Best Case Scenario

[1billsfan]

5 years

Your perception is out of whack in regards to how long on average it takes to find a good QB. It's hard enough to find a decent one but you'll notice that teams with OK QBs are constantly looking for better. At the moment I'd be happy enough for us to field a decent QB......but after a year or two will be crying out for a good one just like everyone else.

 

Some teams get lucky in being able to get another good QB within a few years of having one leave(retire) but it is the rare exception.....not the norm.

Cowboys are a good example......and they didn't even spend high picks at QB(generally locking teams into that player for longer).

Aikman retires in 2000.....they go through Carter, Hutchinson, Testiverde & Bledsoe before finding Romo 6 years later. Is it a coincidence that they become good at the same time that they land a good QB?

Elway retires in 1999.....they go through Griese, Kanell & Plummer before Cutler. If Cutler does not develop they will be looking at over 10 years in the QB wilderness and still be looking for a QB.

Have the Bucs ever had a reliable tong term QB?

Most teams have to wait for years before finding a good QB. Bills, Dolphins, Browns, Ravens, Texans, Broncos, Raiders, Redskins, Lions, Bears, Bucs, Panthers, Cardinals have all been waiting for years to find a good QB......Jets, Titans, Chiefs, Vikings, Packers, Falcons & 49ers may well be waiting for years to come before they find their QBs of the future.

 

Finding a QB who you can keep for a decade & is good enough to not seek their replacement is probably the hardest & most important part about building a team........and certainly should not be expected within a 5 year period.

 

I truly believe that if Dick Jauron were given the undiscovered Tom Brady or even Brent Favre, that both QBs would have had very NFL average careers. Everything in Jauron's DNA tells him that interceptions are a mortal sin and to never allow his QB throw a pass until it is absolutely necessary (see third and longs), and when he does feel a little crazy and let's him pass on first or second downs it is of the one to five yard variety. Jauron is a horrible head coach because he doesn't trust in his players to make plays and this is the reason his teams always suck against tough competition. No guts no glory, playing not to lose will get you beat more often then get you the victory. I hate, yes HATE, Dick Jauron's coaching style and can't wait till he's long gone from Buffalo.

[eball]

I truly believe that if Dick Jauron were given the undiscovered Tom Brady or even Brent Favre, that both QBs would have had very NFL average careers. Everything in Jauron's DNA tells him that interceptions are a mortal sin and to never allow his QB throw a pass until it is absolutely necessary (see third and longs), and when he does feel a little crazy and let's him pass on first or second downs it is of the one to five yard variety. Jauron is a horrible head coach because he doesn't trust in his players to make plays and this is the reason his teams always suck against tough competition. No guts no glory, playing not to lose will get you beat more often then get you the victory. I hate, yes HATE, Dick Jauron's coaching style and can't wait till he's long gone from Buffalo.

Moronic post. Sorry, 1billsfan, but I gotta call you out on this one. Jauron is a delegator on offense and defense, much the way Levy was. He may try to bring in OCs who match his general philosophy, but NOTHING we've seen in Buffalo suggests Jauron is calling the plays (or overriding the OC's playcalling). The Bills simply haven't had the horses on offense to truly attack people, and Fairchild's strategy was curious at best. It's obvious Jauron was frustrated by it as well.

 

Keep posting this drivel, though. There are plenty of misguided souls out there who love to lap it up.

 

I don't believe Jauron is the second coming of Lombardi or (shudder) Belichick*, but he deserves a hell of a lot more respect than he's been shown.

[1billsfan]

Moronic post. Sorry, 1billsfan, but I gotta call you out on this one. Jauron is a delegator on offense and defense, much the way Levy was. He may try to bring in OCs who match his general philosophy, but NOTHING we've seen in Buffalo suggests Jauron is calling the plays (or overriding the OC's playcalling). The Bills simply haven't had the horses on offense to truly attack people, and Fairchild's strategy was curious at best. It's obvious Jauron was frustrated by it as well.

 

Keep posting this drivel, though. There are plenty of misguided souls out there who love to lap it up.

 

I don't believe Jauron is the second coming of Lombardi or (shudder) Belichick*, but he deserves a hell of a lot more respect than he's been shown.

 

 

You're the moron if you think that Jauron doesn't have a HUGE say in the offensive gameplanning. Because if he was letting Steve Fairchild run our team into the ground last year without changing the vanilla course then Jauron's a bigger idiot than I thought he was. I love you guys, you seriously crack me the f up. You have this opinion that all's Jauron needs to become this great coach is a great QB. Once he gets that QB, the skies the limit baby! Give us all a break please, to believe this is to ignore seven seasons worth of head coaching that tells you the exact opposite. If he were given a great QB, that QB would end up having one lack-luster season after another. Jauron doesn't trust in his players. History is on my side, and you're calling me the moron? You are so delusional, you have no clue.

[eball]

You're the moron if you think that Jauron doesn't have a HUGE say in the offensive gameplanning. Because if he was letting Steve Fairchild run our team into the ground last year without changing the vanilla course then Jauron's a bigger idiot than I thought he was. I love you guys, you seriously crack me the f up. You have this opinion that all's Jauron needs to become this great coach is a great QB. Once he gets that QB, the skies the limit baby! Give us all a break please, to believe this is to ignore seven seasons worth of head coaching that tells you the exact opposite. If he were given a great QB, that QB would end up having one lack-luster season after another. Jauron doesn't trust in his players. History is on my side, and you're calling me the moron? You are so delusional, you have no clue.

I'll respond to you one more time, but after that I'll devote my time elsewhere because it's clear you don't "get it." When you have a team that is deficient in talent, you have to try to devise gameplans that will keep the game close so you might have a chance to win if the breaks go your way. It's that simple. The Bills of 2006 and 2007 were talent poor, both because of what Donahoe left behind (2006) and an unbelievable slew of injuries (2007). Despite that, the Bills were able to remain competitive in nearly all of their games and were amazingly still in the playoff conversation in December both years.

 

The reason players love Jauron is precisely because he DOES trust them. He apparently also inspires them -- that's what I've seen on the field since his arrival. What he can't do is make them more talented or skillful than they are.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you mind letting us know your age?

