Anyone Agree with Tim Graham on This?

[The Dean]

You're the one who things the sacks allowed numbers are a conspiracy against Jason Peters.

 

 

I do? That's news to me.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

All I can say is I wish Conrad Dobler had still been with the Bills last year. Conrad would have taken time out from slugging an opposing DL in the face (which he did quite often) to slug JP's face after a ridiculous sack. Conrad set up the system the Bills had then (late 70's to early 80's during the successful Knox era) of having OL's on the Bills pay a fine into a kitty every time they allowed a sack. The money was used for a big party at the end of the year. With Peters they could have had a great party last year. OL realize that sacks are the most important key. Usually sacks end a drive, even cause fumbles or QB injuries. And instead of thinking Peter's sack totals may be inflated, how may QB hurries or hits on the QB's after a hurry up pass were caused by Peters as well as outright sacks. The point is you can't have someone with Peter's attitude on the line, and you can't reward him after his attitude with the biggest contract ever for the Bills.

 

One sad thing about all this is that the whole situation is the hallmark of a dysfunctional, not respected team from the FO through the coaching staff. NE* and other successful, non-cheating teams have holdouts also of key players. But I just can't see Belicheat* or Parcells allowing Peters to just be a jerk once he comes back and risk his QB's neck. They would have called him out and benched him at least. DJ seemed to be worried of further offending JP and constantly praised him, even when he clearly wasn't in the best shape at the beginning of the year.

[Fingon]

I do? That's news to me.

add to that the bad feelings many had with Peters, and it suggest his figure might be manufactured.

[BuffaloBill]

JP was an overpaid fat POS. I, for one, am glad he's gone......although it was really fun booing him.

 

 

Would you please articulate your opinion a little more clearly. You seem to waffle on this one a bit too much.

[toddgurley]

Many thanks, Lori. Wasn't Peters replaced at LT in some of those early games by Walker or Chambers, however? I could have sworn that Walker played a good bit of LT early in the year, but maybe I'm getting myself confused with the prior year when Chambers/Walker covered for Peters when he was hurt at year end.

 

 

ya you are right matt. I think our 2nd game was in Florida (jax). Peters did get replace a couple of times because of the heat and lack of conditioning. Imagine that, jason peters being out of shape-

[toddgurley]

I am too lazy right now to look it up, but if you have been reading this board you will know that someone else already did an analysis of this. The sacks charged against him last year were inflated. The Bills themselves (according to media reports) also concluded the same thing.

 

The easiest way to determine the worth of JP is compare what happened in the Giant game at the end of 2007 before and after he got hurt.

 

 

Inflated or not, he got beat by rookies and abused by joey porter. Do you think he should have made the pro bowl? No-bottom line

[toddgurley]

hey dean check this out man. Even is inflated, he can still see how bad peters did. Cut the sack number in half and he still had a bad year compared to other LT. I know he missed Training camp but that is his fault.

 

here is link from a KC chief site who has no bias towards peters : http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/3/13/79...allowed-left-ta

 

 

Left Tackle (sacks allowed)

 

1. Ryan Clady (Broncos) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

2. Michael Roos (Titans) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

3. Tra Thomas (Eagles) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

3. Orlando Pace (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)

5. Jake Long (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

6. Jordan Gross (Panthers) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

6. Jammal Brown (Saints) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)

6. Jared Gaither (Ravens) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)

6. Marcus McNeill (Chargers) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)

6. Tony Ugoh (Colts) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)

6. Chris Samuels (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

6. Todd Weiner (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)

13. Walter Jones (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

14. D’Brickashaw Ferguson (Jets) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

14. Bryant McKinnie (Vikings) 4.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)

14. Max Starks (Steelers) 4.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)

17. Joe Thomas (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

17. Branden Albert (Cheifs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)

19. Levi Brown (Bengals) 5.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)

20. Mike Gandy (Cardinals) 6.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)

21. David Diehl (Giants) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

22. Flozell Adams (Cowboys) 7.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)

23. Khalif Barnes (Jags) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

23. Chad Clifton (Packers) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)

23. Kwame Harris (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)

27. Joe Staley (49ers) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

28. Donald Penn (Bucs) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

29. Jeff Backus (Lions) 9.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)

30. John St. Clair (Bears) 9.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)

31. Duane Brown (Texans) 11.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

31. Jason Peters (Bills) 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

 

 

PETERS SHOULD NOT HAVE MADE PRO BOWL-BOTTOM LINE

[scoring is not hardy]

hey dean check this out man. Even is inflated, he can still see how bad peters did. Cut the sack number in half and he still had a bad year compared to other LT

 

here is link from a KC chief site who has no biast towards peters : http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/3/13/79...allowed-left-ta

 

 

Left Tackle (sacks allowed)

 

