Anyone Agree with Tim Graham on This?

[spartacus]

I know there were no other substantial offers, because the Bills ended-up settling for the 28th overall pick. And the only other team interested was the Giants, and some unnamed 3rd team, again both of whom didn't offer more than the 28th overall pick.

 

As for the Eagles and challenging for the SB, they've been doing that without Peters. Not to mention the Steelers and Giants won SB's without "stud" and overpriced LT's.

so basically you don't know anything other than what you made up

 

there could have been 28 other teams offering packages of picks and players comparable to the Eagles offer that fit your criteria.

 

The Eagles actually offered their earlier pick (21st I believe) but the Bills wanted an additional low round pick in 2010 for some unknown reason.

[VOR]

so basically you don't know anything other than what you made up

 

there could have been 28 other teams offering packages of picks and players comparable to the Eagles offer that fit your criteria.

Sure and the Bills could have refused the 21st overall just so that they could get the 28th overall pick and a 6th rounder in 2010.

 

The Eagles actually offered their earlier pick (21st I believe) but the Bills wanted an additional low round pick in 2010 for some unknown reason.

[Peter]

I am too lazy right now to look it up, but if you have been reading this board you will know that someone else already did an analysis of this. The sacks charged against him last year were inflated. The Bills themselves (according to media reports) also concluded the same thing.

 

The easiest way to determine the worth of JP is compare what happened in the Giant game at the end of 2007 before and after he got hurt.

 

This what I was referring to:

 

Analysis of Jason Peters

[Kelly the Dog]

I still find it interesting that despite this, only the Eagles offered anything substantial for Peters. I mean, if you were the Rams, wouldn't you rather trade your 2nd overall pick to the Bills and get "the best LT in the NFL" for less money than the wholly unproven #2 overall pick will be getting? What about the Bengals at 6th overall, who will have to spend the same amount for Andre Smith, a guy with major question marks? Why didn't the Giants (the only other team mentioned by name who was interested in Peters) offer their 29th overall pick and their 3rd rounder? I'm betting it's because of the cons you listed.

The second overall pick last year signed for 48 mil for 5 years. The sixth pick, like your Bengals example, signed for 32 million over five. Huge difference in money as opposed to 6-60 that Peters got. The third pick, Matt Ryan signed for 6-66 but they way overpaid and it was because he was a QB.

[Thurman#1]

Sorry Bandit, but beg to differ - as does Ross Tucker...

 

"There is no way that I, as an offensive lineman, would know how well the corners or safeties around the league are truly playing. And do you honestly think the wide receivers really know what defensive tackle is doing the best job stopping the run? Please. All they know is what they hear on the scouting report, if they were even listening during that portion, or from the media hype machine that carries certain players to Hawaii every year."

 

link

 

Two major holes in your hypothesis -

 

1) Coaches and players do not 'study the entire league 5 times over, year-round' (you really don't believe they're that studious, do you?) - they study the teams they will face that season, and likely only the team they will face that week, and likely only the week before they face that particular team;

 

2) Coaches and players tend to study opposing positional players, rather than every single player in the league - i.e., an opposing WR, RB, QB, etc. is unlikely to spend any time at all studying film of Jason Peters or any other LT.

 

 

Yeah, and I'm sure that if I were a safety who had to vote for an all-pro candidate at LT, I'm sure I would vote based on hype alone. There's no possible way I would ever:

 

1) ask the DEs on my team who they didn't like to play, after all, this would require a walk of probably 30 or 40 feet in the locker room

 

or

 

2) just not vote for anyone at that position if I didn't feel I had a good idea of what was going on there

 

------

 

I'm definitely willing to concede that just because you're a pro doesn't mean that you automatically know the difference between a good season and a not so good one for each player in the league. But there are only about 1600 players in the league. You really don't think word doesn't get around about who is having a good season and who's not? Particularly with the huge amount of player movement, most guys in the league have friends on other clubs and are likely to talk football with their own teammates and friends on other teams. Yeah, you might not know much about a lot of the mediocre players, but you would have a pretty good idea about the best guys in the league. Not a perfect idea, I totally grant you, but a much better idea than the fans do.

[Thurman#1]

hey vj91 just so you know, Russ offered Jason Peters the Richest/largest contract in team history this past offseason before we traded him, check post #82 by Lori, better yet here it is.

 

"There's the rub. Remember what Brandon said:

"... we offered Jason an enormous contract – the largest contract in Bills history – and he had no interest in it. None."

 

"We felt very strongly that Jason was not going to come back to camp, was not going to participate, and we were going to be in the same situation (as last year)."

 

I think most of us agree that there was very little chance of a deal getting done".

 

 

just an FYI, we did try

 

 

 

Yeah, we did try, but the Eagles offered market value and the Bills didn't. Look around at league salaries and how many players are being paid more than the largest contract in Bills history (Lee Evans). Particularly as Russ didn't say whether he meant the largest per year or the largest total number.

 

I totally agree with vj91, yeah, we made an offer. But we should have offered market value. Peters signed for just about the median between the Bills original offer and Peters's first demand. Just about what most people figured he would get.

