I've never understood this anti TD movement

[Orton's Arm]

Below is a list of what I would consider TD's avoidable mistakes:

 

1. The final four candidates for 2001's head coach position. During the Wade Phillips era, the defensive scheme was excellent, the players always came to play, and the defense seemed to be at its best when the stakes were highest. His coaching problems were on offense and special teams. Clearly, what was needed was a coach who could fix the offensive coaching problems while leaving the defense alone, much as Gruden did for Tampa Bay. Instead, the final four candidates for the head coaching job were all from the defensive side of the ball. Gregg Williams' tenure resulted in a decrease in the quality of defensive coaching, while doing nothing to solve the offensive coaching problems.

 

2. TD's treatment of the QB position. At the time it was made, the Bledsoe trade was clearly a mistake. The man in the best position to evaluate Bledsoe--Bill Belichick--wouldn't have traded him to a division rival if he'd thought Bledsoe still had the potential for greatness. Arguably the biggest difference between Brady and Bledsoe is how much more quickly Brady scans the field. TD had to know Bledsoe would read the field even more slowly over time, and this problem would be made worse by Buffalo's problems with the offensive line.

 

Many or most experts felt the 2004 draft had a big three when it came to QBs: Manning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger. On the one hand, TD could have paid the hefty price needed to trade up for one of the big three. On the other, he could have taken a QB with low draft pick so that even a bust wouldn't set the franchise back very much. Instead he took a middle road: the Losman pick was valuable enough that the franchise will get hurt if he fails, but it wasn't high enough to give the same chance to resolve the uncertainty at QB that a top 3 QB would have had.

 

Making the situation worse is the fact that TD laid the foundation for a QB controversy before the season even started. At present, the franchise won't commit to Holcomb because Losman is a first round pick. Nor will it commit to Losman, because Holcomb is playing better. The predictable result of this situation TD has created is the same merry-go-round we had back in the Flutie/Johnson days.

 

3. TD's neglect of the offensive line. The two most effective methods of building an offensive line are to use high draft picks, or to install an unusual system/philosophy which allows you to have success with a different type of offensive lineman than most other teams are looking for. A good example of this second method is teams like Denver and Atlanta looking for smaller, more athletic linemen. NE has had success building a line with late-round picks, apparently because it values intelligence and toughness more than athleticism.

 

TD has failed to build a line through either of the two methods. No TD pick chosen after round 3 has become a permanent starter on the Bills' line. As for using high draft picks, TD has had a total of 15 first-day draft picks in his tenure with the Bills. Of those 15, two have been used on the offensive line. That's 13% of his first-day picks. Yet five out of 22, or 23%, of a team's starters are offensive linemen. Based on TD's actions in the first day of the draft, filling a position on the offensive line is only about half as important as an average starting position. Making the problem worse is the fact that TD allowed Jonas Jennings to leave via free agency. In TD's fifth year, there is only one starter on the o-line obtained via the draft.

 

The Peerless Price move was a good move, an example of TD making another team's irrational love for one of your players work for you instead of against you. He should have done the same thing the next year with Antoine Winfield.

 

While TD has had his share of successes as well as failures, he has failed to set a strong overall direction for the team. In retrospect, A.J. Smith would have been a much better hire.

[plenzmd1]

Below is a list of what I would consider TD's avoidable mistakes:

 

While TD has had his share of successes as well as failures, he has failed to set a strong overall direction for the team. In retrospect, A.J. Smith would have been a much better hire.

496931[/snapback]

Was he even considered, or was the relationship between Wilson and Butler so bad, and with he and Butler being boys, that he was going with Butler no matter what?

[AJ1]

Below is a list of what I would consider TD's avoidable mistakes:

 

1. The final four candidates for 2001's head coach position. During the Wade Phillips era, the defensive scheme was excellent, the players always came to play, and the defense seemed to be at its best when the stakes were highest. His coaching problems were on offense and special teams. Clearly, what was needed was a coach who could fix the offensive coaching problems while leaving the defense alone, much as Gruden did for Tampa Bay. Instead, the final four candidates for the head coaching job were all from the defensive side of the ball. Gregg Williams' tenure resulted in a decrease in the quality of defensive coaching, while doing nothing to solve the offensive coaching problems.

 

2. TD's treatment of the QB position. At the time it was made, the Bledsoe trade was clearly a mistake. The man in the best position to evaluate Bledsoe--Bill Belichick--wouldn't have traded him to a division rival if he'd thought Bledsoe still had the potential for greatness. Arguably the biggest difference between Brady and Bledsoe is how much more quickly Brady scans the field. TD had to know Bledsoe would read the field even more slowly over time, and this problem would be made worse by Buffalo's problems with the offensive line.

 

Many or most experts felt the 2004 draft had a big three when it came to QBs: Manning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger. On the one hand, TD could have paid the hefty price needed to trade up for one of the big three. On the other, he could have taken a QB with low draft pick so that even a bust wouldn't set the franchise back very much. Instead he took a middle road: the Losman pick was valuable enough that the franchise will get hurt if he fails, but it wasn't high enough to give the same chance to resolve the uncertainty at QB that a top 3 QB would have had.

