crackur Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 wow.......I never would have thought and that's scary.... a very selfish act......killing one's self is not a great thing to do, but taking someone elses is nothin more than being beyond selfish and mentally unstable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Terrible, Terrible, Terrible We all are going to react differently to this kind of event. Murder is the worst thing anyone can do. There is no need for us to turn on each other or bicker though. It diminishes the brutal reality of the circumstances and disrespects all those that have had their lives destroyed in the past 2 days. We really have no footing to proclaim how we should all feel, so long as the reality of the actions are not lost on any of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 http://www.poststar.com/articles/2006/09/1...44936088482.txt most indepth report yet. 774754[/snapback] So he cheated on his wife and then killed her???? WOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I disagree. I believe a reaction of RIP or "Rest in Peace" is unwarranted for any person who takes a life - their own or otherwise. You cannot take a life without taking others too. Pieces of other lifes are ripped to shreds. Whole families are torn apart. This, my friends, is the last - most despicable act. Because it has NO mercy. There are no takebacks. No healing. It is the most violence that you can bring. Killing. I restrained myself from the lovefest that accompanied the first suicide. Lionizing and finding meaning - "he went to meet his love" crap. Not while children and family are left to pick up the pieces and sort thru their own feelings of hurt, guilt and shame. And suicide breeds suicide. Children of parents who kill themselves, are themselves at a far greater risk. It becomes acceptable. Cool even in some strange circles. And it is not acceptable. It is vile and evil. It is the different side of the same coin murder/suicide. Do you think that it is only coincidental or accidental that family of those who kill themselves are pained by guilt and remorse? It ain't. It is the purpose of the whole thing. And I am glad that at least in this case (murder) we see the act for what it is. Violence against the world. Anger and violence against the family. Do you suffer from pain? There is a sure way out. I swear this will work. I promise it will work. If you suffer from pain, admit it. Recognize it. Now go and find someone else who has pain. And make it your lifes work to take away their pain. And as you do that; as you take care of another, your pain will subside. Suicide and murder are simply attempting to lay pain on someone else. When you spend your days ruminating about laying the wood to someone else, maybe even someone who harmed you, you descend into the hell that will consume you. To get out, start by getting someone else out. When you become a loving person, you cannot bring yourself to hurt. But when you are preoccupied with being a beast and hating, you become a partner to death and destruction. And when you do that, you deserve our contempt. Not our regards. May those who have spent their life in service, when they die, may THEY rest in peace. 774761[/snapback] I don't mean this as harshly as it will sound, but I think the 'solution' you offer is steeped in ignorance of mental illness. While there is certainly value in what you say, and I think it's a very healthy option for those who are in good mental health, the gray area of psychological illness is quite vast. I don't condone suicide by any means, but in my opinion there are very clear and significant differences between the two examples we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Just got back from a bar, this story came up on the news and I just had to leave when it aired. Couldn't even look. Still feel absolutely disgusted with what he did, cant wrap my mind around it at all just yet. If anyone finds anything out about donating some money to his children under an anonymous heading, please let me know. I dont have much being a grad student, but I want to give something to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatPatPatSack Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 gray area of psychological illness is quite vast. 774780[/snapback] Sure we can debate the fine points of cognition and reality too. Bottom line is that this is not steeped in ignorance of mental illness. It is a prescription. And a prescription is what you give an ill man. And a prescription, a solution, a path - whatever, is preferable to a response of "golly who can fathom the mind? peace be to them " In fact mental illness can and does respond to the same triggers that we respond to. But your point is to say the mind is sick, so reasonble answers need not apply. Wrong. Our responce to violence and murder should be the same. We are trying to change behavior, not someones temporary mental status. If I said, 'walking is good for you. people should walk more'. You wouldn't say that I must be ignorant of the whole nature of arthritic diseases. Now that would be construed as an excuse. When you can't walk - obviously we gotta do something else. But until then, it is still worth trying to walk. And to walk in spite of the difficulty is a step (ugh) in the direction of healing to an arthritic man. I am sorry that a simple prescription seems to be too simple. But I did not want to simply growl at the world of darkness and evil. Rather, I thought to offer a way to change behavior. Because all that I heard after the suicide of our board partner was