[SouthernMan]

Why all the hate for Jauron? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely interested. He's given me reason for hope since he's gotten here, as it feels like he's turned this franchise around from the hellhole it was when he got here. It feels as if the ball is rolling in the right direction.

 

 

Why all the hate for Jauron is a good question. Because he's not a charismatic, animated sideline figure like a Jon Gruden, Parcells, or Bill Cowher?

 

The Bengals' Marvin Lewis has been given a free ride for 5 years. He has one more win than Jauron during Jauron's tenure with the Bills, and for some reason, Lewis is treated like a coaching god by the media and fans.

 

In 5 seasons as the Bengals head man, only one has resulted in a record better than .500. He's also had more talent and less injury issues than Jauron has had.

 

Consider Jauron's challenges last season:

Working with a rookie RB, rookie QB, no complimentary second WR, barely adequate TEs to replace the severly injured one, a defensive backfield wiped out by injury, the highest total of injured reserve players on record, and one the toughest schedules of the season. All this, and they were only a couple of last-second field goals away from being a playoff contender.

 

I'm willing to give Jauron the benefit of a doubt. I think it's still too early to pass judgement on him as the Bills coach. How many coaches have had better records in their first 2 years after inheriting a minimally talented team ?

 

Considering all Jauron had to face last year, it's amazing they finished with 7 wins!

[1billsfan]

I'll respond to you one more time, but after that I'll devote my time elsewhere because it's clear you don't "get it." When you have a team that is deficient in talent, you have to try to devise gameplans that will keep the game close so you might have a chance to win if the breaks go your way. It's that simple. The Bills of 2006 and 2007 were talent poor, both because of what Donahoe left behind (2006) and an unbelievable slew of injuries (2007). Despite that, the Bills were able to remain competitive in nearly all of their games and were amazingly still in the playoff conversation in December both years.

 

The reason players love Jauron is precisely because he DOES trust them. He apparently also inspires them -- that's what I've seen on the field since his arrival. What he can't do is make them more talented or skillful than they are.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you mind letting us know your age?

 

I'm 43 and clearly have a much better handle on Jauron's football history than you do. Dick Jauron inspires his players? Wow, you didn't drink the kool-aid, you chugged it. It's now become a BIG myth that Jauron's teams "play" their hearts out for him. Where the hell was this EFFORT the last three games last year? The games that actually made the DIFFERENCE between the Bills making the playoffs and them sitting at home. They played the most uninspiring football I've ever seen by a Bills team, that's what they did. So there goes that inspiration theory. I'm sorry that you're still clinging to this myth of Jauron being a good head coach, I saw the light early on last season and Bear's fans will be more than happy to tell you the rest of the story. I'm just trying to help you understand how wrong you are, but please be my guest and devote your time elsewhere. I could care less.

[eball]

I'm 43 and clearly have a much better handle on Jauron's football history than you do. Dick Jauron inspires his players? Wow, you didn't drink the kool-aid, you chugged it. It's now become a BIG myth that Jauron's teams "play" their hearts out for him. Where the hell was this EFFORT the last three games last year? The games that actually made the DIFFERENCE between the Bills making the playoffs and them sitting at home. They played the most uninspiring football I've ever seen by a Bills team, that's what they did. So there goes that inspiration theory. I'm sorry that you're still clinging to this myth of Jauron being a good head coach, I saw the light early on last season and Bear's fans will be more than happy to tell you the rest of the story. I'm just trying to help you understand how wrong you are, but please be my guest and devote your time elsewhere. I could care less.

Keep ignoring the talent issue, 1billsfan. Later.

[1billsfan]

Keep ignoring the talent issue, 1billsfan. Later.

 

Marshawn Lynch had only 18 catches, but also had a 10.2 average of yards gained per catch. That was as good as TJ Houshmandzadeh's (10.2) and Hines Ward's (10.3) YPC. Want RBs comparisons? He was better than both Brian Westbrook (8.6) and LT (7.9). Yet Marshawn only had a pitiful 18 catches for the whole season. Lynch was a guy that everyone knew, except apparently Dick Jauron, was a true threat in the passing game. The only one that's ignoring talent here is Dick Jauron.

 

I'd be more than happy if Jauron proves his doubters like me wrong and I'll just leave it at that.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I have zero faith in Jauron. My hope is that the team can win in spite of him, and he gets fired either during, or after the season.

Wow, the positive vibe bit it fast.

[K-9]

I could care less.

 

That means you actually COULD care less.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Sisyphean Bills]

Cute attempt....but Belicheat was a helluva coach going 11-5 with a crap Clevekand organization and was the reason Parcells won anything.

However...YES--Jauron has had garbage to work with at QB.I have my doubts --seeing how anal rentative the guy is in his coaching style---but I woulda said the same thing about Coughlin not too long ago.We'll see.

BTW, how long did he stick with any of these guys before reaching for the next hot pocket?

 

It's comical really. It's like taking a recipe for a cake that says "bake for 25 minutes at 350" and turning around after its been in the oven for 5 minutes and saying, "I can't wait that long. This cake isn't any good. Let's put another in the oven."

 

WTF? No, really. WTF are some expecting?

 

Not every QB is going to be good. Let's nip the gratuitous knee-jerk Losman bashing in the bud and just stipulate that "sure, he'll never be any good." That does nothing to explain the track record of Jauron and QBs. He's only ever stuck with Miller and Losman as "the guy" for any length of time. Setting aside the personal bitterness, does anybody really think it builds a team to yo-yo the starter and leadership figure in and out of the line-up? This is a !@#$ing team sport. This is also a sport where confidence is essential. Eroding confidence in the leadership, including the QB and coaching staff, should not be treated cavalierly. If it were that simple, you'd see coaches across the NFL declaring QBs busts after a couple of series and going to the next pitcher in the rotation without a second thought.

[The Mayor of Buffalo]

Nice post. I'm not worried at all about Hardy's past. He seems, so far anyway, to be the type of guy that has made himself a better person by making a few mistakes...as cliche as that might sound.