 

Well, as vj said, we will see what happens. And yeah, I do like Wood's potential. But we should have offered market value.

[Kelly the Dog]

Yeah, and I'm sure that if I were a safety who had to vote for an all-pro candidate at LT, I'm sure I would vote based on hype alone. There's no possible way I would ever:

 

1) ask the DEs on my team who they didn't like to play, after all, this would require a walk of probably 30 or 40 feet in the locker room

 

or

 

2) just not vote for anyone at that position if I didn't feel I had a good idea of what was going on there

 

------

 

I'm definitely willing to concede that just because you're a pro doesn't mean that you automatically know the difference between a good season and a not so good one for each player in the league. But there are only about 1600 players in the league. You really don't think word doesn't get around about who is having a good season and who's not? Particularly with the huge amount of player movement, most guys in the league have friends on other clubs and are likely to talk football with their own teammates and friends on other teams. Yeah, you might not know much about a lot of the mediocre players, but you would have a pretty good idea about the best guys in the league. Not a perfect idea, I totally grant you, but a much better idea than the fans do.

I get a kick out of the argument that being selected to the pro bowl is all a popularity contest or little measure of how good you are or how well you played. Here is the 2009 Pro Bowl roster. Sure, you could argue player A or B didnt deserve it or Player C or D did, but it's a pretty accurate assessment of last year's stars. There are young and old, first timers and second and third timers. Guys out of nowhere and perrenial solid players.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story?id=09000d...mp;confirm=true

[DazedandConfused]

Actually, I think it's because the rest of the NFL coaches, GMs, and scouts are not privy to the knowledge that FatStupidLazyLardAss is the bestest, greatest LT alive - that fact is only known by a select few posters here on TSW who, quite selfishly, have chosen not to share it with every other front office in the league.

It probably is wishful thinking by Jason Peters Mom and a few others that he is clearly the best LT in football. However, this flight of fancy seems to be easily exceeded by those who simply classify Peters as a FatStupidblahblahblah.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Bills did a tremendous job convincing this UDFA to come to lil ol Buffalo when he had offers from several other teams. They deserve credit for being led by the Mouse to recognize that this player firmly committed to being a TE actually had the right stuff to play tackle.

 

On top of this great recognition, an excellent job of coaching and some incredibly successful (and likely hard) work by Peters not only proved him worthy of an RT starting slot (already an amazing achievement in the just started career of a youngster) but he in fact proved talented and productive enough to take the LT starting slot.

 

The fact he made the Pro Bowl as a starter so quickly and by a pretty broad consensus deserved the nod the first time her got it was simply a virtually unbelievable achievement.

 

Did he deserve his second Pro Bowl nod? Almost certainly not from those who watched him play.

 

However, this opinion which I accept as fact in no way simply nullify the FACTs laid out describing his early achievements.

 

The sad fact IMHO is that the FO blew it big time by not locking up Peters for even longer after his first Pro Bowl nod. The price of another contract would have been small compared to what the market in fact delivered to him when he jumped ship on the BIlls (again say what you want about Philly's judgment but the market is the market and the simple fact is that the market gave Peters the 6/60 deal he signed. Other theoriwa about other team's lack of interest may be true but simply do not compare at all to the fact the market did determine Peters' value at 6/60 and the Bills could almost certainly have gotten him for much less than that last year.

 

The FO simply flat out mishandled the OL situation as they delivered a truckload of cash to Dockery which was simply a failed decision. Add to that the actual fact that they lost their 2x Pro Bowl LT for a small compensation in most folks view and now our team is simply rebuilding the OL with a bunch of youngsters led by overpaid or highly paid journeymen like Walker and Hamgartner.

 

Assessments of the OL situation which simply ignore the actual facts and seem to let the Bills FO management off the hook for this debacle simply come across as hollow sour grapes. Peters is not the greatest LT ever in my book, but as misguided as these assessments are they look like a great thing compared to the selective ignorance shown by many of the Peters trashers,

[Thurman#1]

 

and you know that there were not other offers - ---how???

 

The Bills don't even release contract info on their own players -

 

why would you think they released info on potential trade offers?

 

but just keep making up stuff and watch the Eagles challenge for a Super Bowl with a stud LT

 

 

 

Yeah, they don't release info on even unaccepted offers that they make, according to their policy. Although they ignore that policy from time to time when it's in their own interest. Russ commented that they had made an offer to Peters that was the largest in team history. What is that if not info on a contract offer?

 

And yeah, there may have been some under-the-table offers, other than the Giants and Eagles. But what the haters ignore is that there were surely lots of teams looking at the situation and saying, "Jeez, I sure would love to have Peters on the team, but not with the salary cap situation what it is in now heading into the season with Peters expecting a huge contract." People are willing to ignore the obvious in pursuit of furthering their agenda. Teams around the league knew that Peters would get a huge offer and that he wasn't likely to play for what he was getting, at least till the start of the season.

 

Around the league, when a guy signs a contract, it is usually with one or two or maybe three teams showing interest as the rest are happy with their situation at that position, don't have the money or don't want to spend it (that would be us, usually) and let's face it when a guy gets a market value contract, that means there are 31 teams out there who wouldn't pay that much in that situation and most of them simply know that they are not in the right situation to acquire that player. And that's not to even mention the teams that might think "Gee, the guy is terrific, but might not fit our scheme/chemistry/player profile ..."