 

Making the situation worse is the fact that TD laid the foundation for a QB controversy before the season even started. At present, the franchise won't commit to Holcomb because Losman is a first round pick. Nor will it commit to Losman, because Holcomb is playing better. The predictable result of this situation TD has created is the same merry-go-round we had back in the Flutie/Johnson days.

 

3. TD's neglect of the offensive line. The two most effective methods of building an offensive line are to use high draft picks, or to install an unusual system/philosophy which allows you to have success with a different type of offensive lineman than most other teams are looking for. A good example of this second method is teams like Denver and Atlanta looking for smaller, more athletic linemen. NE has had success building a line with late-round picks, apparently because it values intelligence and toughness more than athleticism.

 

TD has failed to build a line through either of the two methods. No TD pick chosen after round 3 has become a permanent starter on the Bills' line. As for using high draft picks, TD has had a total of 15 first-day draft picks in his tenure with the Bills. Of those 15, two have been used on the offensive line. That's 13% of his first-day picks. Yet five out of 22, or 23%, of a team's starters are offensive linemen. Based on TD's actions in the first day of the draft, filling a position on the offensive line is only about half as important as an average starting position. Making the problem worse is the fact that TD allowed Jonas Jennings to leave via free agency. In TD's fifth year, there is only one starter on the o-line obtained via the draft.

 

The Peerless Price move was a good move, an example of TD making another team's irrational love for one of your players work for you instead of against you. He should have done the same thing the next year with Antoine Winfield.

 

While TD has had his share of successes as well as failures, he has failed to set a strong overall direction for the team. In retrospect, A.J. Smith would have been a much better hire.

496931[/snapback]

 

You could sum all this up by saying Donahoe is not capable of seeing the big picture.....A fatal flaw for the GM position.

[Orton's Arm]

Was he even considered, or was the relationship between Wilson and Butler so bad, and with he and Butler being boys, that he was going with Butler no matter what?

496938[/snapback]

Based on media reports at the time, TD was the only candidate considered.

[JDG]

I don't think anyone is holding Donahoe to the standard of brining back the four Super Bowls and six straight playoff births of the Glory Years.

 

What we would like to see, however, is a team that is consistently playing meaningful football games in December - ala a Pittsburgh. This is Year 5 of the Donahoe era, and the playoffs still seem like grounds for criticism.

 

In my mind there are two possible criticisms of Donahoe:

1) Donahoe changes his mind too much, pulls the trigger too quickly, and never lets things get built. Prima facie evidence of this is that the Bills last one in Foxboro in 2000 - just five years ago, and only *one* player is still with the Bills from that team. Just *one*! (Eric Moulds) Football is a *team* game, and no wonder a team has not been built with that kind of turnover. Also, Donahoe probably had a heavy hand in firing offensive coordinator Mike Sheppherd after just one talent-starved 3-13 year. By the same token, Donahoe has spent a whopping *eight* 1st and 2nd round draft picks on the QB, RB, and WR positions alone in the space of just five years. A staggering investment.

 

2) Donahoe utterly blew his first building project, centered around Gregg Williams, Drew Bledsoe, Travis Henry, Eric Moulds and Josh Reed. He's now ripped that failure out almost completely, bringing in Mularkey, Losman, McGahee, Evans, and Parrish - while retaining only Moulds (and Josh Reed as a bit-player, special-teamer.) Given the depth to which Buffalo is into the second Donahoe project, it seems that Donahoe can probably not be properly judged until the project reaches its culmination over the rest of this year and next. If it turns out anything like the first project, however, well then Donahoe surely knows that there aren't many third chances in the National Football League.

 

 

As many of you may guess, I actually probably lean towards the second criticism rather than the first, but there is a case to be made for the first. In either case, the criticism has to be accepted as more than legitimate. It takes a lot of luck to win a Super Bowl, but a lot of skill can usually produce at least the playoffs - or at least a season with meaningful December football games. So far, that skill has not yet been conclusively demonstrated in Buffalo.

 

JDG

[Dawgg]

There was no way AJ Smith was going to take the job. He and Butler were extremely close. In fact, upon Butler's dismissal, AJ Smith ripped the organization. It was already a forgone conclusion that AJ Smith would be gone.

 

The cookie-cutter argument here is that Butler left this team in a salary cap mess -- an assessment I think has been largely over-exaggerated. These same people argue that Donahoe has put the Bills in a good cap situation. Where has it gotten the team? Nowhere near the Wade Philips - John Butler era.

 

Based on media reports at the time, TD was the only candidate considered.

496945[/snapback]

[Simon]

Why do people think this team was a complete mess when TD took over?