 

I think your biggest point is the McCargo comment. He was a first rounder, and actually started to look like one in the second half of last year. I personally thought he should have been starting, and seeing a lot more time on the field than he was getting. Triplett just didn't work out. McCargo alongside Stroud sounds pretty intimidating if I were an opposing offensive coordinator. If McCargo continues to progress, they could be VERY dangerous together...and I don't think we could have asked for a better mentor for McCargo than we have found in Stroud. Will be really nice that Schobel won't be double teamed constantly this season, if the big guys in the middle stay healthy.

 

I'm not too worried about the TE position as some are. I think we have pretty decent blockers there, and I am much more concerned with their blocking abilities now that we have a big #2 WR. Speaking of that big #2...the addition of Hardy should obviously free up Evans a bit...but damn, what about Parrish?? I think he should now be the consensus #3. Get the ball in his hands...end of story. We've all seen what he can do with his feet when he has the ball...I am REALLY liking the thought of Evans/Hardy/Parrish being on the field together in passing situations. On paper, you couldn't ask for a better or more diverse range of talent.

 

Back to Defense...as lousy as the Bills were opening the season last year, our rookies were certainly the bright spots. I don't even need to get into Lynch right now, but Poz was there for every single play until he got hurt. If I recall correctly, wasn't he leading the NFL in tackles after 3 weeks???

 

Our past 3 drafts have been phenomenal. Whitner...then the homerun with Lynch, and hopefully Poz last year...and now two years in a row we got a first round value in a second round pick...in my opinion anyway. Hell, the Bills considered Poz in the first last year...and most "experts" thought the Bills would go after one of the top WRs in the draft in the first last weekend...and we got one in the second. I love it.

 

 

 

 

1) The Bills OL stays healthy, especially Jason Peters, who is presently our best player. It probably isn't close.

 

2) Our 1st round corner is a star.

 

3) Hardy is not a criminal.

 

4) Poz comes back and plays to form. I think that R.Rich was right about this kid.

 

5) Butler keps progressing. This is freaking huge.

 

6) Duke Preston is cut. I don't care if he is replaced by a udfa. He is a bad football player.

 

7) Stroud likes it here, stays healthy, and plays well. He is a badass.

 

8) McCargo becomes a good, steady player.

 

9) Parrish doesn't get broken in half.

 

10) Someone can be a good TE. This is a HUGE reach.

 

Last but far from least, Trent Edwards needs to be even almost as good as I think that he will be. It is a ton to ask or expect from a kid with 9 starts, but I really do see great things in this kid. How perfect would it be for us if he shows enough to unite the crowd at OBD, let alone TSW?

I hated this draft, but I will never give up.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[C.Biscuit97]

BTW, how long did he stick with any of these guys before reaching for the next hot pocket?

 

It's comical really. It's like taking a recipe for a cake that says "bake for 25 minutes at 350" and turning around after its been in the oven for 5 minutes and saying, "I can't wait that long. This cake isn't any good. Let's put another in the oven."

 

WTF? No, really. WTF are some expecting?

 

Not every QB is going to be good. Let's nip the gratuitous knee-jerk Losman bashing in the bud and just stipulate that "sure, he'll never be any good." That does nothing to explain the track record of Jauron and QBs. He's only ever stuck with Miller and Losman as "the guy" for any length of time. Setting aside the personal bitterness, does anybody really think it builds a team to yo-yo the starter and leadership figure in and out of the line-up? This is a !@#$ing team sport. This is also a sport where confidence is essential. Eroding confidence in the leadership, including the QB and coaching staff, should not be treated cavalierly. If it were that simple, you'd see coaches across the NFL declaring QBs busts after a couple of series and going to the next pitcher in the rotation without a second thought.

 

Please tell what other of Jauron's QBs you would have started for any period of time??? Or how bout the fact that none of the QBs that were Jauron's QBs ever really played for any other teams?

 

I'm not trying to say he is the best coach in the league. But seriously, please tell me who would have done a better job with the Bills' roster last season in a season that began with a teammate getting paralyzed and losing on a last second fg?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Did Dick have player personnel power in Chi town?

Yes. Dick Jauron had total control of player personnel in Chicago. It was a major contention between Angelo and Jauron, because it meant that Angelo was nothing but a stuffed shirt.

[The Mayor of Buffalo]

Give him a chance...the Losman situation was already well on its way to being a farce before he even got here. All I know is that the players love him, and love playing for him. He brings out the best in the players...look at Greer. Look at Wilson. We thought it would be a disaster resorting to starting these guys, then they came in and played their asses off.

 

I'm not judging Jauron until AFTER this season. All the pieces are finally starting to come together...last year we had a VERY likeable team, and this year we'll have a very likeable team that wins (I hope!)

 

Wow, the positive vibe bit it fast.

[stuckincincy]

quote name='DML2005' date='May 1 2008, 08:56 AM' post='1026888']

 

The Bengals' Marvin Lewis has been given a free ride for 5 years. He has one more win than Jauron during Jauron's tenure with the Bills, and for some reason, Lewis is treated like a coaching god by the media and fans.

 

In 5 seasons as the Bengals head man, only one has resulted in a record better than .500. He's also had more talent and less injury issues than Jauron has had.

 

I'm no fan of Lewis. He has poor game day sense, can't tell time, and is smarmy and duplicitous to the press and fans.

 

But the injuries have been heavy, moreso than BUF:

 

- '03 3rd rounder WR Kelley Washington - missed the better part of 2 seasons with hamstring injuries. Since acquired by NE*

 

- '03 4th rounder CB Dennis Weathersby - car crash, never played.

 

'- 04 1st rounder RB Chris Perry - about one season's worth of games over 4 years.

- '05 1st rounder DE David Pollack breaks his neck in game #2 of 2006. Also in that game, C Rich Braham tears up knee; never plays again.

 

- '07 2nd rounder RB Kenny Irons tears up knee in the 2nd game of pre-season. Out for the year, doubtful for 2008.

 

In 2006, CIN lost these games from these starters:

 

DE David Pollack - 14 games.

