Looks like the Patriots found themselves a diamond in

[MattM]

Meriweather was very good last year. Stats aren't all that reliable for safeties, but he had four picks and 9 passes defensed: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MeriBr99.htm. Plus he had 79 tackles. Those are strong numbers for a safety. Whitner, who I have defended and who I like, had no INTs and 1 pass defensed: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WhitDo20.htm. The flipside is that the the Bills finished 4th in TD passes allowed and NE finished 27th. In any event, when the Bills played the Pats last year, Meriweather looked like one of the better players on the team.

 

Re 08, you should know better than to judge it so soon. Loaded teams phase in their rookies slowly.

 

Only problem with your argument about their last few drafts is that a large number of those guys either are no longer on the Pats* or not even in the League anymore, so arguments about having trouble getting past entrenched starters is bunk. Their last three drafts have stunk, IMHO, with Mayo being the sole exception (I'm not sold at all on Meriweather personally, despite the stats) but since they're the Pats* the League and its critics knob gobble them. For a more balanced view, check out Pete Prisco's recent review of the 2006 draft--the Bills got a B plus and the Pats* a D.....

[generaLee83]

Last year it was LB Jerod Mayo and now this year it's Patrick Chung. I loathe the Patriots but begrudgingly I have to respect them. It's mostly that Belichick, I can't stand him but boy I wish he was our coach.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patr...m_chung/?page=1

 

He's another interesting piece of data I ran across. These Patriots seem to have a tendency to sign players who never even have played college football. If that's not a good indication of good coaching/system then I don't know what is! I thought we did a fantastic job in developing OT Jason Peters but these guys are taking them right out of the junkpile.

 

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/43803877.html

 

How is Mayo a diamond in the rough?

 

Wasn't he the 7th overall pick in last years draft?

[Preston Ridlehuber]

No, I believe that it firmly belongs on a Bills' board.

 

 

 

I should have just said a diamond and a successor to Rodney Harrison, that would be really more accurate to what I meant.

 

 

Thanks, you make my point for me. The Giants just plain out muscled the Bills, offensively and defensively. Jumbo Elliott did a nice job handling Bruce when he needed to and when Smith did get to Hostetler he didn't knock the ball loose for a TD but instead had to settle for a safety. I'm still in shock that he was able to hang on to that ball.

 

The Giants' DBs hammered Reed and he sure didn't look like he wanted the ball too much as the game wore on. The Giants' defensive gameplan was Belichick's, it was even sent to the HOF. It was rather simple, employ 6 DBs and keep everything in front of them and just let the Bills run. offensively the Giants kept the ball on the ground and made key throws to move the chains. They didn't care if OJ Andersen was tackled for a loss, it kept the clock running.

 

 

See the above response. Shredded the defense??! Although Thurman is a special player a lot of that yardage was allowed. The Giants were not going to let Kelly beat them. Earlier that year Kelly was ready to destroy them in the Meadowlands but he got hurt. The Bills still landed winning that game but in hindsight we paid the price for that victory, the Giants got a good look at the no huddle and were more prepared to play against it in the Super Bowl. If it wasn't Belichick's best moment, then why did his defensive gameplan get ENSHRINED IN THE HALL OF FAME?

Look, the Bills played one heck of a game, played good enough to where they could have won it but so did the Giants, they were more physical and wore us down as the game went on.

 

They didn't enshrine it in the Hall. It may be in there as part of the Super Bowl story. If the Bills defense gets the ball back and the point per minute ratio holds, the bills score 28 to 30 points. Did they allow Thurman that 38 yard TD? Did they allo the Bills to get into makeable, albeit difficult, field goal range? If the Bills run Thurman more, the DB's would have had to come up and play the run and Kelly would have went over the top. Unfortunately, Levy and Kelly were stubborn and the defense sucked.

[Tipster19]

How is Mayo a diamond in the rough?

 

Wasn't he the 7th overall pick in last years draft?

 

Can we get away from this diamond in the rough thing? I never said that, I said that it "Looks like the Patriots found themselves a diamond in 2nd rd pick Safety Patrick Chung". I did also mentioned LB Jerod Mayo in the post and referred to him as a diamond also and he is.

