folz Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know we're all a little frustrated and nervous about the upcoming season... But, why all the hate for Aaron? He's been a Bill for a long time, played hard for our team and had some great seasons... I can understand people questioning whether he's lost a step or should be starting or whatever, but some posts are just spewed with venom towards him. Why? He's been a career-long Bill, who exceeded expectations and was solid for our team for years. Show some respect to a true Buffalo Bill. Since the 2001 season he ranks second in total sacks, only behind Jason Taylor. He started in 116 consecutive games with the Bills from 2003[1] until 2008 2 Pro Bowls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know we're all a little frustrated and nervous about the upcoming season... But, why all the hate for Aaron? He's been a Bill for a long time, played hard for our team and had some great seasons... I can understand people questioning whether he's lost a step or should be starting or whatever, but some posts are just spewed with venom towards him. Why? He's been a career-long Bill, who exceeded expectations and was solid for our team for years. Show some respect to a true Buffalo Bill. Since the 2001 season he ranks second in total sacks, only behind Jason Taylor. He started in 116 consecutive games with the Bills from 2003[1] until 2008 2 Pro Bowls In a word, ignorance. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know we're all a little frustrated and nervous about the upcoming season... But, why all the hate for Aaron? He's been a Bill for a long time, played hard for our team and had some great seasons... I can understand people questioning whether he's lost a step or should be starting or whatever, but some posts are just spewed with venom towards him. Why? He's been a career-long Bill, who exceeded expectations and was solid for our team for years. Show some respect to a true Buffalo Bill. Since the 2001 season he ranks second in total sacks, only behind Jason Taylor. He started in 116 consecutive games with the Bills from 2003[1] until 2008 2 Pro Bowls When you say that someone is overrated...and is largely ineffective on the rush..-it isn't spewing hatred.Its giving an opinion. I have always thought that he is a hard worker and at one time was a solid but highly overrated DE.No hatred for the guy. Its just that many people react to the 'oh wait til Schobel gets back' or the Schobel pro-bowl comments with a bit of disdain after seeing him be largely invisible for many years out on the field. Many also think that his sack totals from several yrs back weren't a reflection of his overall effectiveness:That he garnered many cheap sacks at inconsequential times. That being said--best of luck to him for this season.The guy works hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharper802 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 They are the same morons that love Josh Reed catching a pass for a first down but never breaking a tackle for a long play or a TD. They are the same idiots who are happy our ProBowl LT is playing for another team and we have a new OL that will be best known as an erectile dysfunction joke. Fortunately no-one in their right mind can defend the fact Keith Ellison is a starting LB for our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I have no hate for Schobel I just think he's done - I didn't think his 2007 season was very good and I thought his play in 2008 before the injury was worse- some people talk like he was ripping it up before his injury I don't think that was the case at all- you can point to tackles but the gold standard for DE's is sacks - which DE lead the league in tackles last year or the year before? you are a better man than me if you know that stat off the top of your head- Schobel hasn't looked good to me in preseason and if he had double digit sacks last season I wouldn't care but he's coming off two seasons where he has looked mediocre at best and an injury - he's undersized and is at an age where quickness diminishes and injury is more likely- Schobel is too well paid to be a backup, can't play DT, and doesn't play special teams -I don't see that he is at this point a significantly better player than Ellis or Bryan and they have a chance to improve while Schobel's play will at best stay constant and at worst decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 you can point to tackles but the gold standard for DE's is sacks - which DE lead the league in tackles last year or the year before? That's the gold standard for stat hounds only. It's nothing more than a single data point for folks who recognize that there's far more to the position than striving for 1 sack a game. DLine tackle leaders last year(Schobel was on pace to lead the league before he got hurt) 1 - Shaun Rogers 2 - Trent Cole 3 - Justin Tuck 4 - Justin Smith 5 - Ogunleye 6 - Kampman 7 - Darryl Tapp 8 - Jamal Williams 9 - Vince Wilfork 10 - Kevin Williams Schobel hasn't looked good to me in preseason and if he had double digit sacks last season I wouldn't care but he's coming off two seasons where he has looked mediocre at best and an injury - he's undersized and is at an age where quickness diminishes and injury is more likely I think he's looked fine in preseason, even very very good at times. One thing that stands out to me is that he seems to recognize he's not going to beat a lot of guys around the edge with any consistency now that he's older, and he seems to have made an adjustment in his game where he focuses more on unbalancing opponents and then utilizing his strength to drive them where he wants to go. I'm not sure I've seen a Tackle ride him upfield once this preseason, and that's not something you can say very often about even the best DE's. One point I will agree on is that it's not unseemly to worry about his health. The guy has a tremendous number of NFL snaps under his belt and that wear and tear is going to catch up with him eventually. Particularly when he seems to be playing a much more physical game these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Why did you leave Denney out of your top ten he had 58 tackles and 4 sacks 1 forced fumble and seven pass defenses - Schobel was on pace for 60.8 tackles 3.2 sacks 0 forced fumbles and 3.2 pass defenses- if you don't want to count Schobel's 5th game the pace would be 60, 4, 0, 4 if Schobel is a stud then there can be no denying that Denney is also a stud as he also can play DT and