SDS Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Many fans have made similar statements here that Roth makes in his mini-column today. "San Diego drafted and groomed a top quarterback, Drew Brees, who tossed four touchdowns Sunday. Buffalo is just starting to groom one, J.P. Losman, after taking a three-year detour with Drew Bledsoe." Drafted and groomed? WTF is this? Despite the "can do no wrong" BS that is floating around here (wrt Butler/Smith) and in Leo's column, reality states that SD was sooooo bad that had the top pick in the draft, traded that pick away to the NYG and selected ANOTHER GD QB! Is that how they "groomed" Drew Brees Leo??? Is that how sharp AJ is that he didn't even know the talent he had on his own roster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick in* england Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Exactly! SD got lucky with Brees breaking out just as they got lucky with Gates and LT2's continuing performance. Football management is a crapshoot - you can do so much until you have to let fate decide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Revisionist history at its worst...on a Monday AM that couldnt BE worse. And "three year detour" with DB? Please. That was the right move at the right time. Even DB's biggest detractors as time went on and DB's play got worse can admit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick in* england Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Revisionist history at its worst...on a Monday AM that couldnt BE worse. And "three year detour" with DB? Please. That was the right move at the right time. Even DB's biggest detractors as time went on and DB's play got worse can admit that. 508813[/snapback] True but it doesn't help that DB is doing well in Dallas and my buddy (cowboys fan) loves rubbing it in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Flanders Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 There is no more "grooming" process in the NFL...there was a day where a QB, or any other player, could spend a couple, three years on the bench, watch, listen and learn. Think pre-free agency. Now, a player, whether drafted or FA, has to be plugged in immediatly. The learning curve is over. You're expected to show up in shape and contribute from the first day of mini-camp. Brees had a breakout year last season...he simply played his way into the Pro Bowl. Rivers will not be "groomed" for anything...he will likely be gone for a high draft pick after the season, ala "can't miss" Jacksonville backup Rob Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 SD got very lucky, but they also hired a great regular season coach who would be a lock for the HOF if not for playoff games, Coaching/HC Leadership is the biggest difference I see between the 2 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toledo Bill Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 SD got very lucky, but they also hired a great regular season coach who would be a lock for the HOF if not for playoff games, Coaching/HC Leadership is the biggest difference I see between the 2 teams. 508823[/snapback] Somthing I doubt we'll ever improve on under TD and his need for a submissive HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 True but it doesn't help that DB is doing well in Dallas and my buddy (cowboys fan) loves rubbing it in... 508818[/snapback] Take it from a guy who, unlike most posters, actually respects Bledsoe as a talented qb....Drew is NOT the only reason that Dallas is winning. Their starting RT is what, a rookie 5th round draft choice? Chris Canty and DeMarcus Ware, two more rookies, are tearing it up as well. Their prominent LT was injured, and a replacement held his own. When he was with the jests, Parcells selected 2 DEs (Ellis and Abraham) in the first round. He was able to get Fabini, a fairly good OT, in the 3rd round as I recall. He publically stated that he signed Mawhae because they had to face Big Ted twice each season. Parcells builds teams by bringing in tough defenders and talented blockers. TD built this Bills team by bringing in small wideouts and other offensive skill players, most of whom promptly injured. Mr. B did bring in some very good defensive players (Paup, Speilman and Cowart to name a few), but as SDS was kind enough to point out, failed miserably at building an OL. In this regard he was no better than TD; perhaps worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Up until that point, Brees had shown nothing and rather than stand pat and spin a rosy picture the way our GM does, AJ Smith decided to do something. He took the best player on the board. Having done that, Brees ended up playing at a high level and they will now trade Rivers. Having 2 good QBs on the roster is a good problem to have. In Buffalo, they could have done exactly what you propose... and remained faithful to Rob Johnson. But that agressiveness brought Doug Flutie into the fold and that's the reason you at least got to enjoy a few good playoff seasons in Buffalo. But of course, like most posters here, you'd probably say: Doug Flutie sucked, he was lucky (despite a 29-19 record)/ Wade Phillips was a horrible head coach (despite no losing seasons and a few playoff appearances) Many fans have made similar statements here that Roth makes in his mini-column today. "San Diego drafted and groomed a top quarterback, Drew Brees, who tossed four touchdowns Sunday. Buffalo is just starting to groom one, J.P. Losman, after taking a three-year detour with Drew Bledsoe." Drafted and groomed? WTF is this? Despite the "can do no wrong" BS that is floating around here (wrt Butler/Smith) and in Leo's column, reality states that SD was sooooo bad that had the top pick in the draft, traded that pick away to the NYG and selected ANOTHER GD QB! Is that how they "groomed" Drew Brees Leo??? Is that how sharp AJ is that he didn't even know the talent he had on his own roster? 