going to do something stupid and say my 2nd year QB needs to figure out how to score 30+ a game. So you are taking the one specific 21 number and twisting it to mean the opposite of what he literally just said to fit the narrative you have on McD. I think people need to spend more time listening to what people are saying rather than picking a single thing out of a bigger statement and over analyzing it. Have you considered that he doesn't want to put that kind of pressure on his young QB? Like I said above, listening to the whole thing is better than over analyzing one part.

As far as college goes, its a lot easier to get open cleanly in college which makes it a lot easier to catch passes. Also, some guys just don't step up to the pressures or cant shake off mistakes well. So if their confidence gets a little rattled its hard to come back from and really affects them on the field. I have said in other threads before that I think the biggest factor in Zays struggles might be his week 2 game as a rookie against the Panthers where we lost because of the game ending dropped pass. The biggest failure on the play was his route, not the drop. He ran a sloppy route where he stumbled without interference and was then in bad position to make the game ending catch. He would get his hands on it still but still didnt come down with the ball. I think that got to him and he clearly struggled heavy with drops from that point on despite looking impressive in the preseason with less pressure. Then add in the off field stuff after that bad rookie year, and I think he is just a guy who struggles with mistakes and getting his mind fully past them. Thats not a good trait, because no WR catches 100% of the passes. If he can shake off a drop, he will have a career long issue with confidence and never take that step forward. Nope. I said I was surprised a rub and tug incident reached 50 pages. I asked what could possibly still be getting discussed 50 pages in about a guy getting a handy. All I did was call you out for jumping into THIS thread then when engaging with you was told to go SEARCH for your comments in other parts of the board. Thats a pretty silly thing to do, and was just being honest, I see you say that a lot to a lot of people. Dont really know why you would participate here then object to participating here if someone engages in discussion with you.

Gotcha. To be fair though, does he really have to say "at least"? I mean does anyone really think the target is to be right at 21? He spent the whole time talking about how important scoring is, so just think people are hanging up too much on the 21 and whether or not he said "at least".

Oh yeah, forgot about your thread police obsession. I started my own thread about a prediction, if you want to participate here, then participate. Coming in to tell people to go search your other posts is pretty ridiculous after you entered into the discussion here. And no offense, you do this A LOT to a lot of people in a lot of threads. If you had your way, there would literally be a grand total of 10 threads on the whole board and they would all be over 1000 pages each and impossible to read. One on Allen. One on the draft. One on McD. One on Beane. One on the OL. One on the WRs. One on trades. One on the Pats. One on cuts. One on everything that doesnt fit perfectly into one of those 9.

Yikes...great guy, great player...but I don't if I would come back if I was him. I just cant see this being a good move given age and spending a year away from the game. I think the adjustment to get back to the physicality of the sport is going to be greater than he realizes on his elder body now.

Thats not really accurate though saying "won one more game" thing...you realize had our offense not been completely inept through injuries part of the season, we could have held the ball longer, scored more points, and also held the opponent to LESS points. So there isnt really any accuracy to just saying we only win one more game had we scored 21 points or more each game. Lets not do the TSW thing here though and over emphasize and over analyze this statement as if he wants to build a 21 point offense. I mean he isnt going to come out and say we need to average 30. He is clearly emphasizing the importance of scoring, its not like he has 21 points tattooed on his chest lol.

Since the day Nagy got there he was viewed as a guy who didnt fit his system. Nagy wants more of a shifty guy and Jordan is more of a straight line runner. I think Jordan would be a better Ivory to McCoy. Send a day 3 pick, like one of our extra 5ths for him (RB's just dont hold great trade value, so he could probably be had this cheap) and then draft a guy like Henderson or Love to compliment the group. McCoy and Howard lead the backfield this year, with Howard and that young RB being the duo next year. This isnt a must trade scenario for me, but I do like this if we can get him for a 5th.