blather that can only end in events such as todays. Again - simply as possible - to those who feel pain, your reaction can be inflicting pain on others - or it can be mitigating the pain of others. Choose the latter, and that is what will free you from YOUR pain. It works for the arthritic, for the lame, for the mentally ill, and for the mentally well. It will not make you mentally well. It won't cure leprosy. It won't kick your habit. It will assuage your pain. I promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Sure we can debate the fine points of cognition and reality too. Bottom line is that this is not steeped in ignorance of mental illness. It is a prescription. And a prescription is what you give an ill man. And a prescription, a solution, a path - whatever, is preferable to a response of "golly who can fathom the mind? peace be to them " In fact mental illness can and does respond to the same triggers that we respond to. But your point is to say the mind is sick, so reasonble answers need not apply. Wrong. Our responce to violence and murder should be the same. We are trying to change behavior, not someones temporary mental status. If I said, 'walking is good for you. people should walk more'. You wouldn't say that I must be ignorant of the whole nature of arthritic diseases. Now that would be construed as an excuse. When you can't walk - obviously we gotta do something else. But until then, it is still worth trying to walk. And to walk in spite of the difficulty is a step (ugh) in the direction of healing to an arthritic man. I am sorry that a simple prescription seems to be too simple. But I did not want to simply growl at the world of darkness and evil. Rather, I thought to offer a way to change behavior. Because all that I heard after the suicide of our board partner was blather that can only end in events such as todays. Again - simply as possible - to those who feel pain, your reaction can be inflicting pain on others - or it can be mitigating the pain of others. Choose the latter, and that is what will free you from YOUR pain. It works for the arthritic, for the lame, for the mentally ill, and for the mentally well. It will not make you mentally well. It won't cure leprosy. It won't kick your habit. It will assuage your pain. I promise. 774790[/snapback] Even for arthritis, there is no "simple" effective prescription in a large percentage of cases. There are numerous causes, different parts of the body that are affected, different treatment modalities, different theories on what direction to go with research, etc, etc. On top of that, arthritis is much less subjective than mental illness. Pain is an indication that something is wrong. We define it individually, and what is painful for me may not be painful for you, and vice versa. It would be wonderful if in every single case we could assuage our pain simply by, as you say, recognizing its presence and then working to mitigate the pain of others, but I have seen enough to know that is not the case. The problem with your prescripton is that, at least in this instance,you don't even know the diagnosis. You don't know how far the man 'walked' from the time of his wife's passing until that of his own. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you knew very little about the man at all. You say the goal is not to change the mental status, but the behavior. What exactly do you think inspires behavior? Behavior is not typically a random event. There are reasons for it, and those reasons are often times very complex. A proper prescription requires first understanding the problem. And when it comes to problems of a psychological nature, the field is fifty parts theory to one part fact. And that's probably being generous. We can just agree to disagree, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txbillsjunkie Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 All I can say is...May God watch over the innocent children and the families left behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I guess we can be thankful, for as thankless a situation that this is, that he didn't spiral down even deeper and attempt to take some police officers with him in the woods. 774399[/snapback] That was a wonderful thing to say Scott. We can also be thankful (again, in a thankless situation) that he took the baby to his mothers' house. I have seen these situations get worse than this one, if you can imagine. I pray that the babies can recover from this trauma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?ne..._id=17708&rfi=6 http://www.poststar.com/articles/2006/09/1...44936088482.txt http://www.poststar.com/articles/2006/09/1...4b649557494.txt http://www.poststar.com/articles/2006/09/1...df614547076.txt http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pb...5/NEWS/60915024 http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll...6/NEWS/60915016 http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story...?storyID=517464 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichFan Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 What a disgusting chain of events. A cowardly and selfish act with devastating consequences. For the kids, the parents, the friends -- thoughts and prayers go out to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 any one thet would like the news story http://www.wten.com/ 774701[/snapback] again i say....wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 This is just absolutely terrible. What he did was a horrendous act & in no way should be excused or condoned. However, I think we can be certain that he did not wake up that day thinking "I think I'll kill my wife & myself today." If any good can come from this, it is perhaps a reminder to all that anger can be as insidious as addictive drugs. To all those who perhaps let anger get the better of them on occasion(myself included), just remember to walk away before it is all too late. If you can see that you have a problem....be a man....admit it & get some help. The potential consequences are just too great not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 wnyt this morning had pictures of the kids with bills jerseys on , #11. looked like the pic may have been taken in buffalo . after seeing the kids i do not know how he could have done what he did . so sad . