Last Guy on the Bench Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I definitely don't know a whole lot about techincal offensive line play. I'm one of the guys who usually just follows the ball. However, because of that, I do occasionally force myself to concentrate on things like the OL for several plays, just to try and learn something and see the game from a different angle. When I did that last year, it always seemed to me that Jason Peters' pass blocking was excellent, but that he didn't do much in the run game. He looked awkward, didn't seem to move his guy, would often end up in a bit of a mess around the ball carrier. Does anyone who watches the line more frequently or with more knowledge have an opinion on this? I know the generally accepted info nugget is that Peters is a better pass blocker than run blocker, but is his run blocking really as big a liability as it looked like to my uneducated eyes? (Mike Williams, on the other hand, always looked pretty sweet run blocking to me.) Can anyone break him down in more detail? (Specific strengths and weaknesses, places he is likely to improve vs. things he will probably always struggle with, etc.) Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'm no guru (talk to JSP or Bill in NYC), but I saw the same thing. Peters' run blocking was more in the way of sealing off / leaning on the defender, rather than just knocking him back through sheer power. I'd expect Jason's been in an intensive weight-training program this off-season and it will be interesting to see how he looks if he shows up for mini camp this weekend. Still, my guess is that he'll always be more of a finese guy, given his movement skills (which are what really allow him to pass block as effectively as he does given his limited experience at the OT position). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 as much of a bust as he was mike williams was a mauling monster on running plays. compared to him peters will look weak, but is his issue not getting in the right position for run blocking or his overall strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'm no guru (talk to JSP or Bill in NYC), but I saw the same thing. Peters' run blocking was more in the way of sealing off / leaning on the defender, rather than just knocking him back through sheer power. I'd expect Jason's been in an intensive weight-training program this off-season and it will be interesting to see how he looks if he shows up for mini camp this weekend. Still, my guess is that he'll always be more of a finese guy, given his movement skills (which are what really allow him to pass block as effectively as he does given his limited experience at the OT position). 684510[/snapback] Thanks for that info, Lurker. Things like that really do help out us Bills fans who only get to see the one, two, sometimes three games that end up being shown in our locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I agree. What's strange is that McNally clearly likes or at least doesn't mind the fat drive-blocking type (Bennie, Gibson, Merz) but his likely starting lineup will be filled only with seal/position types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I agree. What's strange is that McNally clearly likes or at least doesn't mind the fat drive-blocking type (Bennie, Gibson, Merz) but his likely starting lineup will be filled only with seal/position types. 684520[/snapback] Probably just a matter of what position they're playing...fat guys inside, dancing bears at the OT's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 This is why Peters will eventually move to Left Tackle..... Peters might be the biggest TE the world has seen....but he is STILL a biult up TE and weight room strength is not as good as natural strenghth.... This is not to say that Peters wont make a good RT....I suspect he will especially in the pass blocking department....but he will not be the guy who pushes and mauls DE's down the field for 10 yards... But He will also not be the RT that doesn't move his feet or lunges and allows his QB to get shallacked.....or allows Magehee to get hit in the backfield on every other play....... He is def not the weakness in our line.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in KC Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 as much of a bust as he was mike williams was a mauling monster on running plays. compared to him peters will look weak, but is his issue not getting in the right position for run blocking or his overall strength? 684515[/snapback] I rewatched each game last season (TiVo) with the express purpose of trying to learn more about O-Line play. I am convinced Peters was our best O-lineman last year. My criticism of Peters is definitely NOT his strength - - this guy is a monster. But he does need more coaching on technique and positioning. I am no guru, but I'd say he plays with his arms too far extended. He should engage his man head-on with both arms in tight, but instead hits them at arms length and loses his power. Peters is definitely quick enough. His pass blocking is good because the defender has to come to him and he can react quickly. For run-blocking he isn't awful, but sometimes gets caught trying to choose and lock onto a defender to block. He's not very good "in space." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'm no guru (talk to JSP or Bill in NYC), but I saw the same thing. Peters' run blocking was more in the way of sealing off / leaning on the defender, rather than just knocking him back through sheer power. I'd expect Jason's been in an intensive weight-training program this off-season and it will be interesting to see how he looks if he shows up for mini camp this weekend. Still, my guess is that he'll always be more of a finese guy, given his movement skills (which are what really allow him to pass block as effectively as he does given his limited experience at the OT position). 