508803[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 But of course, like most posters here, you'd probably say: Doug Flutie sucked, he was lucky (despite a 29-19 record)/ Wade Phillips was a horrible head coach (despite no losing seasons and a few playoff appearances) 508866[/snapback] Yeah, Wade Phillips was such a great head coach with a great record he got how many more head coaching jobs after the Bills? If you want an accurate depiction of Wade's tenure as Bills head coach, look at his record without Flutie as the starting QB. He's a good to great Defensive Coordinator, which is nothing to sneeze at, but a lousy head coach. And his buddy Joe Pendry is doing a bangup job as O-Coordinator for the Houston Texans I see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 SD got very lucky, but they also hired a great regular season coach who would be a lock for the HOF if not for playoff games, Coaching/HC Leadership is the biggest difference I see between the 2 teams. 508823[/snapback] Said "great regular season coach" is 9-18 (through the end of 2004, "even up" so far this year at 3-3 considering current records...) against teams with 8-8 or better record with the Chargers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Up until that point, Brees had shown nothing and rather than stand pat and spin a rosy picture the way our GM does, AJ Smith decided to do something. He took the best player on the board. Having done that, Brees ended up playing at a high level and they will now trade Rivers. Having 2 good QBs on the roster is a good problem to have. In Buffalo, they could have done exactly what you propose... and remained faithful to Rob Johnson. But that agressiveness brought Doug Flutie into the fold and that's the reason you at least got to enjoy a few good playoff seasons in Buffalo. But of course, like most posters here, you'd probably say: Doug Flutie sucked, he was lucky (despite a 29-19 record)/ Wade Phillips was a horrible head coach (despite no losing seasons and a few playoff appearances) 508866[/snapback] good post. flutie was 20-9 as a starter though; it was wade who was 29-19 (although i always say 30-18 because i factor in the just give it 'em game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Said "great regular season coach" is 9-18 (through the end of 2004, "even up" so far this year at 3-3 considering current records...) against teams with 8-8 or better record with the Chargers... 508884[/snapback] In 20 years, he's got 183 regular season wins in 304 games. That's an average of just under 10 wins every 16 games. I'd say that's pretty great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Brady Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 True but it doesn't help that DB is doing well in Dallas and my buddy (cowboys fan) loves rubbing it in... 508818[/snapback] And we get to spend Thanksgiving day eating our TURKEY claiming that it taste..........., mmmmm,mmmmmmmmmmmm.................... GOOD!!!!!!!! Watching Dallas beat Denver???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasoninMT Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 What sickens me with this whole Butler/Smith are GODS BS.... is the following.... Call me a TD apologist or whatever, but he inherited a team which was in Salary Cap Hell... we were over the cap and had to cut talent just to be able to follow the rules... Butler inherited a team with a ton of cap space and high draft choices... Now, what he did with those draft choices is a different story... he gave Michael Vick away to get LT and Brees fell into his lap as the first pick of the second round... Brees has been very inconsistent in SD... so much so that he's been worthy of being cut a couple times by the media... and enough so that they not only drafted Rivers, but Eli Manning as well... Plus, I don't see any championship rings in SD... so enough with the love fest already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Said "great regular season coach" is 9-18 (through the end of 2004, "even up" so far this year at 3-3 considering current records...) against teams with 8-8 or better record with the Chargers... 508884[/snapback] That's just dumb. The team he took over in SD was woeful. So was the team he took over in KC, who became consistent winners. The Browns went into the toilet after he left Cleveland. His 1 year in Washington they went 8-8, which was better than any of the surrounding seasons before or after. God, get a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 You're a bright guy, but this post doesn't reflect that. So you're telling me an accurate depiction of Wade Phillips is WITHOUT Doug Flutie? What the heck kind of logic is that? That's like saying an accurate measure of Marv's performance as a coach is without Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith. That has to be one of the worst arguments I have seen on this board. His record as a head coach speaks for itself. The only reason he hasn't gotten another head coaching job is because he is not a prototypical young star like Greg Williams and Mularkey. And they have done soo much for us haven't they? Yeah, Wade Phillips was such a great head coach with a great record he got how many more head coaching jobs after the Bills? If you want an accurate depiction of Wade's tenure as Bills head coach, look at his record without Flutie as the starting QB. He's a good to great Defensive Coordinator, which is nothing to sneeze at, but a lousy head coach. And his buddy Joe Pendry is doing a bangup job as O-Coordinator for the Houston Texans I see... 508876[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairweather fan Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 The Vick "Givaway" was not Butler's call, but the ownership's who had been burned by the greatest NFL quarterback draft bust ever a few years previous, Crying Ryan Leaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 In 20 years, he's got 183 regular season wins in 304 games. That's an average of just under 10 wins every 16 games. I'd say that's pretty great. 