 

They didn't enshrine it in the Hall. It may be in there as part of the Super Bowl story. If the Bills defense gets the ball back and the point per minute ratio holds, the bills score 28 to 30 points. Did they allow Thurman that 38 yard TD? Did they allo the Bills to get into makeable, albeit difficult, field goal range? If the Bills run Thurman more, the DB's would have had to come up and play the run and Kelly would have went over the top. Unfortunately, Levy and Kelly were stubborn and the defense sucked.

 

The only two facts that you stated were about allowing Thurman the TD (and it was a 31 yder, not 38) and the Bills being allowed to get into a makeable FG.

 

Look, I'm not trying to argue about Super Bowl XXV but if we are to debate it then one of us has to change our point. I'm talking facts and you are debating hypothetically. The rest of what you are saying is conjecture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXV

 

Here's the quote from Wikipedia about the gameplan. "The Defensive game plan for the Giants, written by defensive coordinator Bill Belichick, has been included in the Pro Football Hall of Fame." It sure looks like it's been enshrined to me.

[VOR]

Looks like the Pats are going back to the college-wrestler-no-college-football well, like they did with Neal. It's a real longshot as it is. Neal played HS football, but there was no mention if Porter did.

[The Dean]

Can we get away from this diamond in the rough thing? I never said that, I said that it "Looks like the Patriots found themselves a diamond in 2nd rd pick Safety Patrick Chung". I did also mentioned LB Jerod Mayo in the post and referred to him as a diamond also and he is.

 

 

When you pick in the 1st round, you are shopping in a diamond store. When you are shopping in the top 10 of the first round, you are shopping in a fine diamond store. Picking up a diamond is really to be expected.

 

So, with Mayo they came out of the diamond store with a diamond. And, with Chung, who has yet to play a game (but who was a highly rated player at his position) they may have found another good player...er.."diamond".

 

Maybe the problem here is the use of the term "diamond" for quality player, and the apparent awe that is being expressed that a team might actually find a good player in the 1st or 2nd round. Are you planning a thread on every pick that might work out, by every team in the league, or just the AFC East?

 

...or just the Pats*?

[eball]

I've never heard of a 2nd round pick being called a "diamond in the rough." Aren't you supposed to find good players and potential starters there?

[Preston Ridlehuber]

Can we get away from this diamond in the rough thing? I never said that, I said that it "Looks like the Patriots found themselves a diamond in 2nd rd pick Safety Patrick Chung". I did also mentioned LB Jerod Mayo in the post and referred to him as a diamond also and he is.

 

 

 

The only two facts that you stated were about allowing Thurman the TD (and it was a 31 yder, not 38) and the Bills being allowed to get into a makeable FG.

 

Look, I'm not trying to argue about Super Bowl XXV but if we are to debate it then one of us has to change our point. I'm talking facts and you are debating hypothetically. The rest of what you are saying is conjecture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXV

 

Here's the quote from Wikipedia about the gameplan. "The Defensive game plan for the Giants, written by defensive coordinator Bill Belichick, has been included in the Pro Football Hall of Fame." It sure looks like it's been enshrined to me.

 

Wikipedia? I could make that entry. Find another source.

[Tipster19]

...or just the Pats*?

 

I'm very concerned with the Patriots. Shouldn't I be?

 

I've never heard of a 2nd round pick being called a "diamond in the rough."

 

Wow! I got to believe that you're pulling my leg at this point.

 

Wikipedia? I could make that entry. Find another source.

 

Just what are you disputing or discrediting?

[dave mcbride]

Only problem with your argument about their last few drafts is that a large number of those guys either are no longer on the Pats* or not even in the League anymore, so arguments about having trouble getting past entrenched starters is bunk. Their last three drafts have stunk, IMHO, with Mayo being the sole exception (I'm not sold at all on Meriweather personally, despite the stats) but since they're the Pats* the League and its critics knob gobble them. For a more balanced view, check out Pete Prisco's recent review of the 2006 draft--the Bills got a B plus and the Pats* a D.....

