The lack of not being able to run the ball is just baffling to me

[John from Riverside]

I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this.

 

Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker

 

30 yards?

 

Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season

 

[Dawgg]

I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this.

 

Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker

 

30 yards?

 

Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season

 

 

Spending big $ doesn't substitute for drafting and developing your O-Line.

 

The Bills are coming to this realization now. Perhaps this year, they'll take some linemen in rounds 2-4 rather than trading the picks away to move up in the draft.

[rockpile]

The thing that kills me is that it is said Trent has no open receivers because defensesare rushing three and dropping eight into pass coverage.

 

So, the three DLs face a center, two guards, two tackles - and plug every running lane?

 

What am I missing?

 

[Rubes]

Well, they rush three and they still get to the quarterback, so apparently our linemen aren't really able to block very much regardless.

[cale]

The thing that kills me is that it is said Trent has no open receivers because defensesare rushing three and dropping eight into pass coverage.

 

So, the three DLs face a center, two guards, two tackles - and plug every running lane?

 

What am I missing?

 

 

The Bills OL needs to watch tape this week - of the Titans OL. See what a bunch of committed, full of heart not as talented but much more productive line looks like. Sean Kugler needs to earn his paycheck this week.

 

C

[deep2evans]

Agreed. It's driving me crazy too and is clearly this team's #1 problem. It's affecting both Marshawn and Trent in a negative way and will continue to drag this team down if something is not done about it.

[BillsVet]

I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this.

 

Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker

 

The line is not mobile enough to handle a zone scheme, nor tough enough in the center to handle bigger DT's. IMO, those two items result in a team which hasn't run the ball against anyone this season.

 

It's strange that Jamal Williams was bottled up two weeks ago, yet Kris Jenkins destroyed the interior OL.

 

I'm no OL coach, but strength and agility combined make for a good OLineman. Whittle, Preston, Butler, and Fowler are stop gap players who belong on the bench.

 

Most disturbing of all, the group of Walker, Butler, Fowler, Dockery, and Peters played 15 games together in 07 and so far 5 this season. If they haven't gelled by this point, it's because some of them aren't talented enough.

 

Give the Jets credit for motivating Jenkins to play like he did with Carolina a few seasons ago. They have the best DT in the division right now.

[thewildrabbit]

I <3 the Bills, but I couldn't agree more with most of the comments about the running game,or lack of one.

 

Running the ball consistently will cure so many of this teams Ill's. Help set up the passing game,keeps the defense fresh by keeping them on the bench.wear down the opponent's defense,play keep away with the ball.

 

The Jets showed the bills how it is done in the 4th qtr last game.

 

All I can say is this is a very young team with some very talented players. it all comes down to coaching and play calling!!!!

 

The Bills have a new OC and Line coach and it is showing big time,lets hope they can get it together before the team slip's to the bottom of the division and out of the playoffs.

 

I think one poster on another thread stated he wanted to see the Bills run the ball 25 times,even if it meant 25 runs and zero yards. If not for anything else but to show that the bills will have some commitment to the ground game.

 

If I'm Ralph Wilson in Detroit I'd be calling and asking some hard questions about the run game right now. They have 2 very talented RB's and and the Bills keep trying to make the 2nd year QB carry the load....makes no sense

[roy875]

Is it possible that our O-line is too big? There has to be a point where the positives of size and weight are countered by the negatives. Likely this point is different depending on the specific player and his physical characteristics.

 

For example: Bruce Smith was around 290lbs when he was drafted, and he eventually played around 265 lbs because he found that was his ideal balance of size/strength/speed etc. He probably wouldn't have been as successful at the higher weight.

 

At this point I think our guys are too damn big. The RB's may not be able to find holes b/c all they see is a mass of jiggling love handles constipating the running lanes. The smaller/faster LB's and DB's seem able to beat our guys most of the time.

 

Check it out---- on plays when we run up the gut, there is no push at all. Nobody really gets beaten, but it creates a giant pile with no way to get through. On plays with traps and pulling, our wide-loads usually run out to the corner, and have 1-3 LB's or DB's elude them to tackle Lynch while the lineman is standing there having blocked no-one. It's been going on all year.

[cale]

Is it possible that our O-line is too big? There has to be a point where the positives of size and weight are countered by the negatives. Likely this point is different depending on the specific player and his physical characteristics.

 

For example: Bruce Smith was around 290lbs when he was drafted, and he eventually played around 265 lbs because he found that was his ideal balance of size/strength/speed etc. He probably wouldn't have been as successful at the higher weight.

 

At this point I think our guys are too damn big. The RB's may not be able to find holes b/c all they see is a mass of jiggling love handles constipating the running lanes. The smaller/faster LB's and DB's seem able to beat our guys most of the time.