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolstoy Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I did not know T80, but I certainly knew his online persona. This is a terrible tragedy for the family--the wife, their children, and all those who love them. If there is anyone here who is close to the family, it would be appropriate to contact SDS and set up a donation fund for the children. I would contribute. What strikes me about all of this is how divorced from reality on-line communication is. We pretend to have communities and friends on-line, but we are deluding ourselves. If this were a real community, and all of us real acquaintances, this would have been less likely to happen. Real communities spend face-to-face time with one another, and support one another when there is trouble, or signs of trouble. We are facing a brave new world of communities where people put their happy face on when posting, but are lonely, depressed, angry, or suicidal at their home. God help us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kegtapr Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I restrained myself from the lovefest that accompanied the first suicide. Lionizing and finding meaning - "he went to meet his love" crap. Not while children and family are left to pick up the pieces and sort thru their own feelings of hurt, guilt and shame. And suicide breeds suicide. Children of parents who kill themselves, are themselves at a far greater risk. It becomes acceptable. Cool even in some strange circles. 774761[/snapback] Don't bring Paul (Bib) into this. You have no idea what family he had, what contact he had with them, his life story, etc.... There is no need to rehash that event with the announcement of this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolstoy Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Don't bring Paul (Bib) into this. You have no idea what family he had, what contact he had with them, his life story, etc.... There is no need to rehash that event with the announcement of this one. 774841[/snapback] Excuse me for my ignorance. What is this previous tragedy to which people are referring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Excuse me for my ignorance. What is this previous tragedy to which people are referring? 774843[/snapback] Don't worry about it. This board is like "The Firm" you can quit but you can't get out alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I did not know T80, but I certainly knew his online persona. This is a terrible tragedy for the family--the wife, their children, and all those who love them. If there is anyone here who is close to the family, it would be appropriate to contact SDS and set up a donation fund for the children. I would contribute. What strikes me about all of this is how divorced from reality on-line communication is. We pretend to have communities and friends on-line, but we are deluding ourselves. If this were a real community, and all of us real acquaintances, this would have been less likely to happen. Real communities spend face-to-face time with one another, and support one another when there is trouble, or signs of trouble. We are facing a brave new world of communities where people put their happy face on when posting, but are lonely, depressed, angry, or suicidal at their home. God help us all. 774840[/snapback] Very interesting take. I like to post on various boards on various subjects; yet at the same time, I have very little off-line interaction with any of the posters for the very reasons you cite: you just don't know who's really out there. Much easier & 'safer' to stick with friends who you know from previous face-to-face meetings, IMO anyways. That being said: by taking that stance, it's a lot easier for me to seperate real life (off-line) from non-real life (on-line). That is why I absolutely abhor what T80 did in RL but will maybe even more-so miss him in non-RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 What strikes me about all of this is how divorced from reality on-line communication is. 774840[/snapback] "Reality" is the only word in the English language that should always be used in quotes. God bless the children and family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 What strikes me about all of this is how divorced from reality on-line communication is. We pretend to have communities and friends on-line, but we are deluding ourselves. If this were a real community, and all of us real acquaintances, this would have been less likely to happen. Real communities spend face-to-face time with one another, and support one another when there is trouble, or signs of trouble. 