The draft is just a piece of a larger puzzle. The other key parts are your own existing roster, free agents/trades, and the coaching staff. Belichick has the last area covered, obviously.

 

The existing roster is excellent, and the free agent moves over the years have had their share of hits: Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Mike Vrabel (from Pitt), and even Sammy Morris. I think the point is that if you draft an offensive tackle and he fails, it really doesn't matter that much because you're set with Matt Light. If Chad Jackson fails, they're still alright at WR. The point is to continue to improve the roster as much as possible via the draft, and to accept that there will be a lot of guys who either don't pan out or simply aren't good enough to beat out a very good player in front of them.

 

Re: the draft - this is key issue vis a vis this thread. What I and everyone else have neglected to mention are the draft pick trades the Pats have done for Randy Moss and Wes Welker. The two of them constitute the best receiving tandem in the league, and if anyone needs proof of that look at the stats of the slow-footed, average armed, and moderately accurate hadn't-really-played-an-important-game-since-high-school QB who threw the ball to them last year. For a second, a fourth and seventh, they landed themselves one of the most prolific receiving tandems in NFL history.

[NorCal Aaron]

What I find more notable is that Patrick Chung is the second Chung the Pats have drafted. Do they own the franchise on Chinese American players?

[Kelly the Dog]

The Patriots have had very good luck drafting Chungs. I recall when they drafted Eugene Chung, the 300 pound tackle out of Virginia Tech, my friend's mom called him up and said, "That's alotta Korean for your dollar."

[MattM]

The draft is just a piece of a larger puzzle. The other key parts are your own existing roster, free agents/trades, and the coaching staff. Belichick has the last area covered, obviously.

 

The existing roster is excellent, and the free agent moves over the years have had their share of hits: Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Mike Vrabel (from Pitt), and even Sammy Morris. I think the point is that if you draft an offensive tackle and he fails, it really doesn't matter that much because you're set with Matt Light. If Chad Jackson fails, they're still alright at WR. The point is to continue to improve the roster as much as possible via the draft, and to accept that there will be a lot of guys who either don't pan out or simply aren't good enough to beat out a very good player in front of them.

 

Re: the draft - this is key issue vis a vis this thread. What I and everyone else have neglected to mention are the draft pick trades the Pats have done for Randy Moss and Wes Welker. The two of them constitute the best receiving tandem in the league, and if anyone needs proof of that look at the stats of the slow-footed, average armed, and moderately accurate hadn't-really-played-an-important-game-since-high-school QB who threw the ball to them last year. For a second, a fourth and seventh, they landed themselves one of the most prolific receiving tandems in NFL history.

 

 

Welker I'll give them credit for, but the Moss deal was an obvious example of the rich getting richer since he only would approve a deal to them, so it isn't like the Bills or anyone else could have made that trade even if they'd wanted to. Gregg Easterbrook wrote a good article during Spygate on how cheating to win had ancillary benefits for the Cheatahs, like free agents taking below market deals to go there. Moss is the primo example of that as was Fred Taylor this year. I strongly suspect, however, that we'll see less of this in the future, as their success peters out. I'll go out on a limb right now and call that the Pats* of the future will be nowhere near as successful as the Pats* of the past--their recent drafts being evidence of this, as well as their aging roster and the large number of FA's they need to re-sign in the next one to two years......

[NorCal Aaron]

The Patriots have had very good luck drafting Chungs. I recall when they drafted Eugene Chung, the 300 pound tackle out of Virginia Tech, my friend's mom called him up and said, "That's alotta Korean for your dollar."

 

Eugene was Korean? I stand corrected.

[Kelly the Dog]

Re: the draft - this is key issue vis a vis this thread. What I and everyone else have neglected to mention are the draft pick trades the Pats have done for Randy Moss and Wes Welker. The two of them constitute the best receiving tandem in the league, and if anyone needs proof of that look at the stats of the slow-footed, average armed, and moderately accurate hadn't-really-played-an-important-game-since-high-school QB who threw the ball to them last year. For a second, a fourth and seventh, they landed themselves one of the most prolific receiving tandems in NFL history.

 

They cheated and stole Welker.