C Rich Braham - 14 games

LT Levi Jones - 10 games.

LB Brian Simmons - 5 games.

CB Delthea O'Neal - 4 games.

SS Dexter Jackson - 4 games.

LB Rashad Jeanty - 4 games.

RG Bobbie Williams - 3 games.

WR T.J. Houshmanzadeh - 2 games.

 

In 2007, starters missing games:

 

MLB Ahmad Brooks - 14 games

RT Willie Anderson - 9 games.

LB Rashad Jeanty - 6 games.

RB Rudi Johnson - 5 games.

C Eric Ghiaciuc - 4 games.

S Madieu Williams - 3 games.

S Dexter Jackson - 2 games.

LT Levi Jones - 1 game plus 3 starts - spot duty.

 

That's a sh*tload of games lost, by starters, over a two-year stretch...

 

The injuries started in the pre-season in '07. They played 3 pre-season games with an amazing 20 players short.

 

Their LB corps was wiped out for 2 seasons - recall that in the CIN - BUF game this past season, the starting OLBs for CIN were DE Robt. Geathers, and rookie SS Chidi Ndukwe. Landon Johnson played MLB, and the only LB back-ups on the roster were street FA Dhani Jones and NE* cast-off Anthony Schlegal.

 

Much as I dislike Lewis, he has never publicly blamed injuries...

[K-9]

BTW, how long did he stick with any of these guys before reaching for the next hot pocket?

 

It's comical really. It's like taking a recipe for a cake that says "bake for 25 minutes at 350" and turning around after its been in the oven for 5 minutes and saying, "I can't wait that long. This cake isn't any good. Let's put another in the oven."

 

WTF? No, really. WTF are some expecting?

 

Not every QB is going to be good. Let's nip the gratuitous knee-jerk Losman bashing in the bud and just stipulate that "sure, he'll never be any good." That does nothing to explain the track record of Jauron and QBs. He's only ever stuck with Miller and Losman as "the guy" for any length of time. Setting aside the personal bitterness, does anybody really think it builds a team to yo-yo the starter and leadership figure in and out of the line-up? This is a !@#$ing team sport. This is also a sport where confidence is essential. Eroding confidence in the leadership, including the QB and coaching staff, should not be treated cavalierly. If it were that simple, you'd see coaches across the NFL declaring QBs busts after a couple of series and going to the next pitcher in the rotation without a second thought.

 

Good points about leadership. But just to play devil's advocate, what ever happened to the hot-pocket QBs AFTER Jauron yanked them out of the line-up? Did any go on to have the All Pro careers they would have otherwise had if Jauron hadn't been so impatient with them?

 

He had success with Jim Miller for crissakes. JIM MILLER! It could be argued that when the great Jim Miller went down so to did the fortunes of Jauron's Bear team.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Sisyphean Bills]

But seriously, please tell me who would have done a better job with the Bills' roster last season in a season that began with a teammate getting paralyzed and losing on a last second fg?

The last player I remember getting paralyzed was a LB for the Lions. Forgot his name. I don't remember the Lions folding up the organization and forfeiting the rest of the season, though. I call red herring. Also, what's with the "and losing on a last second FG"? Can we add "born on a Friday under a full moon" to make sure we're arguing from a negative premise?

 

It's easy to say a QB is a bust. It's easy to say that he had no talent to begin with because he didn't become the absolute best in his profession. That characterization fits the majority of people on the planet. It is easy because there is no proof to the contrary.

 

In reality, it takes more than a fleeting chance to become successful.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Good points about leadership. But just to play devil's advocate, what ever happened to the hot-pocket QBs AFTER Jauron yanked them out of the line-up? Did any go on to have the All Pro careers they would have otherwise had if Jauron hadn't been so impatient with them?

 

He had success with Jim Miller for crissakes. JIM MILLER! It could be argued that when the great Jim Miller went down so to did the fortunes of Jauron's Bear team.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

All I am really saying, K-9, is that I do not want to see Trent Edwards get pulled out of the line-up next year. Even if he has a paper cut. Even if he has a 4 game stretch where he sucks massive. If he is the starter, then by God, the Dickster needs to hitch his wagon to Trent and go for the damn ride.

[C.Biscuit97]

All I am really saying, K-9, is that I do not want to see Trent Edwards get pulled out of the line-up next year. Even if he has a paper cut. Even if he has a 4 game stretch where he sucks massive. If he is the starter, then by God, the Dickster needs to hitch his wagon to Trent and go for the damn ride.

 

 

This I completely agree with. And I think he gave JP the same treatment in 2006, when JP was awful early on. But last year, Jauron didn't bench Losman. Losman got himself benched.

[K-9]

All I am really saying, K-9, is that I do not want to see Trent Edwards get pulled out of the line-up next year. Even if he has a paper cut. Even if he has a 4 game stretch where he sucks massive. If he is the starter, then by God, the Dickster needs to hitch his wagon to Trent and go for the damn ride.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I just deleted a post in response to one of your previous one's regarding 'fleeting chance', etc. I thought you were just speaking of JP but I understand your larger meaning now.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[1billsfan]

All I am really saying, K-9, is that I do not want to see Trent Edwards get pulled out of the line-up next year. Even if he has a paper cut. Even if he has a 4 game stretch where he sucks massive. If he is the starter, then by God, the Dickster needs to hitch his wagon to Trent and go for the damn ride.

 

 

...and if that ride ends in a 7-9 or worse record just like 6 of the 7 other seasons the Dickster's been an NFL head coach, he SHOULD BE FIRED. If anyone here thinks otherwise then IMO they are bigger Dick Jauron fans than Buffalo Bills fans.

[eball]

All I am really saying, K-9, is that I do not want to see Trent Edwards get pulled out of the line-up next year. Even if he has a paper cut. Even if he has a 4 game stretch where he sucks massive. If he is the starter, then by God, the Dickster needs to hitch his wagon to Trent and go for the damn ride.

FWIW, I think Jauron is much more likely to do that now that he has a defense on the field that (should be) better than average.