684510[/snapback] you have inadvertantly hit on the problem with our OL in the past. Our brilliant OC used plays designed for teh OL to blow people off the ball. Even with the best OL, this is unlikely to be consistently successful because DTs have gotten so big. The more successful blocking schemes are desigened to move the DL sideways and then have the RB pick a lane to cut back into. With more athletic OL, the Bills will return to trapping, pulling and running sweeps instead of trying to foce teh DL backwards on every play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 This is why Peters will eventually move to Left Tackle..... 684524[/snapback] I agree there. In this offseason, the Bills signed a right tackle in Gibson and drafted two right tackle prospects in Butler and Pennington. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 The more successful blocking schemes are desigened to move the DL sideways and then have the RB pick a lane to cut back into. With more athletic OL, the Bills will return to trapping, pulling and running sweeps instead of trying to foce teh DL backwards on every play. 684541[/snapback] Denver's the text book example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stussy109 Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Thanks for that info, Lurker. Things like that really do help out us Bills fans who only get to see the one, two, sometimes three games that end up being shown in our locations. 684519[/snapback] NFL sunday ticket? well worth the money if you sign up early! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 NFL sunday ticket? well worth the money if you sign up early! 684565[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Guy on the Bench Posted May 5, 2006 Author Share Posted May 5, 2006 Thanks, everyone. To me, this just reinforces the idea that his best position might be LT. Maybe even this year? I would assume that the technique things people are pointing out can and will improve, given that he is so inexperienced as an offensive lineman. He is fun to watch, at any rate, because he moves so well for such a huge guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 The more successful blocking schemes are desigened to move the DL sideways and then have the RB pick a lane to cut back into. With more athletic OL, the Bills will return to trapping, pulling and running sweeps instead of trying to foce teh DL backwards on every play. Dare we say it...a return of the counter to the Bills playbook??? Gee Thurman only gained, what, 7,000 yards rushing on that play. Maybe we should have left that one in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zona Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Denver's the text book example. 684543[/snapback] yeah, they've only have about 10 different guys go over a 1000 yards a season in the last 10 seasons. If you ever their offensive line, they are positively svelt. Average size about 295, and they can all move. One of the biggest misconceptions in the NFL is that you need a mauler type to have an effective run game blocker. You dont need to pancake anybody in the NFL. All you have to do is keep your guy occupied for about 2 seconds. I dont care if you tell him a story. Just keep him busy for 2 seconds and then the RB is long gone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 yeah, they've only have about 10 different guys go over a 1000 yards a season in the last 10 seasons. If you ever their offensive line, they are positively svelt. Average size about 295, and they can all move. One of the biggest misconceptions in the NFL is that you need a mauler type to have an effective run game blocker. You dont need to pancake anybody in the NFL. All you have to do is keep your guy occupied for about 2 seconds. I dont care if you tell him a story. Just keep him busy for 2 seconds and then the RB is long gone.... 684794[/snapback] Cut blocks help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Thanks, everyone. To me, this just reinforces the idea that his best position might be LT. Maybe even this year? 684575[/snapback] I think it needs to be this year....If they think he can do it, he has this entire season to acclimate himself to the position and then improve from there. I really think our younger guys need to play early and often this season. I think Marv and Dick are on the same page based on some of what I've heard them say, so hopefully they'll follow through with that plan. You can't just put the same product on the field as last year....if they want to blow it up, then really blow it up, put the young guys out there, give them AMPLE time to adjust to the NFL, and then evaluate them. I don't see how we can take any other approach this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ax4782 Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 When looking at the OL, there are two things you have to remember. In pass blocking, the OTs are using upper body strength and their arms to keep pass rushers at bay. Upper body strength and leverage are the keys to a good pass blocker. Peters, because of his TE training is has good upper body strength and good hand and arm coordination, thus making him a good pass blocker. Run blocking on the other hand is about getting low and driving your opponent away from a certain area. This is about not only getting low, but having really good lower body strength and good footwork. Peters' training as a TE probably did not focus as much on the need for serious lower body strength and blocking footwork. With a new conditioning coach who can help him get his lower body strength up, and a full year with McNally getting his technique up to par, he could be a very good tackle for the Bills in years to come. And that would help. I'd rather not risk another first round pick on an OL after what happened with Mike Williams. GO SABRES!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ax4782 Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 And ajzepp: LOVE THE AVATAR! That's one of my favorite BC movies, behind A of D of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 And ajzepp: LOVE THE AVATAR! That's one of my favorite BC movies, behind A of D of course. 