special teams- in fact our DE's must be wonderful- who can argue with such clear statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know we're all a little frustrated and nervous about the upcoming season... But, why all the hate for Aaron? He's been a Bill for a long time, played hard for our team and had some great seasons... I can understand people questioning whether he's lost a step or should be starting or whatever, but some posts are just spewed with venom towards him. Why? He's been a career-long Bill, who exceeded expectations and was solid for our team for years. Show some respect to a true Buffalo Bill. Since the 2001 season he ranks second in total sacks, only behind Jason Taylor. He started in 116 consecutive games with the Bills from 2003[1] until 2008 2 Pro Bowls In a word, ignorance. GO BILLS!!! What they said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Why did you leave Denney out of your top ten .... Denney finished a respectable 24th in the league with 40 tackles. Schobel's extrapolated 60 would have put him 1 behind Shaun Rogers for the league lead. I checked during the week he had to shut it down and he was #1 in the NFL. But yeah, he's no "better player than Ellis or Bryan". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyOptimistic Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 My sense is that there is some general resentment of these athletes for getting a king's ransom to play a boys game. Add to that Schobel throwing a bit of a hissy fit when already under contract he sat out all of the voluntary minicamps when the FO stupidly signed the worse performing Kelsay for a ton more than Schoebel was under contract for. There is some resentment, but the difference is that the FO simply caved for Schoebel but then drew a line in the sand for Peters. Peters ran with the Schoebel model as he never said negative things about the Bills he simply refused to show up for voluntary practice and then escalated to not show up for mandatory practice when the Bills refused to negotiate. In the end though, just as they gave Schoebel the cash prize he demanded so too did the FO give Peters the cash result he demanded. Now Maybin and his agent made a special effort to push the Bills FO around. I suspect that as the Bills FO demonstrated their willingness to cave to a players cash demands both in the case of Schoebel and Peters we likely will see more Bills FAs doing what Maybin appeared to do and what Jackson appeared to do when negotiating with the Bills FO. Schobel set the precedent though. I think even fans who do not care about this or understand the contracts still feel underlying discomfort with the way Schoebel pushed the Bills FO around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChimp Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 What games, let's just say in the last three seasons, has Schobel stood out as a force that changed the tide of a game and singlehandedly helped the Bills to a win? No joke, I can't remember a single time. He can collect his sacks one at a time and look really good on paper (even though most of his tackles were after a 4-5 yard gain), but this guy is a NONENTITY out there every single flipping game and it's ANNOYING! He's a douche. He certainly doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Jason Taylor, that is for damn sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 My sense is that there is some general resentment of these athletes for getting a king's ransom to play a boys game. Add to that Schobel throwing a bit of a hissy fit when already under contract he sat out all of the voluntary minicamps when the FO stupidly signed the worse performing Kelsay for a ton more than Schoebel was under contract for. There is some resentment, but the difference is that the FO simply caved for Schoebel but then drew a line in the sand for Peters. Peters ran with the Schoebel model as he never said negative things about the Bills he simply refused to show up for voluntary practice and then escalated to not show up for mandatory practice when the Bills refused to negotiate. In the end though, just as they gave Schoebel the cash prize he demanded so too did the FO give Peters the cash result he demanded. Now Maybin and his agent made a special effort to push the Bills FO around. I suspect that as the Bills FO demonstrated their willingness to cave to a players cash demands both in the case of Schoebel and Peters we likely will see more Bills FAs doing what Maybin appeared to do and what Jackson appeared to do when negotiating with the Bills FO. Schobel set the precedent though. I think even fans who do not care about this or understand the contracts still feel underlying discomfort with the way Schoebel pushed the Bills FO around. IIRC, Schoebel came in before his contract negotiations were done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 When you have 2 starting DE's that are good against the run, make tackles, and can't get to the QB, you have a problem. Schobel has now resorted to trying to bull rush the tackles backwards on every play, because he has no more agility and quickness. Schobel is a fine player still for a team that doesn't need to rely on him to get a consistent pass rush. But we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGimp Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know we're all a little frustrated and nervous about the upcoming season... But, why all the hate for Aaron? He's been a Bill for a long time, played hard for our team and had some great seasons... I can understand people questioning whether he's lost a step or should be starting or whatever, but some posts are just spewed with venom towards him. Why? He's been a career-long Bill, who exceeded expectations and was solid for our team for years. Show some respect to a true Buffalo Bill. Since the 2001 season he ranks second in total sacks, only behind Jason Taylor. He started in 116 consecutive games with the Bills from 2003[1] until 2008 2 Pro Bowls How many times has the guy won a game for them? How many playoff appearances with his fine leadership? That guy has a losers attitude and I don't care how many garbage sacks he gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first_and_ten Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 When you have 2 starting DE's that are good against the run, make tackles, and can't get to the QB, you have a problem. Schobel has now resorted to trying to bull rush the tackles backwards on every play, because he has no more