 

Something that shouldn't be lost in the Jauron discussion, by the way, is his excellent record on replay challenges. The guy was MONEY last year. Sorta belies the notion he's clueless on game day, ya know?

[Lurker]

Something that shouldn't be lost in the Jauron discussion, by the way, is his excellent record on replay challenges. The guy was MONEY last year. Sorta belies the notion he's clueless on game day, ya know?

I suspect it was due to AVP being in the coaches booth last year...their challenge success ratio was quite an upgrade from the year before, IIRC.

[Flbillsfan#1]

The last player I remember getting paralyzed was a LB for the Lions. Forgot his name. I don't remember the Lions folding up the organization and forfeiting the rest of the season, though. I call red herring. Also, what's with the "and losing on a last second FG"? Can we add "born on a Friday under a full moon" to make sure we're arguing from a negative premise?

 

It's easy to say a QB is a bust. It's easy to say that he had no talent to begin with because he didn't become the absolute best in his profession. That characterization fits the majority of people on the planet. It is easy because there is no proof to the contrary.

 

In reality, it takes more than a fleeting chance to become successful.

Lions player was Mike Utley

[Dibs]

..........that Jauron doesn't have a HUGE say in the offensive gameplanning. Because if he was letting Steve Fairchild run our team into the ground last year without changing the vanilla course........

This is a very interesting point though I believe you are simplifying things too much. The buck obviously stops with the HC......therefore any major deficiencies in any coaching area are the fault of the HC. This is true, however there seemed to me to be additional elements last season for me to really want to see what happens on O this season.

If you recall, at some point last season.......after every man & his dog was calling for a less conservative offense.....the players were quoted as saying that during practice they were practicing lots of exciting and different plays however none of those plays that they practiced were called on game days. This implies to me that orders were given to 'open up' the offense. Those orders came obviously from the HC. The plays were practiced till the players were ready to perform them on the field....under the watchful gaze of DJ. Come game day, DJ has no say in what plays do or don't get called.

Perhaps DJs biggest fault in this area may be that he is too loyal to those that he has delegated some of his authority. Perhaps where you or I may have fired SF mid-season and gone ad hoc for the remainder, DJ chose to either trust his OCs opinions or thought it more detrimental to switch mid-season. Either way it is a different situation to the one you are imagining.

[Dibs]

BTW, how long did he stick with any of these guys before reaching for the next hot pocket?

 

It's comical really. It's like taking a recipe for a cake that says "bake for 25 minutes at 350" and turning around after its been in the oven for 5 minutes and saying, "I can't wait that long. This cake isn't any good. Let's put another in the oven."

 

WTF? No, really. WTF are some expecting?

 

Not every QB is going to be good. Let's nip the gratuitous knee-jerk Losman bashing in the bud and just stipulate that "sure, he'll never be any good." That does nothing to explain the track record of Jauron and QBs. He's only ever stuck with Miller and Losman as "the guy" for any length of time. Setting aside the personal bitterness, does anybody really think it builds a team to yo-yo the starter and leadership figure in and out of the line-up? This is a !@#$ing team sport. This is also a sport where confidence is essential. Eroding confidence in the leadership, including the QB and coaching staff, should not be treated cavalierly. If it were that simple, you'd see coaches across the NFL declaring QBs busts after a couple of series and going to the next pitcher in the rotation without a second thought.

Though I somewhat agree with your point in that sometimes it happens that a team gives up too early on a QB.....there are other times where a QB shows quite early that he will never become even a decent NFL starter. The worst situation IMO is to have a QB that does OK and keeps showing signs that they will improve....but never does. Banks, Plummer, Griese, etc, etc. The team in this situation continues to keep faith in their QB when they would be better off trying a new one.....basically the opposite of your scenario.

Throughout DJs HC career though I cannot see how he relates to your point anyway.

DJ started at the Bears in 1999.

They drafted McNown in the 1st round(1999). Was given 2 seasons & showed in that time he was obviously never going to become a decent NFL QB......he never played a game in the NFL after 2000.

In 2001 they went with Miller who played OK for 2 years. Miller however was in his 9th season in 2001 & had very little play prior to that and had previously been suspended under the NFL drug policy. Miller was injured at the end of the season.

In 2002 the 16 year vet Chandler showed himself to be the better option over the 10 year injury affected Miller. Obviously neither QB was the guy to lead the team into the future.....Miller not playing after 2002 & Chandler seeing minimal action in his last season 2004.

In 2003(DJs last with the Bears) they brought in a FA who had shown some things in the past.....Kordell Stewart. This didn't work as this 9 year vet was well past his prime.

Over to Buffalo in 2006 he gave every snap to JPL & though QBR was good there were some glaring signs that he may not become the QB they hoped for.

In 2007 they drafted a Edwards in the 3rd who showed a lot of promise in pre-season. JPL was started & remained the starter until he was injured. Edwards obviously ended up showing more promise than JPL did and finished the season as the designated starter.

 

Unless your argument is specifically about giving up too quickly on JPL there is nothing in DJs HC career that supports what you say.

[BillsVet]

Let's face it, Jauron's 2001 season bought him some more time in Chicago. Jerry Angelo came in there prepared to clean house after 2001, but ended up with Jauron for what he probably thought was one more season. Even after going 4-12 in 02, Jauron wasn't DFA'd.

 

It's amazing how reading this thread people become so defensive about Jauron. (no pun intended) I don't understand the allegiance to a HC who's made it into the playoffs once in 7 full seasons and promptly lost his only post-season game, despite being a #1 seed.

 

This season there will be no excuses. The talent level is much higher and I expect to see Jauron do the same things he's featured in the past. Essentially, win with defense, force turnovers, and score just enough. No frills, no flash, just grind it out running the ball. Of course, we know this doesn't work against good teams, who rarely make mistakes.

 

If Jauron can't get it done this season, he never will. Now that he has the lion's share of personnel power, it's now his team to win or lose. For DJ, he's in a perfect situation in Buffalo. He doesn't have a GM over him, and has IMO, near full personnel authority. He's never really had a GM to overule him, and we're seeing the draft become the Dick Jauron show. I truly believe Brandon lets Dick do what he wants, because Brandon admits to himself that he's new to the personnel side of the franchise.