 

Check it out---- on plays when we run up the gut, there is no push at all. Nobody really gets beaten, but it creates a giant pile with no way to get through. On plays with traps and pulling, our wide-loads usually run out to the corner, and have 1-3 LB's or DB's elude them to tackle Lynch while the lineman is standing there having blocked no-one. It's been going on all year.

 

I don't know - maybe. But to me this is just simple physics. Big mass + momentum should be able to push smaller and lighter objects out of the way. The thing that is so frustrating is that this OL should be able to go after anyone mano el mano and simply obliterate them. Thus far they can't seem to get out of their own way.

[The Big Cat]

Not having Josh Reed these past two weeks has been murderous to all aspects of the offense. He's Trent's favorite release valve and without him, the offense has been COMPLETELY devoid of rythm and continuity.

[BillsfaninFl]

Is it possible that our O-line is too big? There has to be a point where the positives of size and weight are countered by the negatives. Likely this point is different depending on the specific player and his physical characteristics.

 

For example: Bruce Smith was around 290lbs when he was drafted, and he eventually played around 265 lbs because he found that was his ideal balance of size/strength/speed etc. He probably wouldn't have been as successful at the higher weight.

 

At this point I think our guys are too damn big. The RB's may not be able to find holes b/c all they see is a mass of jiggling love handles constipating the running lanes. The smaller/faster LB's and DB's seem able to beat our guys most of the time.

 

Check it out---- on plays when we run up the gut, there is no push at all. Nobody really gets beaten, but it creates a giant pile with no way to get through. On plays with traps and pulling, our wide-loads usually run out to the corner, and have 1-3 LB's or DB's elude them to tackle Lynch while the lineman is standing there having blocked no-one. It's been going on all year.

 

 

Good post: right on and with some humor.

 

We keep hearing that our D-linemen are too small and can't get enoughj of a push. Our O-linemen are too big to keep up with fast D-linemen. The solution is obvious: switch the lines. Walker and Dockery would be in the DT rotation, and Peters - the ex-TE, ex-Pro Bowler with those "quick feet" - can play DE. If Stroud was hiking the ball, Jenkins might have been sitting on the turf for some of those plays. Please don't take the preceding seriously.

 

On the other hand, I like what we saw from Derek Fine. He can run a rout and catch a ball. The touchdown was a "gimme," but at least he didn't drop it. Five catches later, I'd say that was a pretty good debut for the rookie.

[Wayne Fontes]

I don't know - maybe. But to me this is just simple physics. Big mass + momentum should be able to push smaller and lighter objects out of the way. The thing that is so frustrating is that this OL should be able to go after anyone mano el mano and simply obliterate them. Thus far they can't seem to get out of their own way.

 

Momentum is a function of velocity and mass. So if you're fat and move like ooze, its tough to build momentum.

[San-O]

Spending big $ doesn't substitute for drafting and developing your O-Line.

 

The Bills are coming to this realization now. Perhaps this year, they'll take some linemen in rounds 2-4 rather than trading the picks away to move up in the draft.

 

That brings up another problem, when was the last time this scouting/personnel dept. drafted a good

O-lineman. This is basically the staff that has been in place for nearly a decade I believe.

 

What's going to change with them?

 

[cale]

That brings up another problem, when was the last time this scouting/personnel dept. drafted a good

O-lineman. This is basically the staff that has been in place for nearly a decade I believe.

 

What's going to change with them?

 

 

I say we steal AJ Smith's filing cabinet come draft time. Who's with me?

[cale]

Momentum is a function of velocity and mass. So if you're fat and move like ooze, its tough to build momentum.

 

I hear ya...

[Pyrite Gal]

Spending big $ doesn't substitute for drafting and developing your O-Line.

 

The Bills are coming to this realization now. Perhaps this year, they'll take some linemen in rounds 2-4 rather than trading the picks away to move up in the draft.

While drafting an developing talent on the OL as Indy had done would be a preferable alternative to building an OL through FA, if if one has a goal to make the playoffs in 08, 09 or likely even by 2010, drafting and developing a solid OL is not the method the Bills should pursue now (or likely should have began to pursue prior to the 06 draft when Marv took over as GM) for the timing of the goals of this team and the other critical needs this team had (and have) there simply is not enough time to focus on building an OL in the preferred method of using the draft.

 

TD (and his designated offensive genil GW, Kragthorpe, Bresnahan, and then Gilbride) simply blew it using the preferred approach you endorse when they spent a 1st rounder on bust Mike Williams and a 3rd rounder on the good playing but injury prone Jonas Jennings.