agility and quickness. Schobel is a fine player still for a team that doesn't need to rely on him to get a consistent pass rush. But we do. I noticed the bull rush also and was wondering if he had lost a step. I hope he turns it up come regular season. Also if I was Kelsay I might wonder if I'm going to be cut. He has under impressed so far. Does anyone think it's a possibility that Kelsay is cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I noticed the bull rush also and was wondering if he had lost a step. I hope he turns it up come regular season. Also if I was Mark Kelsay I might wonder if I'm going to be cut. He has under impressed so far. Does anyone think it's a possibility that Kelsay is cut? Not if he can get to the QB more than Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauderswr80 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Key word: HAD........what has be done lately? NOTHING. He is useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyOptimistic Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I noticed the bull rush also and was wondering if he had lost a step. I hope he turns it up come regular season. Also if I was Kelsay I might wonder if I'm going to be cut. He has under impressed so far. Does anyone think it's a possibility that Kelsay is cut? Off hand I would say no. It has consistently been the case that the Bills FO sees something in Kelsay's production or potential production that I (and a long growing cadre of loud typers on TSW do not see. This is fine as I know for sure that the Bills braintrust has forgotten more about pro football than I can remember. This probably goes double for many curmudgeons on this board. However, there are several wrinkles which have emerged which make this seeming long shot a possibility: 1. Even with us going even more clearly to a DL rotation which creates more spots for significant PT on the DL, we have seen production in the 3 exhibition games this is season from other players which make at least a strong bid to be part of this rotation. Specifically, the DL candidates for the 8 likely slots are: Schoebel- definite due to contract, NFL stature (as seen by his Pro Bowl nods even if undeserved in many TSW opinions, and the potential that if healthy the rotation should help his game a lot. A definite keeper with only an injury to his arm (rather than the ankle which cost him PT last year) raising any doubt whatsoever that he will not occupy a spot. Stroud- Good play on a sorry DL last year earned him a contractual bonus and thus he is a definite keeper. Williams- Surprisingly great achievement with a cheap investment for this second day pick who became a credible starter for us (in part because the competition at DT was so bad)- a likely certain keeper Maybin- First round pick brings mutant pass rush abilities which is the big missing element on this DL- a definite keeper Spencer Johnson- Probably merely an adequate player from all I have seen in terms of play and statistically, but adequate should be good enough to win a DT slot on this team (see Kyle Williams) in the rotation we are gonna mount which has more talent on the outside than inside so far and the outside talent has clearly failed to produce in the immediate pressure on the passer game. Not a definite but a quite likely keeper. Denny- He actually has shown a enough of the field that the long-term extension he won did not seem at least weird (or outlandish which Kelsay's deal did). In Denny's favor, this DE has also demonstrated ability to line up at our weak DT position and his best game in the last few years was a 3 sack game. I know some folks want to get rid of him, but on the face of it since he can line up at DT and he at least has produced the one sackmaster games he has it all over Kelsay as a likely keeper. He disappointed folks early when he was simply unplayable as a rookie, but he was so easily defeated by even a pedestrian OL opponent because of a specific problem he has been cured of (apparently he did not bend his knees properly on the attack and his strength could be easily neutralized his rookie year). He demonstrably has solved the problem and brings some value to the rotation in specific areas we need. This makes 6 of 8 likely or definite with Kelsay not yet making the list. Two slots should go to 2 below A. Kelsay B. Bryan- on the active roster last year and has produced sacks/pressures so far this pre-season and has looked OK against run (our starters have not looked good but the second unit has looked better against the admittedly weaker opposition. C. Ellis- has also shown some of the sack/pressure chops which made us interested and done well enough standing up to the run in his later game stints. He is of particular interest to us in that he plays a potential same role as the mutant Maybin and thus makes us less dependent on his health and also lessen us being typecast depending upon which personnel we have on the field. D. McCargo- The only thing keeping him in the mix is the fact he is a 1st rounder still in his first contract. The Bills even concluded a deal to get rid of him but had it reversed when he failed his physical. He appears to be working hard but almost is certainly trying to impress others as he is quite likely to head elsewhere despite our weakness at DT. I think it is likely though that Kelsay makes it unless Bryan is the odd man out. Even with this equation it is not unlikely that the Bills keep 9 DL players (particularly if Schoebel is hurt) and McCargo is the man on the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Because Schoebel gets paid a lot of money and gets nothing done. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Because Schoebel gets paid a lot of money and gets nothing done. PTR Exactly. Who cares how many tackles Schobel had in 2001-2002? London Fletcher had a lot of tackles too - unfortunately most of them were 9 yards down field. Who cares how many hypothetical "projected" tackles he would have had? He didn't have them in fact. How many sacks did he have? The fact NOW is that he can't get to the quarterback. The fact NOW is that the Bills had to use their top draft pick on a DE because the pass rush stinks with Schobel as the leading "pass rusher". The fact is too many Bills fans live in fantasy land where achievements years ago are overly admired, but are meaningless today. Don't hide from today's reality - the Bills starting DE's are ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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