[Captain Hindsight]

Why all the hate for Jauron? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely interested. He's given me reason for hope since he's gotten here, as it feels like he's turned this franchise around from the hellhole it was when he got here. It feels as if the ball is rolling in the right direction.

Thats how i feel. He might not be the greatest coach but the team plays hard for him and the team finally has a direction

[Lurker]

I don't understand the allegiance to a HC who's made it into the playoffs once in 7 full seasons and promptly lost his only post-season game, despite being a #1 seed.

And I find it interesting that you continue to slag him in light of the of QB instability he was saddled with in CHI.

 

"In that playoff game, Miller was again injured, this time seperating his shoulder, and the 2001 season promptly ended."

 

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose...

[BillsVet]

And I find it interesting that you continue to slag him in light of the of QB instability he was saddled with in CHI.

 

"In that playoff game, Miller was again injured, this time seperating his shoulder, and the 2001 season promptly ended."

 

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose...

 

Why is Jauron always saddled with QB problems?

 

This is a guy who's had complete personnel authority for two franchises and hasn't figured it out. IMO, you can't blame QB play when the coach is in charge of getting the person to play the position! If he's not finding the right guy to play under center, it's his own dang fault.

[Dibs]

Why is Jauron always saddled with QB problems?

 

This is a guy who's had complete personnel authority for two franchises and hasn't figured it out. IMO, you can't blame QB play when the coach is in charge of getting the person to play the position! If he's not finding the right guy to play under center, it's his own dang fault.

Most coaches are saddled with QB problems. It is the minority that find the 'QB of the future' and progress forward with solid QB play for the next decade+......most teams keep on looking year after year for that stability. To say DJs situation regarding QBs was anything other than standard in the NFL is misguided.

[eball]

It's amazing how reading this thread people become so defensive about Jauron. (no pun intended) I don't understand the allegiance to a HC who's made it into the playoffs once in 7 full seasons and promptly lost his only post-season game, despite being a #1 seed.

You don't understand? It's "amazing" to you? Did you WATCH the Bills of the Williams/Mularkey regimes? Did you SEE the difference in attitude and play under Jauron?

 

What's amazing to me is that a bunch of armchair GMs think they "know" what Jauron does or doesn't do, think, or believe. The truth is none of us have a clue. Some choose to look at the positive -- probably those of us with relatively happy lives. The rest only look at the negative, and as I've said many times before, that's a pretty schitty way to live.

 

I believe Jauron falls into much the same category Marv Levy fell when he came to the Bills in 1986. Little prior success, viewed as too "intellectual" -- and gee, look what happened when he finally got a roster with some talent.

 

You guys slay me.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, of all the things you've ever posted (that I've read), this may be the one I have the most trouble with. I'll give you your "continue to draft for the lines or bust" mantra -- at least you have put some thought and logic behind it.

 

Dick Jauron is incredibly well-respected in his field, and to so thoroughly discount his abilities reeks of a complete disregard for logic and reasoned thought. Perhaps you don't like some of his gameday decisions -- fair enough. Perhaps you think he's too milquetoast in front of the media -- I'll grant you that. Maybe you think he's too loyal to coaches who don't seem to be doing their jobs -- he wouldn't be the first good coach to do that.

 

Jauron has done remarkable things with the Bills in two short seasons, inheriting a roster devoid of talent yet keeping them competitive and hungry. Finally, through FA and three drafts things have fallen into place from a talent perspective and you glibly state "I have zero faith in Jauron?"

 

I'm sure you don't give a crap what I think, but posts like that make it less likely I have any interest in engaging in meaningful football discussions with you.

 

Actually E-Man, I do care about your opinions to the degree that I love to discuss football/Buffalo Bills with you, and anyone else who has an objective opinion.

In the spirit of doing so, I remind you that Jauron was a head coach who nobody seemed to want, who was hired by a GM who nobody seemed to want for a decade. They are both Ivy League Grads, and count me as one who admires the hell out of people who are this smart. I even like them both as people; they seem to be great guys. But, I have serious questions/reservations about their methods of building a winning football team. Not too sure, but I kinda think that I am entitled to this as a crazed, devoted fan, ya know?

 

I am hoping for the best as much as you, but seeing the same (imo) mistakes made time and again ruffles my feathers. Either way, my point is that we are on the same side. I wish that I could think as positive as you but in any event, my fingers are crossed for a miracle. WNY and Bills Fans accross the country/world really do deserve one.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lurker]

Why is Jauron always saddled with QB problems?

 

This is a guy who's had complete personnel authority for two franchises and hasn't figured it out. IMO, you can't blame QB play when the coach is in charge of getting the person to play the position! If he's not finding the right guy to play under center, it's his own dang fault.

Oh, I see now. Dick was the guy who drafted JP (by telepathy, no doubt, since he was out of football that year) and Edwards all by his lonesome. He's the guy responsible for the clusterfuk in CHI when Mike McCaskey played GM and then Jerry Angelo came in and took all the credit for success and none of the blame for personnel failures. In fact, he's the guy who seperated Jim Miller's shoulder in the 2001 playoff game wth the Eagles.

 

I now realize that you must be the guy who created firedickjauron.com.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Most coaches are saddled with QB problems.

 

And, Bill Parcells had a team with Ray Lucas and Rick Mirer as the starting QBs and still did not have a losing season.

 

I am hoping for the best as much as you, but seeing the same (imo) mistakes made time and again ruffles my feathers. Either way, my point is that we are on the same side. I wish that I could think as positive as you but in any event, my fingers are crossed for a miracle. WNY and Bills Fans accross the country/world really do deserve one.

 

Bill, don't sweat the divisive grand standing. The notion that real fans must be Polyannas doesn't hold any real weight. Besides, if nobody took the other side in any conversation, this place would be as boring as watching a cowpie dry in the field.

 

Other fun facts.

 

Dick Jauron had complete control of player personnel in Chicago. Look it up.