Well here's one big reason:

 

1 26 26 Erik Flowers DE Arizona State

2 27 58 Travares Tillman DB Georgia Tech

3 27 89 Corey Moore LB Virginia Tech

4 27 121 Avion Black WR Tennessee State

5 27 156 Sammy Morris RB Texas Tech

6 28 194 Leif Larsen DE Texas-El Paso

7 27 233 Drew Haddad WR Buffalo

7 45 251 DaShon Polk LB Arizona

1999

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 23 23 Antoine Winfield DB Ohio State

2 22 53 Peerless Price WR Tennessee

3 25 86 Shawn Bryson RB Tennessee

4 24 119 Keith Newman LB North Carolina

4 27 122 Bobby Collins TE North Alabama

5 23 156 Jay Foreman LB Nebraska

6 15 184 Rashard Cook DB USC

6 25 194 Armon Hatcher DB Oregon State

7 24 230 Sheldon Jackson TE Nebraska

7 42 248 Bryce Fisher DE Air Force

1998

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

2 9 39 Sam Cowart LB Florida State

3 7 68 Robert Hicks OT Mississippi State

5 8 131 Jonathan Linton RB North Carolina

6 7 160 Fred Coleman WR Washington

7 9 198 Victor Allotey OG Indiana

7 49 238 Kamil Loud WR Cal Poly San Luis Obispo

1997

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 23 23 Antowain Smith RB Houston

2 22 52 Marcellus Wiley DE Columbia

4 24 120 Jamie Nails OT Florida A&M

5 23 153 Sean Woodson DB Jackson State

6 22 185 Marcus Spriggs OG Houston

7 25 226 Pat Fitzgerald TE Texas

1996

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 24 24 Eric Moulds WR Mississippi State

2 23 53 Gabe Northern DE LSU

3 26 87 Matt Stevens DB Appalachian State

4 25 120 Sean Moran DE Colorado State

5 24 156 Ray Jackson DB Colorado State

6 29 196 Leon Neal RB Washington

6 35 202 Dusty Ziegler C Notre Dame

7 28 237 Dan Bradenburg DE Indiana State

7 35 244 Jay Riemersma TE Michigan

7 40 249 Eric Smedley DB Indiana

 

Those are Butler/Smith's last 5 drafts; a true horror show. The Bills were devoid of young talent and relying on an aging roster stocked with overpaid players just to keep their heads above water. John Butler may have been a nice guy but I wasn't sorry to se him move on as he'd done a horrible job of stocking the Bill's cupboards.

[plenzmd1]

Well here's one big reason:

 

1  26  26  Erik Flowers  DE  Arizona State

2 27 58 Travares Tillman DB Georgia Tech

3 27 89 Corey Moore LB Virginia Tech

4 27 121 Avion Black WR Tennessee State

5 27 156 Sammy Morris RB Texas Tech

6 28 194 Leif Larsen DE Texas-El Paso

7 27 233 Drew Haddad WR Buffalo

7 45 251 DaShon Polk LB Arizona

1999

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 23 23 Antoine Winfield DB Ohio State

2 22 53 Peerless Price WR Tennessee

3 25 86 Shawn Bryson RB Tennessee

4 24 119 Keith Newman LB North Carolina

4 27 122 Bobby Collins TE North Alabama

5 23 156 Jay Foreman LB Nebraska

6 15 184 Rashard Cook DB USC

6 25 194 Armon Hatcher DB Oregon State

7 24 230 Sheldon Jackson TE Nebraska

7 42 248 Bryce Fisher DE Air Force

1998

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

2 9 39 Sam Cowart LB Florida State

3 7 68 Robert Hicks OT Mississippi State

5 8 131 Jonathan Linton RB North Carolina

6 7 160 Fred Coleman WR Washington

7 9 198 Victor Allotey OG Indiana

7 49 238 Kamil Loud WR Cal Poly San Luis Obispo

1997

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 23 23 Antowain Smith RB Houston

2 22 52 Marcellus Wiley DE Columbia

4 24 120 Jamie Nails OT Florida A&M

5 23 153 Sean Woodson DB Jackson State

6 22 185 Marcus Spriggs OG Houston

7 25 226 Pat Fitzgerald TE Texas

1996

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 24 24 Eric Moulds WR Mississippi State

2 23 53 Gabe Northern DE LSU

3 26 87 Matt Stevens DB Appalachian State

4 25 120 Sean Moran DE Colorado State

5 24 156 Ray Jackson DB Colorado State

6 29 196 Leon Neal RB Washington

6 35 202 Dusty Ziegler C Notre Dame

7 28 237 Dan Bradenburg DE Indiana State

7 35 244 Jay Riemersma TE Michigan

7 40 249 Eric Smedley DB Indiana

 

Those are Butler/Smith's last 5 drafts; a true horror show. The Bills were devoid of young talent and relying on an aging roster stocked with overpaid players just to keep their heads above water. John Butler may have been a nice guy but I wasn't sorry to se him move on as he'd done a horrible job of stocking the Bill's cupboards.

496966[/snapback]

 

Simon, I really do not think those drafts were bad. Granted, the Eric Flowers pick was a stretch, but I see a bunch of guys from those drafts still playing at a fairly high level around the league.

 

All i was saying is we were so used to going to the playoffs, we miss one year, Butler gets in a pissing match with Wilson, Wilson by all accounts wants him to stay but he refuses to negotiate and then Wilson fires him.