1. Ryan Clady (Broncos) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

2. Michael Roos (Titans) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

3. Tra Thomas (Eagles) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

3. Orlando Pace (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)

5. Jake Long (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

6. Jordan Gross (Panthers) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

6. Jammal Brown (Saints) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)

6. Jared Gaither (Ravens) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)

6. Marcus McNeill (Chargers) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)

6. Tony Ugoh (Colts) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)

6. Chris Samuels (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

6. Todd Weiner (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)

13. Walter Jones (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

14. D’Brickashaw Ferguson (Jets) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

14. Bryant McKinnie (Vikings) 4.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)

14. Max Starks (Steelers) 4.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)

17. Joe Thomas (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

17. Branden Albert (Cheifs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)

19. Levi Brown (Bengals) 5.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)

20. Mike Gandy (Cardinals) 6.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)

21. David Diehl (Giants) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

22. Flozell Adams (Cowboys) 7.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)

23. Khalif Barnes (Jags) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

23. Chad Clifton (Packers) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)

23. Kwame Harris (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)

27. Joe Staley (49ers) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

28. Donald Penn (Bucs) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

29. Jeff Backus (Lions) 9.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)

30. John St. Clair (Bears) 9.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)

31. Duane Brown (Texans) 11.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

31. Jason Peters (Bills) 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts) *PRO-BOWL*

 

 

PETERS SHOULD NOT HAVE MADE PRO BOWL-BOTTOM LINE

You should give this its own thread

[toddgurley]

You should give this its own thread

 

 

i just did and they closed it on me saying it was out there already. even though i search it and found nothing

[VOR]

Probably not. That's the point. Established stars are less likely to be credited with the sack. Young guys probably get dinged more. Add to that the bad feelings many had with Peters, and it suggest his figure might be manufactured. As far as I can tell, there is no definitive objective standard for an allowed sack.

The sack numbers are impartial. They're kept by STATS, Inc., which is the NFL's official stat keeper.

[Lori]

You should give this its own thread

I disagree.

 

Following a request for previous discussions of the 11.5-sack stat:

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=87451

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=87104

 

And one with the exact list:

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=86023

[toddgurley]

I disagree.

 

Following a request for previous discussions of the 11.5-sack stat:

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=87451

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=87104

 

And one with the exact list:

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=86023

 

 

ok thanks lori. When i did the search for LT stats or jason peters stats-nothing came up, but its obviously out there

[The Dean]

Fignon,

 

I can see why you may have reached the conclusion I believe "the sacks allowed numbers are a conspiracy against Jason Peters", based on that post. So, let me be a little clearer to avoid confusion.

 

First of all, there is a vast difference between a possible bias by a scorekeeper (note I said might be manufactured) and a conspiracy that is purposeful and involves multiple parties. My suggestion had nothing to do with a "conspiracy" but allowed for the possibility that star players get the benefit of the call if it isn't crystal clear.

 

As nobody here can give any official (or even codified unofficial) definition for what constitutes an "allowed sack", I conclude this stat is at the discretion of the scorekeeper* (or person assigning the stat). With no solid criteria to follow, the person assigning the stat has a lot of leeway. Many (if not most) sacks are a result of many factors. Poorly run route, great coverage, QB indecision, missed assignment by a RB who was supposed to stay in, missed assignment by one or more OL, missed blocks, etc. It's not hard to imagine that, when faced with some indecision, a scorekeeper might not assign a sack to an established star, and instead give it to a different player who's activity on the play was questionable. And, since I have NO idea who actually watched the game, or tape, and assigns this unofficial stat, it isn't out of the question that person may not have a very favorable opinion of some players, which may impact his judgment.

 

*For this post, a "scorekeeper" refers to whoever assigns the "sack allowed" stat. We (at least I) currently have no idea who does that, or what criteria they follow.

 

Now, I don't conclude that whoever counted Peters' sacks was biased against him, but since I know little about the process I can't say it didn't happen, either. If this is done by a home-team lackey, it might very well be tainted by the holdout. Again, I'm not saying it is. I do know there have been different "sacks allowed" figures tossed around, this year, and everyone seems to want to use the one that has the most sacks for Peters. I know from watching some of the sacks on replay, I have questioned more than one of the sacks that most think belong to JP. With that said, even using the lower sacks allowed stat, JP had some issues this past season, and allowed too many sacks. But he was only in his second year of playing the position, and missed all or the OTAs, TC and Preseason. Maybe other players have played well after missing all that time. So what? Maybe Jason needs the work more than some of the others. Seeing as how he just started playing that position, I'm guessing he needs far more work to be great at it than guys who played it all through high school and college.

 

Nobody KNOWS what eventually will become of Peters. According to many far more knowledgeable than you or I, he is among the most talented specimens they have ever seen. I agree it will take work, but I have yet to conclude he can't/won't do the work, as I don't have enough data. He worked very hard, except for one year, with the Bills. Again, he is still learning to play the position. to compare him to HOF players (one retired and one way past his prime) is absurd, at this point it time. Let's revisit this in five years, or so.

 

hey dean check this out man. Even is inflated, he can still see how bad peters did. Cut the sack number in half and he still had a bad year compared to other LT

 

here is link from a KC chief site who has no biast towards peters : http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/3/13/79...allowed-left-ta

 

This if from that link:

 

Found these stats posted by Balto at WPI (he didn't link to where he got them, so I'll just have to take his word for their accuracy) and thought it would be an interesting conversation piece:

 

But, other than you have no idea where they came from...oh, wait...