774840[/snapback] You are a bit off the mark on this one. There are quite a few pockets of friends that see each other regularly and we many of us see each other at various games throughout the year. What you don't see are the phone calls, the emails, the PM's, the off-site communities, etc... So, while I understand your point - it is not entirely true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JÂy RÛßeÒ Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I am thankful that whatever drove him to this left in time for him to bring his daughter to his parents I am thankful that whatever drove him to this did not compel him to go to his other kids' school I am thankful that, as SDS has said, he decided not to take anyone else with him And I am thankful that he was at least forced to confess his actions to his parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Or guilt. Could have felt awfult for a moment of extreme insanity. Whole lot of judgement going on by a good number of people who never even knew his real name before now. Fine and dandy...people need to pass judgement, it's part of explaining the inexplicable. Don't mistake it for insight, though. And just because you (the general "you", not you specifically, Jamiebuf12) have an opinion, it doesn't mean you need to share it. Keep in mind, Thailog80's older kids could potentially be reading this... 774644[/snapback] Please, everyone, read Tom's post. Its perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Tragic story. Scares the BeJesus out of me because my oldest daughter is going through a similar situation right now. They did get divorced, but live only 2 miles from each other. They also are trying to work things out. They and their 3 kids have been spending a lot of time together, lately. My son in law has a side where he comes off as the nicest kindest persons you would ever want to know, and he uses that to keep friends an family, sympathetic to him, and make my daughter out as the bad person. But he has a very dark side, with several instances when the police had to become involved. He has never to my knowledge touched my daughter but he has threatened her, to a point where my daughter got a temporary restraining order and had him removed from the home. This man is an expert hunter and has a mutitude of weapons in his home. Again they are now trying to work things out, so I keep my opinions to myself, but am watching closely. On a side note to SDS. Just my opinion, but when news like this happens, and the story is put up on TBD. I dont see the need for any further discussion by the other members. As in this case some people knew T80 personally and although they need a place to grieve for their friend and discuss their feelings. Sometimes it leads to cruel and hateful things being said, along with sidewalk Psychiatrists, engaging in an endless analyzation of the tragic circumstances, with the goal of oneupsmanship, being their only goal. God Bless the families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackur Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I don't think people are actually being mean or hateful with their words here. I think people are just so blown away with what the children will have to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I don't think people are actually being mean or hateful with their words here. I think people are just so blown away with what the children will have to deal with. 774906[/snapback] Didnt mean it was happening in this instance, but just dont see the need, thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick in* england Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 This is terrible, sickening, and it ust goes to show you don't know anybody... Man - I am just gald I never met Kelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
***PetrinoInAlbany*** Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 There's a lesson in this... If you or anyone you know has even the slightest hint that they might be suffering from depression, see a doctor. It's so easy to treat. It's a simple chemical imbalance and it's the easiest thing in the world to treat. Kelly used to e-mail me from time to time when he found out I lived in East Greenbush, about fifteen miles south of Granville. He was a true Bills fan and reached out his hand in friendship on more than one occasion. We had our tongue-in-cheek "arguments" out in the open forums of PP&P and The Wall, but individually he was a gentleman and - like the rest of us - a Bills fan and a family man. Let's all pray for his family. As a Christian, I know that God forgives anything a person does that's not of his own will. Depression is no joke, and it causes irational actions if not treated. It's a disease. May Jesus welcome him in Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I didnt know him personally, but prayers to t-80's kids and to his wife's family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phlegm Alley Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I, for one, didn't know T80's real name before this, however, we did share the mutual bond of enjoying BB football and NYY baseball to which we communicated extensively. He came of as being sharp, and eloquent with a wise sense of humor in many of his posts and I would look forward to reading what he had to say. However, it goes to show you that most of us will never know who that poster is that is writing and what kind of personal demons they have to deal with on a daily basis. This is why many are fortunate to have the TBD community, being able to post common knowledge and love of shared topics under the cloak of anonymity without worries of communal persecution with regard to their personal afflictions. I am not here to pass judgement. I am here to write about someone who WAS