 

In comes TD, and all of a sudden Butler has done such a piss poor job we are dead in the water. TD gets to blow the whole thing up, with no where to go but up. I'm just saying the year before, we lose three starters in one drive agaisn't the Bucs, if we win we are in the drivers seat for the playoffs. Mind you pretty much the same team that everyone here claims would ahgve gone to the Superbowl if not for a little forward pass on a kickoff return.

 

But at the end of the next year, when siad GM is fired, we are in slary cap hell. I just never bought the argument

[Kipers Hair]

You know I love Mr T and all - but there is ample reason to suggest that TD is not fit to be a GM in the league any more. I get it that the team was a mess, but that was how long ago? I look at other teams in the same baot...and I see them as playopff contenders now. We are now relegated to the ranks of the AZ Cardinals and Detroit Lions...expected to lose year in and year out. The good teams reload and we are seemingly always rebuilding.

 

And the coaching choices - yes Gregg was a bad move, but Malarky is perhaps worse. On this point, I think TD is most damaged, the Pittsburgh experience has caused him to avoid strong coaching candidates...which ultimately will prevent the Bills from being a good team....

[Orton's Arm]

Those are Butler/Smith's last 5 drafts; a true horror show. The Bills were devoid of young talent and relying on an aging roster stocked with overpaid players just to keep their heads above water. John Butler may have been a nice guy but I wasn't sorry to se him move on as he'd done a horrible job of stocking the Bill's cupboards.

496966[/snapback]

What stands out about those drafts is that only one first-day pick was used on the o-line: Robert Hicks. Not only were Butler and TD alike in their neglect of the o-line, but their successes seem similar too.

 

TD's main drafting successes:

- Willis McGahee

- Nate Clements

- Terrence McGee

- Lee Evans (based on his rookie year only)

- Aaron Schoebel

 

Butler's main drafting successes in his last five years here:

- Antoine Winfield

- Peerless Price (based on the Atlanta trade)

- Sam Cowart

- Eric Moulds

- Jay Riemersma

 

Both GMs had some success at finding good non-QB offensive skill position players, with an occassional good player thrown in on defense. So far, the uncertainty at the QB position is still unsolved, as are the problems with the offensive line.

[Simon]

Simon, I really do not think those drafts were bad......I see a bunch of guys from those drafts still playing at a fairly high level around the league.

 

But at the end of the next year, when siad GM is fired, we are in slary cap hell. I just never bought the argument

496981[/snapback]

Those drafts are atrocious. In 5 years he managed to stock the Bills with a grand total of 2 good young players(Moulds, Winfield). Even if you add the injury-prone Cowart that's still only 3 good players. In 5 years. The rest of those picks are just garbage. Look at his 2nd/3rd rounders. Gabe Northern, Matt Stevens, Marcellus Wiley, Robert Hicks, Peerless Price, Shawn Bryson, Travares Tillman and Corey Moore. That's just brutal. Don't even look at his Day2 picks, they're just too horrifying.

In the salary cap era, your draft is the cornerstone of your team. W/o a good draft you'll never have good young talent at a reasonable salary and you'll drown yourself trying to live off expensive FA's or overpaid veterans (Reed, Smith, Thomas, SRogers, Holocek, Fina, Hansen, RBrown, HJones, Panos, Ostroski, etc.)

This team was going nowhere but backwards with that sort of foundation of a roster. Donahoe had to decide whether to bleed the flotsam out slowly and try to remain competitive while he was doing it, or whether to get it over with in one fell swoop and start building a team with a foundation of good young talent. He chose the latter and I applauded him for it at the time and still do.

Instead of looking at a team in serious trouble like he was doing when he got here, he's now looking at a team with a solid nucleus of young talent that only needs a few tweaks to be a playoff contender, and he has the cap space to make those changes. This team is in waaaaayyyyyy better shape than it was when he got here and wishing for the return of John Butler is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

[Bill from NYC]

And the coaching choices - yes Gregg was a bad move, but Malarky is perhaps worse. 

496996[/snapback]

 

I just don't see why you feel this way. MM was 9-7 as a rookie.

In 05, his second year, his team lost a player who might have been (let's hope that he heals) a Hall of Fame Linebacker to injury. His boss tanked the draft, dumped his starting qb, and replaced him with a rookie who doesn't (at least not yet) seem to have a clue. His run stuffing DT left as a ufa. The left OG that his boss brought in is am utter disgrace.

 

Despite the above, MM has his team at 3-5 and as of now, in contention.

Imo, MM is just not the person who is bringing our beloved Bills down.

Keep watching. I am sure that MM is going to be a fine coach in this football league.

 

Jmo.

[Bill from NYC]

This team is in waaaaayyyyyy better shape than it was when he got here and wishing for the return of John Butler is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

497001[/snapback]

 

No argument here. Overall, TD is pretty good at cap management. He has however been not so stellar on draft day.

As a matter of fact, I would rate his overall draft record (with the Bills) as sub-par.

How about you?

[Orton's Arm]

Instead of looking at a team in serious trouble like he was doing when he got here, he's now looking at a team with a solid nucleus of young talent that only needs a few tweaks to be a playoff contender, and he has the cap space to make those changes.