[Tipster19]

I'll go out on a limb right now and call that the Pats* of the future will be nowhere near as successful as the Pats* of the past--their recent drafts being evidence of this, as well as their aging roster and the large number of FA's they need to re-sign in the next one to two years......

 

This is reason for my post and my biggest concern. When the Patriots keep on adding pieces like Mayo, and I believe Chung, it keeps them rolling. They are incorporating a bunch of quality youth to their program.

[Beerball]

I have one word for the pats*

 

uppauass (must be said with an Italian accent)

[dubs]

With regard to the acceptance that everything the Patriots do is infallible and astute, I'm reminded of Marv Levy's old saying:

 

"Once you get a reputation as an early riser, you can sleep in as much as you want."

 

The Patriots are typically given the benefit of the doubt...even when their moves leave people scratching their heads. The Bills on the other hand, have a reputation as an organization that sleeps in all the time.

 

 

That a great point and I totally agree. Everyone just takes it as gospel that the Pats and Belichek draft incredibly well. The fact is they are as good at the draft as most other teams in the league. Their real differentiator is the fact that they have picked up some great free agents and are better preparing their team week to week than most other staffs in the NFL. Has anyone even bothered to look at their past drafts? They've had some good picks and some terrible ones.

 

2008 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee

2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado

3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan

3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State

4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn

5 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA

6 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska

2007 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)

4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)

5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State

6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist

6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame

6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State

6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State

7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC

7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota

2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida

3 86 David Thomas TE Texas

4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa

4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan T California

6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida

6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame

6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska

7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

2005 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 32 Logan Mankins G Fresno State

3 84 Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa State

3 100 Nick Kaczur T Toledo

4 133 James Sanders SAF Fresno State

5 170 Ryan Claridge LB Nevada-Las Vegas

7 230 Matt Cassel QB USC

7 255 Andy Stokes TE William Penn

2004 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 21 Vince Wilfork NT Miami (Fla.)

1 32 Benjamin Watson TE Georgia

2 63 Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State

3 95 Guss Scott SAF Florida

4 113 Dexter Reid SAF North Carolina

4 128 Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas

5 164 P.K. Sam WR Florida State

7 233 Christian Morton CB Illinois

2003 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 13 Ty Warren DE Texas A&M

2 36 Eugene Wilson FS Illinois

2 45 Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M

4 117 Dan Klecko DT Temple

4 120 Asante Samuel CB Central Florida

5 164 Dan Koppen C Boston College

6 201 Kliff Kingsbury QB Texas Tech

7 234 Spencer Nead TE Brigham Young

7 239 Tully Banta-Cain LB California

7 243 Ethan Kelley NT Baylor

2002 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 21 Daniel Graham TE Colorado

2 65 Deion Branch WR Louisville

4 117 Rohan Davey QB Louisiana State

4 126 Jarvis Green DE Louisiana State

7 237 Antwoine Womack RB Virginia

7 253 David Givens WR Notre Dame

2001 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 6 Richard Seymour DT Georgia

2 48 Matt Light T Purdue

3 86 Brock Williams CB Notre Dame

4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida

4 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame

5 163 Hakim Akbar DB Washington

6 180 Arther Love TE South Carolina State

6 200 Leonard Myers CB Miami (Fla.)

7 216 Owen Pochman K Brigham Young

7 239 T.J. Turner LB Michigan State

2000 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

2 46 Adrian Klemm T Hawaii

3 76 J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State

4 127 Greg Randall T Michigan State

5 141 Dave Stachelski TE Boise State

5 161 Jeff Marriott -- Missouri

6 187 Antwan Harris CB Virginia

6 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan

6 201 David Nugent DT Purdue

7 226 Casey Tisdale -- New Mexico

7 239 Patrick Pass RB Georgia

[Preston Ridlehuber]

I'm very concerned with the Patriots. Shouldn't I be?

 

 

 

Wow! I got to believe that you're pulling my leg at this point.

 

 

 

Just what are you disputing or discrediting?

 

 

Look, I don't want to belabor something that happened 17 year's ago. But,

 

1) No one considers Wikipedia a reliable source. Anyone can go in and enter what they want.