 

That's what happened with Peters.

[Mickey]

It probably is wishful thinking by Jason Peters Mom and a few others that he is clearly the best LT in football. However, this flight of fancy seems to be easily exceeded by those who simply classify Peters as a FatStupidblahblahblah.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Bills did a tremendous job convincing this UDFA to come to lil ol Buffalo when he had offers from several other teams. They deserve credit for being led by the Mouse to recognize that this player firmly committed to being a TE actually had the right stuff to play tackle.

 

On top of this great recognition, an excellent job of coaching and some incredibly successful (and likely hard) work by Peters not only proved him worthy of an RT starting slot (already an amazing achievement in the just started career of a youngster) but he in fact proved talented and productive enough to take the LT starting slot.

 

The fact he made the Pro Bowl as a starter so quickly and by a pretty broad consensus deserved the nod the first time her got it was simply a virtually unbelievable achievement.

 

Did he deserve his second Pro Bowl nod? Almost certainly not from those who watched him play.

 

However, this opinion which I accept as fact in no way simply nullify the FACTs laid out describing his early achievements.

 

The sad fact IMHO is that the FO blew it big time by not locking up Peters for even longer after his first Pro Bowl nod. The price of another contract would have been small compared to what the market in fact delivered to him when he jumped ship on the BIlls (again say what you want about Philly's judgment but the market is the market and the simple fact is that the market gave Peters the 6/60 deal he signed. Other theoriwa about other team's lack of interest may be true but simply do not compare at all to the fact the market did determine Peters' value at 6/60 and the Bills could almost certainly have gotten him for much less than that last year.

 

The FO simply flat out mishandled the OL situation as they delivered a truckload of cash to Dockery which was simply a failed decision. Add to that the actual fact that they lost their 2x Pro Bowl LT for a small compensation in most folks view and now our team is simply rebuilding the OL with a bunch of youngsters led by overpaid or highly paid journeymen like Walker and Hamgartner.

 

Assessments of the OL situation which simply ignore the actual facts and seem to let the Bills FO management off the hook for this debacle simply come across as hollow sour grapes. Peters is not the greatest LT ever in my book, but as misguided as these assessments are they look like a great thing compared to the selective ignorance shown by many of the Peters trashers,

Well done. I would only add that calling Peters out in public when camp opened last year was inexplicably stupid. The only people who mattered in the negotiations were Peters, his agent and the front office. So why do something to alienate the player? It got the fans all riled up but they don't have a seat at the table so why tick off someone who does?

[VOR]

The second overall pick last year signed for 48 mil for 5 years. The sixth pick, like your Bengals example, signed for 32 million over five. Huge difference in money as opposed to 6-60 that Peters got. The third pick, Matt Ryan signed for 6-66 but they way overpaid and it was because he was a QB.

Peters will get $24M in guaranteed money, which is the most important part, since contracts rarely last the entire length. Chris Long got a 6-year $56.6M contract with $29M in guaranteed money. Adjusting for inflation, the 2nd overall pick will probably get around a 6-year $60M with $30M guaranteed. Vernon Gholston got a 5-year $50M with $21M guaranteed, and the 6th overall pick will make more this year.

[Kelly the Dog]

Peters will get $24M in guaranteed money, which is the most important part, since contracts rarely last the entire length. Chris Long got a 6-year $56.6M contract with $29M in guaranteed money. Adjusting for inflation, the 2nd overall pick will probably get around a 6-year $60M with $30M guaranteed. Vernon Gholston got a 5-year $50M with $21M guaranteed, and the 6th overall pick will make more this year.

 

I have yet to see these guys wrong on contracts, although it probably has happened. Gholston got 32 mil. The incentives in these deals are all over the place and they are usually not the likely to be earned kind like making the pro bowl and winning the super bowl. Especially with the start he got.

7/24/2008: Signed a five-year, $32.5 million contract. The deal includes $21 million guaranteed. Another $17.5 million is available through incentives. 2009: $2.9 million, 2010: $3.48 million, 2011: $4.06 million, 2012: $4.64 million, 2013: Free Agent

 

Longs was 48 mil, with incentives.

 

Also, IMO it's just plain dumb for anyone to say the "guaranteed money" is the important part. It's a LOT more accurate and highly likely that "the guaranteed money plus the first three years of salary is the important part" because virtually everyone of these guys plays 2-3-4 years of those deals with that team before they are cut if they don't live up to the contract.

[DazedandConfused]

I have yet to see these guys wrong on contracts, although it probably has happened. Gholston got 32 mil. The incentives in these deals are all over the place and they are usually not the likely to be earned kind like making the pro bowl and winning the super bowl. Especially with the start he got.

 

Longs was 48 mil, with incentives.

 

Also, IMO it's just plain dumb for anyone to say the "guaranteed money" is the important part. It's a LOT more accurate and highly likely that "the guaranteed money plus the first three years of salary is the important part" because virtually everyone of these guys plays 2-3-4 years of those deals with that team before they are cut if they don't live up to the contract.