 

Jauron's starting QBs by year:

1999: Miller 3, Matthews 7, and McNown 6

2000: Miller 2, Matthews 5, and McNown 9

2001: Matthews 3, and Miller 13

2002: Burris 1, Chandler 7, and Miller 8

2003: Grossman 3, Chandler 6, Stewart 7

2006: Losman 16

2007: Edwards 9, Losman 7

 

Now, to claim from this data that Jauron hasn't switched QBs often over the years seems a bit off. As I said previously, there are only 2 instances where a QB posted double digit starts. We can dissect this with various excuses though. Injuries (sounds familiar), bad offensive coordinators, Jauron not getting a chance, evil GMs without signing authority undermining Dick's masterful personnel moves (he was the one that pulled the trigger on both McNown and Grossman), bad hair days, black helicopters, ...

 

And that's not hating on Teflon Dick. I want him to be successful and I want him to show that he can do it because the Buffalo Bills have hitched their wagon to him. But, the bottom line is he needs to put up more than a collection of excuses.

[colin]

qbs make coaches. marvin lewis is crap because his team is all punks and have no self control. oh, he also has CARSON FRIGGEN PALMER!!.

 

could you imagine our team today if we just traded jp loseman for palmer? evans would be a 1800+ 14 td+ super star. it's true that a bad team around a qb brings down his play, but it's also true that a stud at qb does more with less.

 

i like jauron, dunno if he is good enough to all they way or not (but most people here would have told you coughlin and especially gilbride were terrible, that eli sucked, and that they didn't spend enough high picks on the oline) but the bottom line is without at least good and usually great qb play you can't win in the playoffs.

[eball]

Actually E-Man, I do care about your opinions to the degree that I love to discuss football/Buffalo Bills with you, and anyone else who has an objective opinion.

In the spirit of doing so, I remind you that Jauron was a head coach who nobody seemed to want, who was hired by a GM who nobody seemed to want for a decade. They are both Ivy League Grads, and count me as one who admires the hell out of people who are this smart. I even like them both as people; they seem to be great guys. But, I have serious questions/reservations about their methods of building a winning football team. Not too sure, but I kinda think that I am entitled to this as a crazed, devoted fan, ya know?

Bill, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Saying you have reservations about the way Jauron/Levy try to build a winning football team and saying "I have zero faith in Jauron and hope he's fired" (to paraphrase) are, to me, different things, however, and the latter doesn't exactly come across as an objective, reasoned opinion.

 

I have never asked for this board to be one that praises every decision made by the Bills' front office. I question plenty of their decisions. What I try not to do, however, is make blanket statements as if I'm some know-it-all.

 

I am hoping for the best as much as you, but seeing the same (imo) mistakes made time and again ruffles my feathers. Either way, my point is that we are on the same side. I wish that I could think as positive as you but in any event, my fingers are crossed for a miracle.

I'm an optimistic person by nature. I don't see the point in waking up every day looking for bad things to happen. I'm not naive and I'm almost always prepared for what comes my way. I rarely blame others for what happens, because doing so makes me a victim. Unfortunately, the core of Buffalo Bills fans are the textbook definition of that word. If you truly believe it will be a "miracle" if the Bills are successful this year I think you fall into that category as well.

 

We agree, it appears, on one thing -- we both root for the Bills to come out on top on Sundays in the fall. We just go about it differently.

[K-9]

Other fun facts.

 

Dick Jauron had complete control of player personnel in Chicago. Look it up....

 

Seems a bit revisionist after I did look some of this stuff up. I read the following and got the distinct impression when Angelo came in the spring of '01 Jauron had anything BUT complete control over player personnel. I also got the impression his players love him.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

2001 Chicago Bears-Season of Good Fortune

By Roy Taylor, www.BearsHistory.com

 

Analogously, the magical 2001 Chicago Bears season as a whole mirrored its opening drive of the season. On that warm September 9th in Baltimore, two days before the world would change forever, the Bears were given absolutely no chance against the defending NFL champion's defense. But with noodle-armed Shane Matthews at quarterback, and hot-cold running back James Allen, Chicago drove the length of the field until they had 1st and goal inside the Raven's 10-yard line. Sadly, after three attempts from close range, the Bears couldn't get the ball in the end zone, and the team ended up losing to the defending champs 17-6. Just as the team went farther than anyone thought they could on that opening drive, this 2001 Bears team shocked the nation and knocked on the championship door, but sadly, the door slammed shut all too soon.

 

Preseason 2001 started with turmoil, much as Bears fans are used to. Mark Hatley, then Bears VP of Player Personnel, ran his final draft in April 2001. Rumors had been flying for months that Hatley was dissatisfied with Bears' management and wanted to leave. Publicly, though, no one involved would admit there was a single problem. During the draft, he made a solid selection by taking Michigan WR David Terrell, who was an absolute surprise to last to the Bears' seventh pick in the first round. In the second, a questionable pick was made with the selection of Terrell's teammate, running back Anthony Thomas. Thomas was rated as a durable straight-line runner with questionable speed and moves. Why pick another Curtis Enis, many said. Hatley completed the draft by selecting two offensive linemen, a defensive end, and the fastest man in the draft who had tested positive for marijuana.

 

In May, a press conference was called to announce Hatley's "mutual termination", a term that seemed to be coined by this Chicago Bears organization that seemed to be in utter disarray. Hatley stated that he was tired of losing, and felt partially responsible, so thought it would be best to leave the organization. Team President Ted Phillips agreed, and released Hatley. Interestingly, Hatley caught on with the same title in Green Bay, and his first move was to sign DT Jim Flanigan, whom was his very last cut in Chicago. Phillips announced the Bears would be hiring a bonified General Manager for the first time since the 1986 season. As the Bears don't seem to do anything without being controversial, Phillips declared the organization would be paying an executive search firm over a quarter-million dollars to screen prospective candidates, and the search would take over a month. After choosing between Philadelphia personnel man Tom Modrak, Denver director of college scouting Ted Sundquist, Tampa personnel man Jerry Angelo and others, Phillips finally named Angelo the teams' new GM in mid-June. At the press conference announcing the Angelo hire, he stated that anything for 2001 would only be "fine tuning".