part of our on-line community and participated with thorough acute knowledge of similar interests. I pray for the well being of the three children along with family and those who knew these individuals personally and have to shoulder the burden of trying to make sense of why this had to happen. I know that if there was anything that I could have done to prevent this unfortunate occurence I would have done whatever I could. Everyone needs to stop passing judgment becuase they have no idea what would push this man to do the unspeakable thing that he did, nor are you in any position to persecute someone based on this passing knowledge that has been afforded to us at this time. My prayers and condolences to the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 I am unpinning this thread since the majority of the day to day posters here have probably heard the news. I thought that it was important that the community be aware of what was currently happening with one of our most prominent members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfladave Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I'm stunned! My thoughts and prayers go out to the two families and especially the children who are sure to be devestated by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Everyone needs to stop passing judgment becuase they have no idea what would push this man to do the unspeakable thing that he did, nor are you in any position to persecute someone based on this passing knowledge that has been afforded to us at this time. 774957[/snapback] Well, apparently there's very little room for misinterpretation of the facts surrounding this case: T80 was a guy with a history of domestic violence and adultery who killed his wife and himself. His cheery on-line persona and extensive knowledge of Bills football doesn't take away those facts. If some of you are unable to take a stand and say that T80 was a bad person, then at least have some moral continuity: never take a stand against ANYONE EVER. Because there are always "mitigating" circumstances behind every murderer and rapist and serial killer and wife beater...mental illness, bad childhood, lack of impulse control, etc... These "mitigating" circumstances may help us understand why these things happen and can help us prevent future tragedies, but they NEVER justify or excuse the behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Well, apparently there's very little room for misinterpretation of the facts surrounding this case: T80 was a guy with a history of domestic violence and adultery who killed his wife and himself. His cheery on-line persona and extensive knowledge of Bills football doesn't take away those facts. If some of you are unable to take a stand and say that T80 was a bad person, then at least have some moral continuity: never take a stand against ANYONE EVER. Because there are always "mitigating" circumstances behind every murderer and rapist and serial killer and wife beater...mental illness, bad childhood, lack of impulse control, etc... These "mitigating" circumstances may help us understand why these things happen and can help us prevent future tragedies, but they NEVER justify or excuse the behavior. 774985[/snapback] http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=774644 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 RIP and may a higher power ease the burden of those left behind in pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ieatcrayonz Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I hope his kids never see this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=774644 774992[/snapback] The only worthy point made by DCTom in that linked post was that we should all STFU out of respect for T80's children. I have no problem with that, and would suggest only a silent thread or a thread to start up an anonymous donation to T80's family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyBall4Buffalo Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 What a horrible and cruel act, that there is no excuse for. No possible justification. It's completly vile. I didnt know him personally, only from his posts. Nor was I aware of his family situation, and while words mean relatively little in the greater scope of things, Id just like to send out my deepest condolences to his children, and his wifes family for their losses. I cant even begin to imagine what they're going thru, but I hope time eventually helps to start to heal these wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorCal Aaron Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I hope his kids never see this thread. 774999[/snapback] Exactly what will they theoretically see here that they won't be bombarded with in the press, tv or real world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 I hope his kids never see this thread. 774999[/snapback] Several people have expressed this sentiment and while I certainly understand trying to shield the kids, particularly the oldest, from additional pain, I am uncertain what we would be shielding them from. 1. I doubt he is surfing the internet right now while with his extended family. 2. What words written on a computer screen could even approach the magnitude of grief of losing both parents due to the actions of his father? again, I understand the sentiment, but if the idea is that the oldest shouldn't read unflattering things about his father - I'm not sure that would even be a blip on his radar screen right now. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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