The irony in all this arguing over the Peters contract amount is that either way it goes it cuts against how the Bills FO handled this. Either folks believe Peters contract is in fact at the $60 million dollar level in which case if the FO had extended and raised his salary when he jumped from RT to LT and made the Pro Bowl they still could have gotten an even happier Pro Bowl worthy LT for a song compared to what he got from the market.

 

Alternately folks could argue that the $60 million is not real, but inherent in this argument is that the Bills still could have gotten a Pro Bowl worthy LT for even less than the huge contract reported if they had simply given him an extension and raise when he made the jump for RT to LT and made the Pro Bowl.

 

Folks seem to try to avoid the fact that either way you argue interpreting the contract the Bills could have gotten him for less or much less if they had built and maintained their OL more intelligently by simply ignoring the hard work an achievement by Peters in moving from being a UDFA at TE to earning a roster spot to earning an RT slot to earning an LT spot to earning a Pro Bowl nod the first time he got it.

 

Instead some folks seem to want to conclude that you can achieve these things by being a stupidlardass.

 

It is certainly the case for almost any objective observer that there is no way Peters played at a Pro Bowl worthy level last year. However, to acknowledge this fact (IMHO) but somehow to totally discount the other part of reality when the Bills were overpaying Dockery a huge amount and likely overpaying Walker a huge amount just comes off as silly.

[The Senator]

The irony in all this arguing over the Peters contract amount is that either way it goes it cuts against how the Bills FO handled this. Either folks believe Peters contract is in fact at the $60 million dollar level in which case if the FO had extended and raised his salary when he jumped from RT to LT and made the Pro Bowl they still could have gotten an even happier Pro Bowl worthy LT for a song compared to what he got from the market.

 

Alternately folks could argue that the $60 million is not real, but inherent in this argument is that the Bills still could have gotten a Pro Bowl worthy LT for even less than the huge contract reported if they had simply given him an extension and raise when he made the jump for RT to LT and made the Pro Bowl.

 

Folks seem to try to avoid the fact that either way you argue interpreting the contract the Bills could have gotten him for less or much less if they had built and maintained their OL more intelligently by simply ignoring the hard work an achievement by Peters in moving from being a UDFA at TE to earning a roster spot to earning an RT slot to earning an LT spot to earning a Pro Bowl nod the first time he got it.

 

Instead some folks seem to want to conclude that you can achieve these things by being a stupidlardass.

 

It is certainly the case for almost any objective observer that there is no way Peters played at a Pro Bowl worthy level last year. However, to acknowledge this fact (IMHO) but somehow to totally discount the other part of reality when the Bills were overpaying Dockery a huge amount and likely overpaying Walker a huge amount just comes off as silly.

Excuse me...

 

That's FatLazyStupidLardAss

[VOR]

I have yet to see these guys wrong on contracts, although it probably has happened. Gholston got 32 mil. The incentives in these deals are all over the place and they are usually not the likely to be earned kind like making the pro bowl and winning the super bowl. Especially with the start he got.

7/24/2008: Signed a five-year, $32.5 million contract. The deal includes $21 million guaranteed. Another $17.5 million is available through incentives. 2009: $2.9 million, 2010: $3.48 million, 2011: $4.06 million, 2012: $4.64 million, 2013: Free Agent

 

Longs was 48 mil, with incentives.

 

Also, IMO it's just plain dumb for anyone to say the "guaranteed money" is the important part. It's a LOT more accurate and highly likely that "the guaranteed money plus the first three years of salary is the important part" because virtually everyone of these guys plays 2-3-4 years of those deals with that team before they are cut if they don't live up to the contract.

LOL! The guaranteed money is far from "dumb." That's what a player can at least expect from his contract. The total value of the contract is always overstated, because it includes incentives as you mentioned and backloaded salaries that are never seen since the contract gets redone or the player gets cut. And no one knows if the player will reach the incentives or see a new deal, but guaranteed money is guaranteed money. And again, these rookies are wholly unproven and not a "stud" LT like Peters supposedly is, so he's worth the additional money, if there is any.

[Mickey]

I'm pretty sure toddgurley was referring to the Peters of 2008...the one who left at the end of the 2007 season and didn't show up until the eve of the 2008 opener and proceeded to sleep walk through most of the season

ummm....they are the same guy, and I think you meant "sleep walk" into the pro bowl.

 

What do you think is the more rational conclusion, that a guy who worked as hard and as long as Peters did to get as good as he was in 2007 was really just lazy and stupid, a fact finally revealed in 2008 or that Peters held out as a business move (eventually resulting in a new, huge, contract years before his old deal was to expire) which cost him nothing but did effect his ability for one, repeat, one, year? Do you really think he held out because he is lazy and stupid or do you think maybe lazy had nothing do with what was strictly a business move? A very succesfull one as it turned out, for Peters anyway.