 

If Angelo's moves from June to the opening of the season were "fine tuning", we would hate to see his wholesale housecleaning! The new GM promptly traded troubled QB Cade McNown to the Miami Dolphins for a song, and cut higher-priced and popular veterans Mike Wells, Bobby Engram and Barry Minter. Even CB Thomas Smith, signed in 2000 for $22 million, was shown the door in a smart move after Smith's inconsistent (at best) play the season before. While these moves proved to be necessary to shed salary from underproductive players as well as develop young talent, many saw them as Angelo's way to ensure a poor season from Coach Dick Jauron. Most believed Angelo wanted to see Jauron fail so he could hire his own coach in 2002.

 

Then Dick Jauron's players stepped to the defense of their favorite coach. Perhaps it was really true, that Cade McNown's dismal play and poor attitude had more of an effect on the rest of the players that were much more talented than their 2000 record reflected. After the opening day heart-breaker, the team was devastated in the locker room. They truly felt they were within grasp of beating the world champs, and had just fallen short. It wasn't the same feeling after a loss as they had been used to feeling for years before. The Bears were set to take on the Jacksonville Jaguars the next Sunday, but two days later, America reeled from multiple terrorist attacks on September 11th. The NFL decided to postpone September 18th's games to mourn the loss of thousands of her countrymen.

 

On September 23rd, the NFL resumed its games with its week three matchups. Chicago faced the Minnesota Vikings at home, and lost its starting quarterback Shane Matthews to a hip injury. At halftime, down 10-0, it was reported that players and coaches alike were livid about the teams' missed opportunities. Chicago came out fired up in the second half, and upset the Vikings 17-10. It would prove to be the start of something big. In the ensuing three weeks, the Bears beat Atlanta, Arizona, and Cincinnati by a combined score of 75-16. From Brian Urlacher and R.W. McQuarter's fumble recoveries against Atlanta and Arizona, to Anthony Thomas' 188-yard rushing performance against Cincinnati, the Bears were on fire. It was even announced that the TV networks were moving two upcoming Bear games to 3:00 starts to accomodate national television. For the Bears-the team most predicted to finish no better than 5-11 in 2001.

 

Then came the two games that will live on in most Bear fans' memories forever. Against San Francisco on October 28th, Chicago trailed 28-9 deep into the third quarter, and had lost starting QB Jim Miller to a side injury. Now-backup Shane Matthews responded with two long TD drives, the last to rookie David Terrell that brought the Bears within 2-points, 31-29 with less than a minute remaining in the game. Anthony "A-Train" Thomas then barrelled in for the tying two-point conversion, and the crowd went nuts. The high-powered San Francisco offense received the ball first in overtime. On their very first play, big-time wide receiver Terrell Owens cowered from an approaching Brian Urlacher hit, Mike Brown intercepted the pass and romped 33 yards for the winning score in what is now the shortest OT game in NFL history.

 

Chicago went crazy, figuring nothing could top this finish.

 

Wrong we were. The following week, an ineffective Shane Matthews-led offense trailed Cleveland 21-7 with less than one minute left in the game. Obnoxious Cleveland Brown fans ruled Soldier Field for the moment, as some Bear fans just hadn't learned from the week before and left early. With less than a minute left, Matthews hit Marty Booker with a TD to close the gap to 21-14. No chance, the Browns fans said. On the next play, Chicago recoved the onside kick. After several short passes moved the ball to the Cleveland 34, there was time for one final play. Right in front of the North endzone fans, Matthews heaved a pass toward the heavens, which seemingly in slow-motion fell into the outstreched hands of James Allen. Tie game, and the cheering Bear fans gave it back to the obnoxious Cleveland-ites. On the Browns' first possession of overtime, Bryan Robinson batted a third-down pass up in the air, Mike Brown performed deja-vu, and the Bears had pulled out the most improbable victory in a decade. The Bears were now 6-1 for the first time since 1991.

 

The magic wouldn't last against the hated Packers on Veteran's Day at Soldier Field. Despite having the ball inside the Pack 10, down by 8 points, the same hero James Allen couldn't hang on to a swing pass in the sun, and Green Bay won 20-12. Three more Bear victories followed that heartbreaker, over Tampa, the Vikings, and Detroit. At Minnesota, Chicago would hold their opponents without a touchdown for the first time since they had done it in 1995. Rookie David Terrell dropped two sure TD passes against Detroit, but the Bears still hung on thanks to three Jason Hanson field goal misses.

 

Then came the rematch at Green Bay, which the Bears lost again due to a poor offensive showing.

 

Regardless, Chicago was 9-3, and finished 13-3 with their first NFC Central Division Championship since 1990. The final four games were magical. Anthony Thomas tore the Buccaneers up on December 16th with a 173-yard performance. Brian Urlacher caught a TD pass to help beat Washington 20-15, and Dwayne Bates came out of the woodwork with a 100+ yard receiving day in the 24-0 victory at Detroit. And who will ever forget Keith Traylor's 67-yard romp with an interception in the regular season-ending victory over Jacksonville. The Bears were atop the division, and would host at least a divisional playoff game.

 

Philadelphia came into town as the lowest-seeded division winner, and the Bears were heavily favored. The Bears? Who would have thought? But Chicago looked ill-prepared offensively after Jim Miller was knocked out on a questionable hit by Hugh Douglas. In Soldier Field's final game, Da Bears, 2001's miracle team, lost their first home playoff game in a decade, 33-17. Despite the final letdown, 2001 was magical indeed, from NFC Coach of the Year Dick Jauron to Offensive Rookie of the Year Anthony Thomas, the guy everyone questioned picking. Bear fans looked ahead to 2002 with a vigor unknown on opening day in a decade, which would begin in a city far, far away....

[Lurker]

Other fun facts.

 

Dick Jauron had complete control of player personnel in Chicago. Look it up.

I'm having trouble finding that bit of information. How about providing a source for our edification?

 

Mark Hatley ran the draft and signed free agents from 1999-01, followed by Angelo in 2001.