508900[/snapback] you do realize, don't you, that 10-6 over ten seasons works out 100-60, which is generally regarded as a dominant performance in baseball? 183-121 works out to a .600 winning percentage, which is actually quite spectacular in the pro football ranks ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Call me a TD apologist or whatever 508931[/snapback] When it comes to ranking recent Buffalo GM's, it goes like so: 1. Polian 2. Butler 3. Teflon If you disagree with this ranking, you might be a TD Apologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 You're a bright guy, but this post doesn't reflect that. So you're telling me an accurate depiction of Wade Phillips is WITHOUT Doug Flutie? What the heck kind of logic is that? That's like saying an accurate measure of Marv's performance as a coach is without Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith. That has to be one of the worst arguments I have seen on this board. His record as a head coach speaks for itself. The only reason he hasn't gotten another head coaching job is because he is not a prototypical young star like Greg Williams and Mularkey. And they have done soo much for us haven't they? 508994[/snapback] Wade didn't want Flutie. He was all about starting the "Phillips-Johnson era to replace the Levy-Kelly era" (I believe those are his exact words, but I could be a little off). If you want a window into Head Coach Wade's World, the team with Johnson is the more accurate. Flutie thrived independent of coaches plans. Busted plays are his bread and butter. You don't think the W-L record of Flutie is a testament to Pendry's coaching as well do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Wade didn't want Flutie. He was all about starting the "Phillips-Johnson era to replace the Levy-Kelly era" (I believe those are his exact words, but I could be a little off). If you want a window into Head Coach Wade's World, the team with Johnson is the more accurate. Flutie thrived independent of coaches plans. Busted plays are his bread and butter. You don't think the W-L record of Flutie is a testament to Pendry's coaching as well do you? 509045[/snapback] The main reason we won most of the games in the Wade era was because of our defense -- not because of either QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbills17 Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 good post. flutie was 20-9 as a starter though; it was wade who was 29-19 (although i always say 30-18 because i factor in the just give it 'em game). 508896[/snapback] Flutie was 20-9 and yet all the majority of the jokers on this board were constantly clamoring for Rob Johnson, the same way they all scream for JP to be the starter. I guess this board likes losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 First of all, Wade did want Flutie. He got sick of RJ very early on in his coaching tenure. It was Ralph who forced him to start RJ for the Tennessee playoff game and that was one of the major reasons why he was fired... because Ralph wanted the next coach to play Johnson while he wanted to keep Flutie. Afterall, it was Wade who installed him as the starter the moment the team started to win. The quote you refer to about the Phillips-Johnson era was made on the day we signed RJ to a long-term deal... he quickly changed his mind after watching him play. As for Pendry, he wasn't all that great a coordinator. But I think he managed to do well with what he had. And would I take him over Clements? You bet. Wade didn't want Flutie. He was all about starting the "Phillips-Johnson era to replace the Levy-Kelly era" (I believe those are his exact words, but I could be a little off). If you want a window into Head Coach Wade's World, the team with Johnson is the more accurate. 509045[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Oh goody...just what we need on a day like today...a !@#$ing Flutie thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 The main reason we won most of the games in the Wade era was because of our defense -- not because of either QB. 509052[/snapback] Thankyou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Eric Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Revisionist history at its worst...on a Monday AM that couldnt BE worse. 508813[/snapback] What is worse than revisionist history is 20-20 hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasoninMT Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 When it comes to ranking recent Buffalo GM's, it goes like so: 1. Polian 2. Butler 3. Teflon If you disagree with this ranking, you might be a TD Apologist. 509026[/snapback] I agree with Number 1.... I am probably getting closer to agreeing with #2, and perhaps I'm not being fair to Butler... but I can't forgive what he did to the salary cap... even if it was very much Ralph's team then... I have agreed with most of TD's moves... And the apologist comes in when it comes to having to clean up after Butler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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