[offde-fence]

I think you've got to look at it this way: the Bills had to get rid of him, and to get something in return for him, as opposed to just releasing him, was good for us. Whether the line is better or worse without him is not the point. The point is that to have caved in to his contract demands, especially considering how he handled himself, would have sent a devastating message to present and future Bills players, and would have went further in ruining the nature of the game we love so much. Sure these guys deserve money; but, they sign contracts worth a great deal of money - these players make so much compared to most people (I know they're elite) - but, they have an agreement, and need to be held to their end. How else are teams supposed to build? If every guy that turns out to be a surprise demands mucho money, or else he won't play, then teams would be punished for drafting good, because they'd lose the men they put time into training. The salary cap and the structure of the league only work if both sides stick to their agreements. So, the Bills couldn't fold on this one, because a bunch of other guys would, deservedly or not, follow suit and say and do the same kinds of things. At least we got something for him.

[spartacus]

I think you've got to look at it this way: the Bills had to get rid of him, and to get something in return for him, as opposed to just releasing him, was good for us. Whether the line is better or worse without him is not the point. The point is that to have caved in to his contract demands, especially considering how he handled himself, would have sent a devastating message to present and future Bills players, and would have went further in ruining the nature of the game we love so much. Sure these guys deserve money; but, they sign contracts worth a great deal of money - these players make so much compared to most people (I know they're elite) - but, they have an agreement, and need to be held to their end. How else are teams supposed to build? If every guy that turns out to be a surprise demands mucho money, or else he won't play, then teams would be punished for drafting good, because they'd lose the men they put time into training. The salary cap and the structure of the league only work if both sides stick to their agreements. So, the Bills couldn't fold on this one, because a bunch of other guys would, deservedly or not, follow suit and say and do the same kinds of things. At least we got something for him.

 

Hi Russ

 

nice to see you trying to influence the masses on a message board

 

I see you still don't understand that winning teams accumulate elite talent - which requires fair market compensation- instead of running them out of town.

 

When a team lucks out and picks up a player without spending a high pick who turns into a superstar- the team should be more than willing to reward him with a fair market contract and pat themselves on the back for great talent evaluation.

 

Playing hardball with your best player "because you can" is the wrong message you are sending to your own team and future free agents.

 

Your comment about setting bad precedent is just stupid. If all of the multiple pro bowlers playing LT on the team lined up to get new contracts, it would be an awful short line. Reward superior play with fair contracts and there is no problem.

[BillsVet]

Well done. I would only add that calling Peters out in public when camp opened last year was inexplicably stupid. The only people who mattered in the negotiations were Peters, his agent and the front office. So why do something to alienate the player? It got the fans all riled up but they don't have a seat at the table so why tick off someone who does?

 

Let's all remember that Brandon was thrown into the fire after Levy retired. He had absolutely in evaluating talent, beside what people tell him. He had never scouted, negotiated with an agent, nothing.

 

It's my belief that Brandon is the public face for Wilson and Littman. He speaks well, is much younger, and has succeeded in marketing a team which really has a track record of failure going back nearly an entire decade. Unfortunately, he had no experience working with players. And it showed when he arrogantly said (based on a directive most likely from Littman and Wilson) that they would not renegotiate the Peters deal from 06.

 

They, like the Sabres, stuck to principle of not renegotiating and adhering to out-dated principles. I'm not one for renegotiating deals, but in this situation they took the nuclear option and it blew up in their face.

 

Losing Peters means moving the starting RT to LT (a position he's never played long term) and the RG to RT. It's more than just losing Peters, it's a whole lot more.

[VOR]

Hi Russ

 

nice to see you trying to influence the masses on a message board

 

I see you still don't understand that winning teams accumulate elite talent - which requires fair market compensation- instead of running them out of town.

 

When a team lucks out and picks up a player without spending a high pick who turns into a superstar- the team should be more than willing to reward him with a fair market contract and pat themselves on the back for great talent evaluation.

 

Playing hardball with your best player "because you can" is the wrong message you are sending to your own team and future free agents.

 

Your comment about setting bad precedent is just stupid. If all of the multiple pro bowlers playing LT on the team lined up to get new contracts, it would be an awful short line. Reward superior play with fair contracts and there is no problem.

When a player sits-out the entire off- and pre-season, decides to come back the day before the season starts, plays like crap and doesn't give a sh-- that he does, he doesn't deserve a huge new contract. Other guys actually showed-up to off-season activities, and then got paid. Good riddance.

[NewEra]

When a player sits-out the entire off- and pre-season, decides to come back the day before the season starts, plays like crap and doesn't give a sh-- that he does, he doesn't deserve a huge new contract. Other guys actually showed-up to off-season activities, and then got paid. Good riddance.

 

 

I'm with you.

[Sisyphean Bills]

When a player sits-out the entire off- and pre-season, decides to come back the day before the season starts, plays like crap and doesn't give a sh-- that he does, he doesn't deserve a huge new contract. Other guys actually showed-up to off-season activities, and then got paid. Good riddance.

Of course the hold out was after Russ told Peters that he wasn't going to talk to him period until after he got a deal done with Lee Evans, if and when that ever happened.