497001[/snapback]

While I largely agree with your assessment of Butler, I'm not as optimistic about TD's performance as you are. Other than Aaron Schoebel--a player who is a little above average for a starter--there isn't a solid nucleus of young talent on the defensive line. Nor is there much of a foundation at linebacker, except for another decent player in Angelo Crowell. The CB and FS positions are somewhat promising, even if Clements leaves in free agency. But there is nothing in the pipeline at SS.

 

The young talent on the offensive line consists of Duke Preston and Mike Williams--nothing more. Mike Williams is this year's Jonas Jennings--overpaid for the amount of time he's actually on the field. At QB, Losman is largely an unknown, and ultimately may turn out to be a bust. The same is true of this year's picks at WR and TE. Willis McGahee is an excellent player, and I still have high hopes for Evans. Euhus may turn out to be a decent player. But ultimately TD's drafts have left too many holes in the roster, and these holes are being filled with declining players like Lawyer Milloy, Sam Adams, London Fletcher, Troy Vincent, Trey Teague, or Chris Villarreal. Further, stopgap players like Gandy and Anderson have been used to make up for a lack of good o-line picks.

[DeeRay]

wishing for the return of John Butler is absolutely mind-boggling to me

 

me too. only Jesus Christ and Tedy Brushi resurrected.

[Rico]

Instead of looking at a team in serious trouble like he was doing when he got here, he's now looking at a team with a solid nucleus of young talent that only needs a few tweaks to be a playoff contender, and he has the cap space to make those changes.

497001[/snapback]

I also thought we were a few tweaks away before this season started... now, I'm not sure. Too many key players got old in a hurry, and too many younger players have yet to step up.

 

I remember the thread from last year asking what other teams' roster in the NFL would you trade the Bills roster for straight up. Back then, I could only come up with a handful. But now, unless I see some significant upward changes the 2nd half, I'd trade this roster for at least 10-12 other teams' roster, maybe more.

[TC in St. Louis]

I like Tom Donahoe. It's been rough being a fan the past few years, but at least we had some feeling of optimism at the end of last year.

 

He took some calculated risks at the end of the year, letting Jennings and Williams go. I agreed with him there, I don't think Jennings is worth that kind of dough, although Williams' deal seemed affordable. Obviously, he felt that it was time for Edwards and his draft choices to fill Williams' spot. I think that might have worked, had Spikes not been injured.

 

Mike Williams' health has had a major effect on the line. Had MW played even close to his potential, nobody would question TD's selecting him so early in the draft.

 

McGee has been a great player, considering where he was chosen. McGahee was also a major steal. Jury is still out on Losman. Maybe he will pan out. Evans is suffering the sophomore slump, and nobody seems to be able to get him the ball.

 

Fletcher was a great pickup at LB. Posey has never impressed me. I think we would've been better off keeping Jay Foreman.

 

A position that continues to frustrate me is TE....when will we ever get us a tight end who can contribute to this offense?

 

Overall, I'm satisfied with Tom Donahoe's work with the team. He's a lot smarter than I when it comes to football.

 

Injuries are part of the game, to be sure. They are not an excuse. However, losing Takeo Spikes for the year probably added 25 yards per game to the defensive statistics. Much like having JP as QB subtracted 50 ypg from the offense. Put those together and you've got problems.

[JDG]

Simon,

 

I agree that the 2000 draft was an unmitigated disaster, but I think that you are being just a little too hard on Butler. In particular, I think that the 1999 and 1996 drafts were good, and 1997 was probably fine as well. To make my point, lets consider 1999:

 

1999

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 23 23 Antoine Winfield - Near Pro Bowl performer

2 22 53 Peerless Price - One Near Pro Bowl season, solid NFL player for several other seasons

3 25 86 Shawn Bryson RB - Solid NFL Role Player

4 24 119 Keith Newman LB - Solid NFL Player

4 27 122 Bobby Collins TE - Marginal NFL Player

5 23 156 Jay Foreman LB - Solid NFL Player

6 15 184 Rashard Cook DB - Bust

6 25 194 Armon Hatcher DB - Bust

7 24 230 Sheldon Jackson TE - Marginal NFL Player

7 42 248 Bryce Fisher DE - Solid NFL Player

 

I tried to look up the 1998-1999-2000 drafts of some NFL teams that went on to success in the early-2000's. Here's the Packers for example:

 

2000 1 1 14 14 Bubba Franks TE Miami (FL)

2 2 13 44 Chad Clifton T Tennessee

3 3 12 74 Steve Warren DT Nebraska

4 4 4 98 Na'il Diggs LB Ohio State

5 4 20 114 Anthony Lucas WR Arkansas

6 4 32 126 Gary Berry DB Ohio State

7 5 20 149 Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila LB San Diego State