 

One can argue that their problem was not sticking with your advocated strategy and drafting some more potential OL studs after they screwed up with the draft picks they made. However, the quality of these OL choices (and also the OL alternatives available like the stupid McKinnie) raise many questions about how much of a cure an OL draft focus would have been given initial (and I would argue more important) failures that Ralph led this team to in mismanaging the Butler situation so that he was forced to take TD who then through his own insecurities of not repeating the situation where Bill Cowher ran him out of Pitts he made bad choices in hiring coaches here.

 

If one's goal is to make the playoffs and even the SB through building your OL through FA rather than the draft you are simply flat out wrong in saying that the draft though a preferable method in the long run is the only alternative for building an OL. NYG is one clear example that it is certainly possible to substitute FA acquisition for the draft as an OL building method.

 

FA acquisitions can be a substitute for building a successful OL, the issue is the same one though as building an OL though the draft if you pick bad players (Mike Williams), provide them with bad coaching (Bresnahan), in a dysfunctional offense (Kragthorpe and then Gilbride) you do badly.

 

If one wants to reasonably advocate taking a different approach to OL development than the one the Bills took then this case to be credible needs a little more detail than simply stating the obvious.

[stuckincincy]

I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this.

 

Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker

 

30 yards?

 

Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season

 

For quite a while, the rules favor the pass game. Seems like 3, 4 wide-outs is half the offensive formations these days.

 

The Bills aren't the only club with low rush numbers. My feeling is that it's pretty much league-wide. Dunno...

[RLflutie7]

I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this.

 

Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker

 

30 yards?

 

Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season

 

 

 

Most of the time, it's the running back.

 

Way back around the draft, I thought the Bills should have drafted another running back. I can't understand why teams have 10 linebackers and 10 defensive backs and only 3 or 4 running backs. Then they turn around and say how important it is to have a running game.

 

The Bills should have drafted another running back - higher in the draft. In fact, I'd take a RB almost every year. The position requires it. I remember saying, that teams should draft offense only and get defense with free agents.

 

Look at Denver, the get running backs every year, and I expect Ryan Torain to break out soon. Plus the have a smaller o-line. With the exception of our new LT.

[Dawgg]

drafting and developing a solid OL is not the method the Bills should pursue now (or likely should have began to pursue prior to the 06 draft when Marv took over as GM) for the timing of the goals of this team and the other critical needs this team had (and have) there simply is not enough time to focus on building an OL in the preferred method of using the draft.

 

You couldn't be more wrong. Good, young offensive linemen taken in them middle rounds can translate well into the NFL, early in their careers.

 

If one wants to reasonably advocate taking a different approach to OL development than the one the Bills took then this case to be credible needs a little more detail than simply stating the obvious.

 

You claim that 2006 was too late to start addressing the O-Line in the draft if the timetable called for making a playoff push this year. You're dead wrong. Here are some facts for you:

 

- In 2006, the Jets spent 2 first round picks on offensive linemen, both of whom have playoff starts under their belt. Both started in an AFC Wildcard game that year.

 

- In 2006, the Green Bay Packers spent 2nd and 3rd rounders on Daryn Colledge and Jason Spitz respectively. Both have been durable starters at guard and center. Both started in the divisional playoffs and the NFC Championship Game last year.

 

- In 2006, the San Diego Chargers found both their starting tackles in a single draft! Marcus McNeill, the 2x Pro Bowl selection and Jeromey Clary, chosen in the 6th round of that same draft. The Chargers have had a very good rushing offense and have reached the playoffs featuring linemen they drafted and developed in-house.

 

- In 2006, the Tampa Bay Bucs spent a first rounder on guard Davin Joseph and a second rounder on tackle Jeremy Trueblood. Both players started from Day 1 and managed to perform decently well in Jon Gruden's offense. They too have playoff experience, going into their third year.

 

You can continue your homer-like support of the front office, but reality points you in a different direction.

You can rip McKinnie all you want... but he has proven to be a capable offensive tackle in the NFL.

[bills4sb]

Agree, it's unbelieavable to me that we suck at running the ball. Especially when I watch a team like Tenessee with no passing game be able to just run like crazy. Think maybe losing McNally hurt??, i mean even our pass blocking has been below average too after last year we set a franchise record for least amount of sacks given up...

 

Whats the f'in deal??

[KD in CA]

Most of the time, it's the running back.

 

Way back around the draft, I thought the Bills should have drafted another running back. I can't understand why teams have 10 linebackers and 10 defensive backs and only 3 or 4 running backs. Then they turn around and say how important it is to have a running game.

 

The Bills should have drafted another running back - higher in the draft. In fact, I'd take a RB almost every year. The position requires it. I remember saying, that teams should draft offense only and get defense with free agents.