2) The hall of fame does not "enshrine" anything but human beings

3) Things such as balls, spikes, etc, may be in the hall as part of the history of the game but I have found nothing that shows that the Hall of Fame has bestowed any special significance to the game plan.

[MattM]

That a great point and I totally agree. Everyone just takes it as gospel that the Pats and Belichek draft incredibly well. The fact is they are as good at the draft as most other teams in the league. Their real differentiator is the fact that they have picked up some great free agents and are better preparing their team week to week than most other staffs in the NFL. Has anyone even bothered to look at their past drafts? They've had some good picks and some terrible ones.

 

2008 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee

2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado

3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan

3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State

4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn

5 153 Matt Slater WR UCLA

6 197 Bo Ruud LB Nebraska

2007 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)

4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)

5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State

6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist

6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame

6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State

6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State

7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC

7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota

2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida

3 86 David Thomas TE Texas

4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa

4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan T California

6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida

6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame

6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska

7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

2005 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 32 Logan Mankins G Fresno State

3 84 Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa State

3 100 Nick Kaczur T Toledo

4 133 James Sanders SAF Fresno State

5 170 Ryan Claridge LB Nevada-Las Vegas

7 230 Matt Cassel QB USC

7 255 Andy Stokes TE William Penn

2004 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 21 Vince Wilfork NT Miami (Fla.)

1 32 Benjamin Watson TE Georgia

2 63 Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State

3 95 Guss Scott SAF Florida

4 113 Dexter Reid SAF North Carolina

4 128 Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas

5 164 P.K. Sam WR Florida State

7 233 Christian Morton CB Illinois

2003 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 13 Ty Warren DE Texas A&M

2 36 Eugene Wilson FS Illinois

2 45 Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M

4 117 Dan Klecko DT Temple

4 120 Asante Samuel CB Central Florida

5 164 Dan Koppen C Boston College

6 201 Kliff Kingsbury QB Texas Tech

7 234 Spencer Nead TE Brigham Young

7 239 Tully Banta-Cain LB California

7 243 Ethan Kelley NT Baylor

2002 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 21 Daniel Graham TE Colorado

2 65 Deion Branch WR Louisville

4 117 Rohan Davey QB Louisiana State

4 126 Jarvis Green DE Louisiana State

7 237 Antwoine Womack RB Virginia

7 253 David Givens WR Notre Dame

2001 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 6 Richard Seymour DT Georgia

2 48 Matt Light T Purdue

3 86 Brock Williams CB Notre Dame

4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida

4 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame

5 163 Hakim Akbar DB Washington

6 180 Arther Love TE South Carolina State

6 200 Leonard Myers CB Miami (Fla.)

7 216 Owen Pochman K Brigham Young

7 239 T.J. Turner LB Michigan State

2000 - New England Patriots

Rd Sel # Player Position School

2 46 Adrian Klemm T Hawaii

3 76 J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State

4 127 Greg Randall T Michigan State

5 141 Dave Stachelski TE Boise State

5 161 Jeff Marriott -- Missouri

6 187 Antwan Harris CB Virginia

6 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan

6 201 David Nugent DT Purdue

7 226 Casey Tisdale -- New Mexico

7 239 Patrick Pass RB Georgia

 

Two out of their last three drafts before this year's (2006 and 2007) have stunk, actually, and that was with Dimitroff (now Falcons GM) and/or Pioli (ditto, KC). Last year's class had Mayo, a 2nd round CB most pundits thought was a 4th round reach (Wheatley), a 3rd round LB (Crable) who didn't play a down (even before going on IR mid-season) and who now sounds like he's in Belicheat's doghouse, a 3rd QB (O'Connell) who didn't play a meaningful down (not a big surprise for a QB ), but who many also thought was a reach last year, a 4th round CB (Wilhite)that some thought was better than the 2nd rounder, but who also didn't do much before getting injured IIRC, a 5th rounder (Slater) who all I remember about him is fumbling on a kickoff return last year and a 6th rounder they cut this week (Ruud). Outside Mayo (who I also think is a bit overrated, but is a good player), I ain't exactly shaking in my boots.....