 

It begs the question: WTF? Is the Bills brain trust capable of only holding one thing in its collective head at a time? Or is it that they can't make good offers and retain more than one top player a year? How would that work out if the Bills actually did hit gold and had a great draft class with several superstars all playing out contracts at the same time? Even if it is an economic limitation, why slam the door in the guy's face? Not exactly a great negotiation tactic, as it led to a holdout and eventually getting rid of a talented player that could've helped the team be better.

[VOR]

Of course the hold out was after Russ told Peters that he wasn't going to talk to him period until after he got a deal done with Lee Evans, if and when that ever happened.

No, Brandon said he wouldn't talk to Peters about a new contract until he showed up first, and then after taking-care of Evans' contract, which happened at the beginning of October. And again, none of that excuses his poor play, and worse yet, his "who gives a F" attitude. You act and play like a professional no matter how much you make.

[spartacus]

No, Brandon said he wouldn't talk to Peters about a new contract until he showed up first, and then after taking-care of Evans' contract, which happened at the beginning of October. And again, none of that excuses his poor play, and worse yet, his "who gives a F" attitude. You act and play like a professional no matter how much you make.

 

NO

 

Brandon told Peters in January there was to be NO new deal in 2008 - he still had 3 years left.

 

 

Brandon admitted to this at the time of the Peters trade.

 

they wanted Peters to play at his current salary and would talk in 2009.

 

Peters had other ideas - but not alot of options

[VOR]

NO

 

Brandon told Peters in January there was to be NO new deal in 2008 - he still had 3 years left.

 

 

Brandon admitted to this at the time of the Peters trade.

 

they wanted Peters to play at his current salary and would talk in 2009.

 

Peters had other ideas - but not alot of options

I'm still waiting for the link from you where Brandon says this. And again, it still doesn't excuse his performance and attitude. If he has another season in Philly like he did last year, he'll be crucified by the Philly media. He has a lot to live up to now and he'll be under tremendous pressure to produce. In Buffalo he could toil in relative anonymity. He's in for a huge culture shock.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'm still waiting for the link from you where Brandon says this. And again, it still doesn't excuse his performance and attitude. If he has another season in Philly like he did last year, he'll be crucified by the Philly media. He has a lot to live up to now and he'll be under tremendous pressure to produce. In Buffalo he could toil in relative anonymity. He's in for a huge culture shock.

It was notes from a Bills Backers meeting written by Lori Chase. Good enough?

 

http://www.twobillsdrive.com/articles/game_day/127/

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

I would feel worse about JP being gone if:

 

1.) The line with him played great the last few years. Face it, he has never been part of a line that was special. That is not all his fault but he hasn't seemed to be any kind of spark for the OL.

 

2.) He has had injury issues and I predict he will again this year with Philly.

 

3.) He was the ultimate jerk towards his team and protecting TE. He didn't feel bad giving up a sack when he thought about his salary.

 

Personally, I would have a sick sort of feeling right now if the Bills had signed him up for $10 million a year with a lot of guaranteed money. Injuries, lack of motivation, lack of gelling with the other guys on the line, could all have been negatives this year with JP. I don't think the line as a whole would have played better this year with him versus without him.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I would feel worse about JP being gone if:

 

1.) The line with him played great the last few years. Face it, he has never been part of a line that was special. That is not all his fault but he hasn't seemed to be any kind of spark for the OL.

How does the "nothing special" feeling fit with the fact that the line in 2007 gave up the least number of sacks for a Bills team ever? I'm not picking on your opinion. I'm actually curious because at the end of 07 posters here were claiming the Bills had an up-and-coming great line; and, with the addition of James Hardy and the subtraction of Steve Fairchild, the offense was going to be awesome in 08.

[Flbillsfan#1]

NO

 

Brandon told Peters in January there was to be NO new deal in 2008 - he still had 3 years left.

 

 

Brandon admitted to this at the time of the Peters trade.

 

they wanted Peters to play at his current salary and would talk in 2009.

 

Peters had other ideas - but not alot of options

Yeah, he had a great idea, instead of playing GREAT, like he wanted a new contract & was going to PROVE he deserved it, his idea was to TANK the season.

[zazie]

When a player sits-out the entire off- and pre-season, decides to come back the day before the season starts, plays like crap and doesn't give a sh-- that he does, he doesn't deserve a huge new contract. Other guys actually showed-up to off-season activities, and then got paid. Good riddance.

He was doing what his agent told him to do. Maybe his smartest trait is realizing his own intellectual limitations and listening to the person he has hired to watch his back contract wise.

 

Certainly, when you evaluate the eventual outcomes, looks like Peters did very well.... and Brandon did very very badly for the Bills.

 

Peters and his agent never whined once to the media, that was Brandon if you will remember.

 

I have no problem at all with the way Peters conducted himself he was the smartest guy in the room (or repped by the smartest guy) even if you include all the Bills brain trust.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

How does the "nothing special" feeling fit with the fact that the line in 2007 gave up the least number of sacks for a Bills team ever? I'm not picking on your opinion. I'm actually curious because at the end of 07 posters here were claiming the Bills had an up-and-coming great line; and, with the addition of James Hardy and the subtraction of Steve Fairchild, the offense was going to be awesome in 08.