8 5 22 151 Joey Jamison WR Texas Southern

9 7 18 224 Mark Tauscher G Wisconsin

10 7 23 229 Ron Moore DT NW Oklahoma State

11 7 36 242 Charles Lee WR Central Florida

12 7 43 249 Eugene McCaslin LB Florida

13 7 46 252 Rondell Mealey RB Louisiana State

1999 1 1 25 25 Antwan Edwards DB Clemson

2 2 16 47 Fred Vinson DB Vanderbilt

3 3 26 87 Mike McKenzie DB Memphis

4 3 33 94 Cletidus Hunt DT Kentucky State

5 4 36 131 Aaron Brooks QB Virginia

6 4 38 133 Josh Bidwell P Oregon

7 5 26 159 DeMond Parker RB Oklahoma

8 5 30 163 Craig Heimburger C Missouri

9 6 27 196 Dee Miller WR Ohio State

10 6 34 203 Scott Curry G Montana

11 7 6 212 Chris Akins DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff

12 7 7 213 Donald Driver WR Alcorn State

1998 1 1 19 19 Vonnie Holliday DT North Carolina

2 3 29 90 Jonathan Brown DE Tennessee

3 4 29 121 Roosevelt Blackmon DB Morris Brown

4 5 27 150 Corey Bradford WR Jackson State

5 6 3 156 Scott McGarrahan DB New Mexico

6 6 34 187 Matt Hasselbeck QB Boston College

7 7 29 218 Edwin Watson RB Purdue

 

The record looks fairly comparable to me.

 

Here's New Bruschi (We're not worthy!), which obviously hit the mother-of-all-home-runs with Tom Brady, but the rest of their drafts look awful pedestrian:

 

2000 1 2 15 46 Adrian Klemm T Hawaii

2 3 14 76 J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State

3 4 33 127 Greg Robinson-Randall T Michigan State

4 5 12 141 Dave Stachelski TE Boise State

5 5 32 161 Jeff Marriott DT Missouri

6 6 21 187 Antwan Harris DB Virginia

7 6 33 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan

8 6 35 201 David Nugent DT Purdue

9 7 20 226 Casey Tisdale LB New Mexico

10 7 33 239 Patrick Pass RB Georgia

1999 1 1 17 17 Damien Woody C Boston College

2 1 28 28 Andy Katzenmoyer LB Ohio State

3 2 15 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State

4 3 30 91 Tony George DB Florida

5 5 21 154 Derrick Fletcher T Baylor

6 6 11 180 Marcus Washington DB Colorado

7 7 21 227 Michael Bishop QB Kansas State

8 7 35 241 Sean Morey WR Brown

1998 1 1 18 18 Robert Edwards RB Georgia

2 1 22 22 Tebucky Jones DB Syracuse

3 2 22 52 Tony Simmons WR Wisconsin

4 2 24 54 Rod Rutledge TE Alabama

5 3 20 81 Chris Floyd RB Michigan

6 3 22 83 Greg Spires DE Florida State

7 4 23 115 Leonta Rheams DT Houston

8 5 22 145 Ron Merkerson LB Colorado

9 6 23 176 Harold Shaw RB Southern Mississippi

10 7 22 211 Jason Andersen C Brigham Young

 

And if the Patriots were drafting geniuses, would they really have taken Dave Stachelski ahead of Tom Brady????

 

JDG

[Dr. K]

1999

Round Pick Overall Name Position School

1 23 23 Antoine Winfield - Near Pro Bowl performer

2 22 53 Peerless Price - One Near Pro Bowl season, solid NFL player for several other seasons

JDG

497116[/snapback]

 

Hey, JDG--I think you slipped up here. Peerless Price was not drafted in 1999 by Butler. He was drafted by Donohoe a couple of years later.

 

Do you mean Pierson Priealou? (sp?)

[GG]

Hey, JDG--I think you slipped up here.  Peerless Price was not drafted in 1999 by Butler.  He was drafted by Donohoe a couple of years later.

 

Do you mean Pierson Priealou? (sp?)

497120[/snapback]

 

Actually he was drafted by Butler in '99.

 

Prioleau was a FA signing from SF.

[Orton's Arm]

Hey, JDG--I think you slipped up here.  Peerless Price was not drafted in 1999 by Butler.  He was drafted by Donohoe a couple of years later.

 

Do you mean Pierson Priealou? (sp?)

497120[/snapback]

JDG is correct. Peerless Price was drafted by Butler. I distinctly remember Rob Johnson completing a key pass to him in that playoff game against Tennessee.

[Dr. K]

Actually he was drafted by Butler in '99.

 

Prioleau was a FA signing from SF.

497125[/snapback]

 

 

I stand corrected.

[Tortured Soul]

1) Donahoe changes his mind too much, pulls the trigger too quickly, and never lets things get built.  Prima facie evidence of this is that the Bills last one in Foxboro in 2000 - just five years ago, and only *one* player is still with the Bills from that team.  Just *one*!  (Eric Moulds)  Football is a *team* game, and no wonder a team has not been built with that kind of turnover. 

496947[/snapback]

Don't be too high on that game. Remember, it was a win over Bledsoe.

I think you have to add to the list of Butler's good moves Bryce Fisher, who has 7 sacks in eight games. I don't even remember why Donahoe let him walk after three sacks in spot duty in 01, just in time for his binge on 2nd round DE's.