 

Look at Denver, the get running backs every year, and I expect Ryan Torain to break out soon. Plus the have a smaller o-line. With the exception of our new LT.

 

Denver is the perfect example of why it's not the running back. In the past eight years, they've had a different guy lead the team in rushing 7 times. And several of them have done little or nothing after leaving Denver.

[KOKBILLS]

The Bills OL needs to watch tape this week - of the Titans OL. See what a bunch of committed, full of heart not as talented but much more productive line looks like. Sean Kugler needs to earn his paycheck this week.

 

C

 

I actually agree with this quite a bit...And they would do well to put in a Tape of The Giants O-Line as well...The Bills have every bit as much talent as these other Teams on the O-Line (not on the D-Line though...I admit that fully)...But these Teams go out with the intention of whipping the person on the other side of the Line...They take it personally...They are FAR more physical...They hurt people...They wear the other Team down...

 

How in Gods Name The Bills, with an O-Line that big, became a finesse Offense I'll never know...They should be running the Ball Down opponents throats...They have 2 VERY talented backs, just like The Titans and the Giants (well The Giants actually have 3)...There is no excuse for it whatsoever...A hell of a lot of it comes down to desire...I'm not saying Coaching does not play into it, but The Bills simply look out-muscled on both lines WAY too much...It's sad really...It wears Me out just thinking about it...

[billybob]

I've addressed this since pre-season last year but once again- Fowler isn't very good - Butler and Dockery are too tall and don't get good leverage in the run game- in addition Peters is now giving less than a 100% no more running around pancaking people- which leaves Walker as our best run blocker which is kinda sad- as for the subs I like D Bell but think the rest are somewhere between mediocre and pathetic.

[cale]

I actually agree with this quite a bit...And they would do well to put in a Tape of The Giants O-Line as well...The Bills have every bit as much talent as these other Teams on the O-Line (not on the D-Line though...I admit that fully)...But these Teams go out with the intention of whipping the person on the other side of the Line...They take it personally...They are FAR more physical...They hurt people...They wear the other Team down...

 

How in Gods Name The Bills, with an O-Line that big, became a finesse Offense I'll never know...They should be running the Ball Down opponents throats...They have 2 VERY talented backs, just like The Titans and the Giants (well The Giants actually have 3)...There is no excuse for it whatsoever...A hell of a lot of it comes down to desire...I'm not saying Coaching does not play into it, but The Bills simply look out-muscled on both lines WAY too much...It's sad really...It wears Me out just thinking about it...

 

I long for the days of Ruben Brown having a total meltdown because the team didn't run enough. He took it personally when they didn't get yards or the OC didn't believe in them to get yards on the ground.

 

This line needs a pep talk from Ruben. I hear he still lives in Orchard Park.

 

C

[RLflutie7]

Denver is the perfect example of why it's not the running back. In the past eight years, they've had a different guy lead the team in rushing 7 times. And several of them have done little or nothing after leaving Denver.

 

 

I would see how you could say that, but . . . Mike Bell didn't work out and several others didn't last long either. Mike Bell didn't have the talent. He was hyped as a possible starter as a free agent . . . but it was clear he didn't have talent.

 

Travis Henry could have worked out, but his head wasn't in the right place.

 

You're saying some guys had some production with Denver and went to another team and did nothing. That's true. Tatum Bell was like that.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Big fat and lazy? Take a look at how many O lineman on the Bills are standing straight up watching the back get killed during a play. I think they need to get the rope out and a big stick to smack their lazy butts for not firing out low. Geez this is pathetic.

[KD in CA]

You're saying some guys had some production with Denver and went to another team and did nothing. That's true. Tatum Bell was like that.

 

Olandis Gary, Droughans, Mike Anderson also had 1000 yard season with Denver.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

A week or so back someone else posted the thought that maybe being tall is bad as they can't get low enough to get under the defenders.

 

 

I don't know - maybe. But to me this is just simple physics. Big mass + momentum should be able to push smaller and lighter objects out of the way. The thing that is so frustrating is that this OL should be able to go after anyone mano el mano and simply obliterate them. Thus far they can't seem to get out of their own way.

[ganesh]

Not having Josh Reed these past two weeks has been murderous to all aspects of the offense. He's Trent's favorite release valve and without him, the offense has been COMPLETELY devoid of rythm and continuity.

 

I don't know. Parrish has actually played well and has been that safety valve...It is not like Josh Reed had multiple TDs in the season. What it is really missing is a real #2 WR who can take the pressure of Evans and catch TD passes in the end zone. I hope Derek Fine can do that....However, it looks like it is too much to expect of a rookie.