 

The running backs often looked like they had to do a lot on their own. The passing game often had to focus on the short game. Other factors like QB also play into it and clearly other OL besides Peters play into the line play. In any case despite the feeling at the end of 07, after 08 the Bills felt like they had to redo the entire line.

 

Another thing is other teams have not feared the Bills OL. I remember in 2007 before one of the two games with the Bills, Belicheat* was commenting on the Bills during his weekly radio interview, and he* stated that Buffalo has a lot of good players at the SKILL positions, emphasizing the word skill. He specifically mentioned Evans and Lynch and some others. The point is he* was trying to think of good things to say about Buffalo before the game, etc. like coaches always do about opponents, and he never said a word about the OL as an issue for him, but focused on the skill positions as being worthy of respect.

[VOR]

It was notes from a Bills Backers meeting written by Lori Chase. Good enough?

 

http://www.twobillsdrive.com/articles/game_day/127/

That link actually proves my point, i.e. that Brandon started working on Peters' contract right after Evans', which was at the beginning of October. Peters wanted nothing to do with a new deal.

[VOR]

He was doing what his agent told him to do. Maybe his smartest trait is realizing his own intellectual limitations and listening to the person he has hired to watch his back contract wise.

Here is what Peters said when he reported to the Bills last year:

 

My agent (Eugene Parker) called me and was, like, 'Jason, you need to be there on Saturday. You have to be there on Saturday. I'm not taking no for an answer.' And I showed up," Peters said.

 

That tells me that Parker had been telling Peters to show up much earlier, and probably at the latest for the start of training camp, and that the protracted holdout was Peters' decision and his decision alone.

Certainly, when you evaluate the eventual outcomes, looks like Peters did very well.... and Brandon did very very badly for the Bills.

Peters got paid, just as he would have with the Bills although without revealing to the world how unprofessional, and dumb, he is. But the Bills got a 1st round draft pick for him, despite shockingly little interest in him (that is, for "the best LT in the NFL!"), so they didn't do "very very badly" unless Wood and Nelson are total busts.

 

As I told spartacus, Peters will now have to play every down like he IS the best LT in football, to justify his contract and ego. If he doesn't, he'll get crucified by the fans and media, and it doesn't appear that he has the mental makeup to handle that. Toiling in the relative anonymity of Buffalo is a far cry from the harsh media fishbowl of Philly, and Peters will soon learn that cold hard fact. So we'll see who did "very very badly."

[Mickey]

Here is what Peters said when he reported to the Bills last year:

 

 

 

That tells me that Parker had been telling Peters to show up much earlier, and probably at the latest for the start of training camp, and that the protracted holdout was Peters' decision and his decision alone.

 

Peters got paid, just as he would have with the Bills although without revealing to the world how unprofessional, and dumb, he is. But the Bills got a 1st round draft pick for him, despite shockingly little interest in him (that is, for "the best LT in the NFL!"), so they didn't do "very very badly" unless Wood and Nelson are total busts.

 

As I told spartacus, Peters will now have to play every down like he IS the best LT in football, to justify his contract and ego. If he doesn't, he'll get crucified by the fans and media, and it doesn't appear that he has the mental makeup to handle that. Toiling in the relative anonymity of Buffalo is a far cry from the harsh media fishbowl of Philly, and Peters will soon learn that cold hard fact. So we'll see who did "very very badly."

Lets see,

 

Did Peters get out of his contract years ahead of schedule despite claims by Brandonosexuals like yourself that the Bills had the poor idiot by the balls? Yes, yes he did.

 

Did he get more money than the Bills were willing to pay? Why yes, yes he did.

 

Did he become the highest paid OT in the league? Why yes, I do believe he did.

 

Did he get to a larger market with a team that is not about to get sold to Canadians? By George, I think he did!

 

Did he get to a team that is a perennial contender with a respected, successful coach and away from a team that hasn't been able to get out of its own way for 9 years? Somehow that fat, lazy, stupid moron who the Bills had by the balls managed that trick too.

 

Hard to believe that Peters can't see what a huge mistake he made.

[VOR]

Lets see,

 

Did Peters get out of his contract years ahead of schedule despite claims by Brandonosexuals like yourself that the Bills had the poor idiot by the balls? Yes, yes he did.

 

Did he get more money than the Bills were willing to pay? Why yes, yes he did.

 

Did he become the highest paid OT in the league? Why yes, I do believe he did.

 

Did he get to a larger market with a team that is not about to get sold to Canadians? By George, I think he did!

 

Did he get to a team that is a perennial contender with a respected, successful coach and away from a team that hasn't been able to get out of its own way for 9 years? Somehow that fat, lazy, stupid moron who the Bills had by the balls managed that trick too.

 

Hard to believe that Peters can't see what a huge mistake he made.

I can believe it. He's physically gifted for sure, but mentally he's not all there. I'm sure even his agent would admit that, although Peters lovers like yourself won't.

 

The Bills had him by the balls, but realized he'd pull the same stunt again. They made the best of a bad situation. Especially given Peters' poor performance last year with no guarantee he'd ever play well again.