[JDG]

Don't be too high on that game.  Remember, it was a win over Bledsoe.

I think you have to add to the list of Butler's good moves Bryce Fisher, who has 7 sacks in eight games.  I don't even remember why Donahoe let him walk after three sacks in spot duty in 01, just in time for his binge on 2nd round DE's.

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The point being not that it was a great win five years ago, but that it seems pretty extraordinary to me for an NFL team to turn over basically its whole roster in five years.

 

I definitely wish we still had Bryce Fisher, but in fairness to Donahoe, I think that St. Louis let him walk too before he finally busted out....

 

JDG

[plenzmd1]

Simon,

 

I agree that the 2000 draft was an unmitigated disaster, but I think that you are being just a little too hard on Butler.  In particular, I think that the 1999 and 1996 drafts were good, and 1997 was probably fine as well.  To make my point, lets consider 1999:

 

JDG

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Nice post JDG(of course it agrees with me)so its gotta be right

 

My only point was we take for granted that TD had to start from scratch in salary cap hell, and to me the team he inherited was better than any team we have seen under whiteys direction.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again.I'll take a little salary cap hell if he can just deliver the Bills back to the playoffs. Under the cap is great, but only if your winning while under the cap.

[1959BillsFan]

Just look at the club, extremely mediocre. That is how I would classify TD's "leadership" and management performance as a GM and President, extremely mediocre.

 

He definitely not that same level as Pioli or

 

Rich McKay

Ozzie Newsome

Andy Reid

 

TD is neither the likes of Matt Millan

[Orton's Arm]

Nice post JDG(of course it agrees with me)so its gotta be right

 

My only point was we take for granted that TD had to start from scratch in salary cap hell, and to me the team he inherited was better than any team we have seen under whiteys direction.

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It depends on how you look at it. Yes, the 2000 Bills were a special teams tackle away from a playoff win against a team that ultimately lost the Super Bowl. But like the waning years of the Kelly era, the success of the 2000 season was largely based on aging players.

 

One of the main reasons for Butler's success was continuity. Wade Philips was the defensive coordinator or head coach for Butler's entire tenure, thus ensuring that players could be selected for one particular defensive system. John Fina spent basically his whole career with the Bills. Because of continuity and good defensive coaching--two things Donahoe's teams have lacked--Butler's teams were greater than the sum of their parts.

 

But continuity can only get you so far when your players are over the hill. There wasn't a strong group of younger guys to step in and take the place of those who were retiring. There was little or no young talent on the offensive line, there was nothing as far as the starting QB, only a stopgap RB, no young talent at TE, and the defense was getting old. Aging players like John Fina had been paid far more than they were worth. It was a bad situation no matter how you slice it.

 

Donahoe did the right thing by getting rid of anyone who was old and expensive. But he made his own situation worse than it needed to be by bringing in a defensive head coach. The switch to the new scheme helped squeeze out some of the younger defensive players Butler had found; players who went on to have success elsewhere. Yes, the cleanup had to be done, and yes, it had to be painful. But had Donahoe been less heavy-handed, there would be more than one Butler player on the roster today. And the Bills would be a stronger team.

[bill in Livonia]

You seem to have a selective memory. The team when tom took over was better than the team is at present. Admittedly we had a serious salry cap problem

but Tom has not made many good decisions since he took over. He has demenstrated that he can run a team on the cheap. He has not demenstrated an ability for picking personell either coaching or players. He has demenstrated a propensity for hiring anyone with a past Pittsburgh connection. He had a media reputation as a real pro football General Manager. The past five years have have shown that that "rep" was not accurate. He has spun and BS'ed us for four of the last five years untill we no longer have faith in his veracity. I for one am sick of football on the cheap. I would hate to see another coaching change but I would welcome a General Manager change. I suppose nobody would want a GM job if he had to have the former guys personell. So, that is our conundrum. Donohoe could change his direction and draft better prospects. He could be more active and generous in the free agent market. Do you see that happening?.....................................Hummn me either,

Bill

GO BILLS!!

CRUSH KANSAS CITY!!

[Orton's Arm]

You seem to have a selective memory. The team when tom took over was better than the team is at present.

Not sure who this is addressed to, but I agree the Bills in 2000 achieved more than any of TD's teams have. But that team had basically peaked, and was on the decline.

He has not demenstrated an ability for picking personell either coaching or players.

I disagree. The Bills played with a lot of heart this past week in NE; the sign of a good head coach. The position coaches Mularkey has chosen are excellent. Jim McNally is the very offensive line coach many or most posters on this board had been dreaming of, and is hands-down better than any offensive line coach in recent Bills history. The receivers coach is the same guy who coached Anquan Boldin to his 1000 yard rookie season. The QB coach is Sam Wyche--a former head coach. While the jury is still out on Tom Clements, clearly Mularkey's offensive position coaches are part of the solution to the Bills' problems. The same could be said about Mularkey himself.

He has demenstrated a propensity for hiring anyone with a past Pittsburgh connection.