684804[/snapback] Right on! Bubba Ho-Tep is one of my all-time favorites....probably top ten. I think it's a total shame that more people have not seen this movie!! Probably most BC fans have seen it, but my gosh, it's such a good flick! It's got it all.....humor, drama, suspense, and it's socially relevant! I've probably seen it about four times now....loved it more every time. I actually just got around to seeing AofD about two weeks ago.....I enjoyed Evil Dead II but LOVED AofD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ax4782 Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Right on! I own it. Love the movie and love BC. Look for his cameo in the third Spider-Man movie next May. Also, rumor is, they're making a Fourth installment of the Evil Dead series, following up on A of D. Nothing solid yet, but ... one can hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'm no guru (talk to JSP 684510[/snapback] since does constant whining and bitching about the o-line qualify 1 as a guru? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Right on! I own it. Love the movie and love BC. Look for his cameo in the third Spider-Man movie next May. Also, rumor is, they're making a Fourth installment of the Evil Dead series, following up on A of D. Nothing solid yet, but ... one can hope. 684818[/snapback] I'll pretty much watch anything he's in....he's entertaining as hell I'm still holding out hope for Bubba Nosferatu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Probably just a matter of what position they're playing...fat guys inside, dancing bears at the OT's. 684522[/snapback] Don't forget a FB or TE to nail the crap out of a LB. That's gotta be one of my favorite things in football - to see a LB get absolutely hammered by a TE or FB. Makes me miss sam gash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'll pretty much watch anything he's in....he's entertaining as hell I'm still holding out hope for Bubba Nosferatu! 684834[/snapback] You are right about Bruce, he is entertaining. Some of the movies are great...some not so much, but he's always good. I have not seen Bubba Ho-tep, but now I'll have to. Another guy who I love to see in any B movie is Jeffrey Combs. He kills me, Oops...starting to veer off topic so...GO BILLS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I rewatched each game last season (TiVo) with the express purpose of trying to learn more about O-Line play. I am convinced Peters was our best O-lineman last year. My criticism of Peters is definitely NOT his strength - - this guy is a monster. But he does need more coaching on technique and positioning. I am no guru, but I'd say he plays with his arms too far extended. He should engage his man head-on with both arms in tight, but instead hits them at arms length and loses his power. Peters is definitely quick enough. His pass blocking is good because the defender has to come to him and he can react quickly. For run-blocking he isn't awful, but sometimes gets caught trying to choose and lock onto a defender to block. He's not very good "in space." 684540[/snapback] Technique or coaching? A D-lineman wants to get inside of his man in order to beat him. O'line, in pass anyways, wants to use that big ol' hand and hit his defender at distance (see a Randall MacDaniel and that club) in order to minimise the defenders technique, keeping his body in front of the defender, hands out to guide. In run, it's more an individual technique, some lead with helmet and pads, but typically you again try and hit your defender and then keeping legs under you, bringing your body into him to drive/ seal him off. If your defender is hit and is stationary, they are the ones who need to restart their inertia, they have none- hence the search for guys with massively long/ built arms. Some guys aren't great in space, often a confidence thing- "what if I miss". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Jason Peters is still a very raw talent with extroadinary athletic ability and speed for a man gifted with his size. Mikey Williams is still a very raw talent with little athletic ability and speed and is not "gifted" with his size. He's cursed with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 You are right about Bruce, he is entertaining. Some of the movies are great...some not so much, but he's always good. I have not seen Bubba Ho-tep, but now I'll have to. Another guy who I love to see in any B movie is Jeffrey Combs. He kills me, Oops...starting to veer off topic so...GO BILLS! 684859[/snapback] Let me/us know what you think of Bubba after you see it.....if you like Campbell's schtick, he takes it to another level and then channels the spirt of Elvis for good measure Ozzie Davis plays JFK ( ) and it's one of his last roles prior to his passing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Right on! Bubba Ho-Tep is one of my all-time favorites....probably top ten. I think it's a total shame that more people have not seen this movie!! Probably most BC fans have seen it, but my gosh, it's such a good flick! It's got it all.....humor, drama, suspense, and it's socially relevant! I've probably seen it about four times now....loved it more every time. I actually just got around to seeing AofD about two weeks ago.....I enjoyed Evil Dead II but LOVED AofD! 684811[/snapback] If you liked Bubba Ho-Tep, try a British movie called 'Shaun of the Dead'. Absolutely bloody marvelous. I don't know how much you will get into the Brit humour but I figure if you liked BH-T you'll like SOTD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 since does constant whining and bitching about the o-line qualify 1 as a guru? 684820[/snapback] Shhhhhh....I was using reverse psychology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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