 

And, while Peters allowed too many stats, and had a sub-par year, sacks aren't the only measure of an offensive lineman. TO dropped among the most passes in the NFL last year. Does that me he sucks, even though he put up good numbers and had 10 TDs? The tunnel-vision by some on this board is astounding.

 

The sack numbers are impartial. They're kept by STATS, Inc., which is the NFL's official stat keeper.

 

So I have read (from Tim G), yet none of the articles with the sacks, that I have read, source STATS Inc, or give a link to the historical data, criteria for assigning an allowed stat, etc. I can't find anything at their website that helps clarify things, either. An unofficial stat, with no detailed official criteria and no apparent methodology for decoding what happened, leaves a lot of room for doubt, in my mind.

 

But either way, Peters allowed too many sacks last year. That in no way, given the context, suggests he will always allow that many sacks.

[Cynical]

hey dean check this out man. Even is inflated, he can still see how bad peters did. Cut the sack number in half and he still had a bad year compared to other LT

 

"Found these stats posted by Balto at WPI (he didn't link to where he got them, so I'll just have to take his word for their accuracy) and thought it would be an interesting conversation piece:"

 

AND

 

"The second thing that jumps out at you is Jason Peters, LT for the Bills going to the Pro Bowl while giving up the most sacks of any other LT in the NFL (11.5) in only 13 sacks."

 

So, to re-iterate, this guys whole analysis is based on stat he himself cannot verify the accuracy of.

 

Yeah, he knows.

[Lori]

Without reading back through the entire thread, I'm not sure if anyone went back and dug up this earlier piece from Graham:

How many sacks did Peters really surrender?

[The Dean]

Without reading back through the entire thread, I'm not sure if anyone went back and dug up this earlier piece from Graham:

How many sacks did Peters really surrender?

 

 

Thanks, Lo. Had I remembered that article I could have saved a LOT of typing.

[VOR]

Without reading back through the entire thread, I'm not sure if anyone went back and dug up this earlier piece from Graham:

How many sacks did Peters really surrender?

Ouch! Joyner had him at 12 sacks? While I don't know how much I can trust his analysis, the fact that he tagged Peters with 12 and STATS, Inc. tagged Peters with 11.5 tells me that it was indeed in the double digits.

 

But wait, Tim just wrote an article saying that losing Peters will be a blow for the Bills' offense. But that other article said he surrendered 12 sacks. So which is it?

[Lori]

Why can't it be both? Walker on the right side and a mediocre (compared to his 2007 standard) Peters on the left might still turn out to be better than sliding Butler outside and putting Walker up against those elite passrushers. Guess we'll find that out one way or the other in September ...

[toddgurley]

Thanks, Lo. Had I remembered that article I could have saved a LOT of typing.

 

 

I am glad you found that, you proved my point. The article says there are 2 companies that record sacks. Now, granted that Tom Curran of NBC says this about the stat sack:

 

"The sack stat -- who gets them and who gets blamed for them -- is one of the most bogus in football since they can be the by-product of so many things. They can be attributed to excellent coverage, a skittish quarterback, miscommunication, a teammate's pressure. Sacks are like snowflakes, people. Each one different."

 

With that being said, the 2 COMPANIES/PEOPLE WHO TRACK THIS STAT ARE:

 

1. STATS, INC-Who said that Peters gave up 11.5 sacks for a loss of 106.5 yards.

2. KC JOYNER-as Tim Graham calls him in this article-"The football Scientist" says the Peters gave up 12 sacks!! In which 5.5 were in ONE-on-ONE cases alone. You cant really argue the one on one sacks. Also, the one-on-one sacks alone would make PETERS the 19th RANKED LT in the league. NOT WHAT YOU CALL PRO BOWL MATERIAL HUH?

 

And to quote VOR from earlier-"While I don't know how much I can trust his analysis, the fact that he tagged Peters with 12 and STATS, Inc. tagged Peters with 11.5 tells me that it was indeed in the double digits."

 

I would have to agree with that style of thinking, of course you probably disagree-

 

And it was STATS, INC who came up with the LT sack list I posted earlier. Thanks for finding that article Lori

[The Dean]

Ouch! Joyner had him at 12 sacks? While I don't know how much I can trust his analysis, the fact that he tagged Peters with 12 and STATS, Inc. tagged Peters with 11.5 tells me that it was indeed in the double digits.

 

But wait, Tim just wrote an article saying that losing Peters will be a blow for the Bills' offense. But that other article said he surrendered 12 sacks. So which is it?

 

 

When Peters comes to camp and preseason he doesn't give up those kinds of sacks...and least he hasn't. So, had the Bills signed Peters, we can assume he would be at training camp and play in preseason. And remember, sacks aren't the only measure of a LT. Walker could give up fewer sacks and still play worse, overall than Peters. I am praying that doesn't happen.