Look at TD's Pittsburgh hires: Tom Modrack, Dick LeBeau, Mike Mularkey. Compare them to his non-Pittsburgh hires: Gregg Williams, Jerry Gray, Kevin Gilbride, Mike Shepherd. TD would have done well to have hired only Pittsburgh people.

 

I would hate to see another coaching change but I would welcome a General Manager change.

You and me both, though I would welcome a new defensive coordinator.

[JDG]

A couple quick replies to various posters:

 

1) Sorry to disagree with plenzmd1 after the nice compliment, but given the choice, I would pick 5-straight 10-6 playoff birth years, over one 14-2 year with a Super Bowl win and two 10-6 years, and two 4-12 years. Especially given the situation of our franchise, the former would probably keep the Bills in Buffalo - but definitely am not sure it would survive a prolonged a downturn at the wrong moment.

 

2) To Bill in Livonia - the Bills have *not* been run on the cheap. Cheap times don't sign a tagged Takeo Spikes away, cheap teams don't trade for Bledsoe and then jettison him after just two years. There are many valid criticisms of Donahoe (see my post above), but running the team on the cheap is not one of them.

 

3) To Holcomb's Arm - In my tally, Gilbride counts as a "Donahoe Pittsburgh Hire".... Gilbride was in Pittsburgh during Donahoe's tenure, and I honestly don't think that Gregg Williams fired his hand-picked offensive coordinator (remember all the Lists he had during the job interview?) after one talent-deprived 3-13 season. Given the unrealistic expectations Donahoe set for that team, however, I can easily imagine Donahoe having done so.

 

JDG

[Simon]

In particular, I think that the 1999 and 1996 drafts were good, and 1997 was probably fine as well. To make my point, lets consider 1999:

I'd agree that '99 was the best of the 5 years, but beig the best of a bad bunch does not qualify it as good. Winfield was the right pick in the first round but after that it was poor. Wasting a 2ndrounder on Peerless who had one average year and has been horrible in every other doesn not qualify as good. His 3rdrounder has bounced around and is hanging on as a back-up. Over the next 6 picks Newman is the only player even worth mentioning. And while I liked his last pick, he still wasn't even eligible for another couple seasons.

That's one real good player with 10 picks to play with, that coming in the first round and then no picks worth their value until taking an inelligible guy with a lastround supplemental pick. And this was his best draft of a 5 year stretch! An impossible way to succesfully run an NFL team in the salary cap era.

As for your assertation that the Packers' draft record looks "fairly comparable", I'm sorry John but that's utterly insane. You only have to go 2/3rd's of the way into the first GreenBay draft you listed to find more good NFL players than Butler's Bills drafted in 5 whole years.

 

 

I'll get to various other folks' solid replies(hopefully) when mine eyes aren't closing of their own accord.

[Orton's Arm]

3) To Holcomb's Arm - In my tally, Gilbride counts as a "Donahoe Pittsburgh Hire"....  Gilbride was in Pittsburgh during Donahoe's tenure, and I honestly don't think that Gregg Williams fired his hand-picked offensive coordinator (remember all the Lists he had during the job interview?) after one talent-deprived 3-13 season.  Given the unrealistic expectations Donahoe set for that team, however, I can easily imagine Donahoe having done so.

 

JDG

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You may be right, though I would find it odd that TD would force a coordinator--and especially a coordinator like THAT--onto a head coach. Maybe the Mike Shepherd firing was encouraged or forced by TD. However, I think that Gilbride and Gregg Williams were with the Houston/Tennessee franchise at the same time. If I had to guess, I'd say the resulting familiarity between Williams and Gilbride was the main factor in the latter's hiring.

[ndirish1978]

"I know full well that we haven't been to the playoffs since he arrived"

 

Screw the rest, this is all that matters. Bold moves havent done jack for us so far have they. Bengals turned it around in 3 years. No excuse.

[Fan in Chicago]

Bengals turned it around in 3 years. No excuse.

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Counting from which year ? While I am slowly beginning to agree that TD may have made some critical mistakes, giving the Bengals as an example is not appropriate.

[plenzmd1]

JDG

497445[/snapback]

 

Sorry to disagree with plenzmd1.

This not allowed

 

2) To Bill in Livonia - the Bills have *not* been run on the cheap.   Cheap times don't sign a tagged Takeo Spikes away, cheap teams don't trade for Bledsoe and then jettison him after just two years.   There are many valid criticisms of Donahoe (see my post above), but running the team on the cheap is not one of them. 

 

I agree with this. I am not a cap guru, but every body keeps insisting we are in good shape relative to the cap. I just do not see it. We have a 3-5 team, with an aging D, and I am still looking for how we have any cap space next year. Just because we haven't had to cut people for being over the cap, doesn't mean we are managing the cap well. Seemed like most teams manage the cap better now, as very few June 1 cuts. Like I said earlier, being under the cap(i think we are two million now)but losing , so what? The friggen Cardinals mangage the cap great, who cares?

 

 

 

However, I will say this. I have siad in earlier posts I do not mind mistakes being made, just have the guts to admit them. The move of big Mike and benching of Fat Bennie(if it happens) is at least a start in that process. I will give props to TD and MM for having the guts to do that.