 

And he'd have gotten paid by the Bills. Now he'll be in the spotlight every weekend because he's the 2nd highest-paid player on the team, protecting the highest-paid player. In a huge fishbowl. You know what they say about the grass being greener...

 

What would be hilarious is if the Eagles miss the playoffs, which is very possible, and Reid gets fired, which is what would happen. While the Bills make the playoffs.

[Sisyphean Bills]

That link actually proves my point, i.e. that Brandon started working on Peters' contract right after Evans', which was at the beginning of October. Peters wanted nothing to do with a new deal.

So, in other words, you agree that Brandon said he told Peters he wasn't going to negotiate a new deal until after the Evans negotiation concluded. Exactly what I wrote.

[Sisyphean Bills]

The running backs often looked like they had to do a lot on their own. The passing game often had to focus on the short game. Other factors like QB also play into it and clearly other OL besides Peters play into the line play. In any case despite the feeling at the end of 07, after 08 the Bills felt like they had to redo the entire line.

 

Another thing is other teams have not feared the Bills OL. I remember in 2007 before one of the two games with the Bills, Belicheat* was commenting on the Bills during his weekly radio interview, and he* stated that Buffalo has a lot of good players at the SKILL positions, emphasizing the word skill. He specifically mentioned Evans and Lynch and some others. The point is he* was trying to think of good things to say about Buffalo before the game, etc. like coaches always do about opponents, and he never said a word about the OL as an issue for him, but focused on the skill positions as being worthy of respect.

Thanks for the response. I tend to agree and felt the "least number of sacks" stat was overblown. Effective line play isn't about having 1 stud and a bunch of marshmallows. If you look at the Rams, they had Orlando Pace, one of the best LTs of all time, and they still had many problems up front, couldn't protect the QB (sacks came from the blindside even) and had a sputtering running game. Not so coincidentally, Dick Jauron hired a coach out of St. Louis to install the same system here.

[BillsVet]

The Bills had him by the balls, but realized he'd pull the same stunt again. They made the best of a bad situation. Especially given Peters' poor performance last year with no guarantee he'd ever play well again.

 

And he'd have gotten paid by the Bills. Now he'll be in the spotlight every weekend because he's the 2nd highest-paid player on the team, protecting the highest-paid player. In a huge fishbowl. You know what they say about the grass being greener...

 

What would be hilarious is if the Eagles miss the playoffs, which is very possible, and Reid gets fired, which is what would happen. While the Bills make the playoffs.

 

I'm still unsure why fans focus on Peters' intelligence or supposed lack thereof. It seems as though some fans love ripping a guy who ultimately got his way with a bigger deal from a more relevant NFL franchise.

 

NFL players focus on playing the game, not negotiating contracts. They hire an agent to do that for them, so overall intelligence has no bearing on this situation. Eugene Parker has a history of winning for his clients, which is exactly what he got from Buffalo with the trade. He therefore benefits, as does Peters.

 

I would stop marginalizing a player who got paid and is now playing for a team that has a real shot at going deep into the playoffs. As for Andy Reid, he's got some issues off the field, but 5 NFC Championship games in 7 seasons tells me a lot about how darn good he is. The Bills meanwhile cannot approach that level of achievement. Therefore, ragging on the Eagles should be the last thing anyone should do, unless of course they visit RWS.

[VOR]

So, in other words, you agree that Brandon said he told Peters he wasn't going to negotiate a new deal until after the Evans negotiation concluded. Exactly what I wrote.

The question was whether Peters would get a new deal during the 2008 season. The answer was yes.

[VOR]

I'm still unsure why fans focus on Peters' intelligence or supposed lack thereof. It seems as though some fans love ripping a guy who ultimately got his way with a bigger deal from a more relevant NFL franchise.

 

NFL players focus on playing the game, not negotiating contracts. They hire an agent to do that for them, so overall intelligence has no bearing on this situation. Eugene Parker has a history of winning for his clients, which is exactly what he got from Buffalo with the trade. He therefore benefits, as does Peters.

 

I would stop marginalizing a player who got paid and is now playing for a team that has a real shot at going deep into the playoffs. As for Andy Reid, he's got some issues off the field, but 5 NFC Championship games in 7 seasons tells me a lot about how darn good he is. The Bills meanwhile cannot approach that level of achievement. Therefore, ragging on the Eagles should be the last thing anyone should do, unless of course they visit RWS.

The jab at his intelligence was in response to the "Hard to believe Peters can't see..." sentence. It's apparent his protracted holdout was his idea and against the wishes of his agent, which tells me that he's as dumb as his Wonderlic indicated. His comments about not caring if he surrendered a sack because he wasn't getting paid as much as he thought he was worth only confirmed that more. And seemingly as a result of his holdout, he had a subpar season. The Eagles better hope that was the reason, and that he's not giving-up double-digit sacks next year.

 

As for the Eagles, I wasn't slamming their success. I merely commented on how bloodthirsty their fans and media are, and how he can't merely hide away like he did in Buffalo. I also said that IF they miss the playoffs, which is a real possibility, then Reid will probably be fired. And then Peters going to "a perennial playoff/relevant NFL team" won't materialize. But hey, at least he's still getting paid.