IBTG81 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Belinda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Just signed on to smear this O-line. I've been saying it for years and it rings true this year again. This Oline is the biggest weakness. Miami's Oline kept them in the game because it gave the QB time and opened holes for the running game. Until this GM gets it through his head that you start with the OL and work from there, they'll never win. Second-rate FA linemen and a complete lack of drafting aptitude when it comes to the OL makes this team useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBTG81 Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 Just signed on to smear this O-line. I've been saying it for years and it rings true this year again. This Oline is the biggest weakness. Miami's Oline kept them in the game because it gave the QB time and opened holes for the running game. Until this GM gets it through his head that you start with the OL and work from there, they'll never win. Second-rate FA linemen and a complete lack of drafting aptitude when it comes to the OL makes this team useless. 470611[/snapback] I didn't get to watch the game. Anyone play well? Who played like crap? Fez and Bill...Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 The o-line is horrid - Jerman doesn't deserve to be in the League. Can't believe he was our backup plan at RT. That being said, Miami's o-line doesn't have any more talent. I think I hate to say it but, McNally is overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolly Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Jerman is awful. Preston looked ok filling in. Gandy is undersized and gets blown up on outside rushes. Our O-line still sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Badly. At the end of games, good offensive lines are supposed to get those tough yards and move the chains. We do not have a line yet that can do that. They also looked pretty bad when Miami turned it on in the second half. We were pretty hopeless trying to block Taylor or when they were blitzing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Three straight 2nd half drives were ended by sacks on 3rd down. That should tell you how well the Bills OL is playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 OLine = RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 The o-line is horrid - Jerman doesn't deserve to be in the League. Can't believe he was our backup plan at RT. That being said, Miami's o-line doesn't have any more talent. I think I hate to say it but, McNally is overrated. 470634[/snapback] McNally is not overrated. He's just not a miracle worker, as some expected him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Just signed on to smear this O-line. I've been saying it for years and it rings true this year again. This Oline is the biggest weakness. Miami's Oline kept them in the game because it gave the QB time and opened holes for the running game. Until this GM gets it through his head that you start with the OL and work from there, they'll never win. Second-rate FA linemen and a complete lack of drafting aptitude when it comes to the OL makes this team useless. 470611[/snapback] Some of us have been saying that for years now and we get blasted or called out because they think we have an agenda. Changing QB's has done nothing to improve and the line coach can only do so much with the talent he's given. Offensive ineptitude can't be pinned on just one player because it never is all his fault. We really need another DT who can totally stop the run or become a pass rushing force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Some of us have been saying that for years now and we get blasted or called out because they think we have an agenda. Changing QB's has done nothing to improve and the line coach can only do so much with the talent he's given. Offensive ineptitude can't be pinned on just one player because it never is all his fault. We really need another DT who can totally stop the run or become a pass rushing force. 470925[/snapback] vince wilfork was that player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2004 Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 vince wilfork was that player 471059[/snapback] Obie Wan you're still on the Vince Wilfork bandwagon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Some of us have been saying that for years now and we get blasted or called out because they think we have an agenda. Changing QB's has done nothing to improve and the line coach can only do so much with the talent he's given. Offensive ineptitude can't be pinned on just one player because it never is all his fault. We really need another DT who can totally stop the run or become a pass rushing force. 470925[/snapback] I generally don't think the fans have been happy with the OL plsy or the individuals players since the days of yore when Kent Hull was leading the crew. Folks have generally seemed to recognize that Butler was flailing around badly with his picks in the post SB days, and recognized that he was forced to overpay Ruben more than the market would give him when he also tried to sign Dusty without any guaranteed shot at being a center (which he proved to be when he was center the next year on a Giants SB squad) so I don't remember snyone putting up much of a fit with OL smears going way back. Most seemed o feel that Coach Dickerson was over-reaching when he used to rag on Glenn Parker mercilessly and rose to defend Parker, but this was not because folks thought Parker was that good, but because the Coach was so outlandish and football silly in his assessment of Parjker (an assessment the facts proved were simply foolish on the Coach's part as Parker also was run out of town to NYG where he went to the SB as part of a JMac coached OL and the Coach's designeee Corey Louchiey simply turned out to stink when he got a shot. Even since this putrid time, i think there has been general agreement on TSW and even among the media like Larry Felser that one of the biggest disasters of the GW reign of error was having his inexperienced buddy Vinky and then |upgrading" to the equally inexperienced Ruel as being OL position coach. Things are much better now with JMac at least being an adult in charge, but even those of us who feel this is true think it is much better not because our current OL is any good, but because the Butler inherited version was so bad and some poor development outcomes under TD have occured that this group is troubled. Overall, i think when one assesses out OL it is legit to assess the end of the Butler era as not only having players perform badly, but there seemed to be little intelligent design going opn. The TD era is interesting as it has been a mixed bag where they actually have tried to invest fairly heavily in OL improvement (I think he has picked an OL player in each draft he had here and often spent a first day pick on them). In addition, this team has not been reluctant to go to the street looking for OL players as the draftees have failed for a range of reasons which vary in who deserves the prime blame from poor assessment of quality by the braintrust (Pacillo), bad breaks with injury (Smith, Sobieski and a well regarded player whose name I forget who was drafted as one of the best but never recovered from injury) and players simply not performing up to their level of talent (Williams). Still, under TD while the OL has been hurt by the dumb O leadership he hired (Sheppard, Killdrive, and D-guru DW) there are a few cases where players actually have stepped up nicely only to be to injury prone to be worthwhile (Jennings, Tucker, Smith). It has been horrid, but not completely bad and I don;t remember anyone being more positive than that generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 The TD era is interesting as it has been a mixed bag where they actually have tried to invest fairly heavily in OL improvement (I think he has picked an OL player in each draft he had here and often spent a first day pick on them). 471418[/snapback] fairly heavily? i could not disagree more........ he has not picked OL players "often on the first day"...... jennings and big mike -- that's it! those are the only two first day OL picked by TD since he got here 5 years ago.......and that is not the type of investment that will yield a quality return........TD is too busy picking the glamour positions and ignores the OL.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I didn't get to watch the game. Anyone play well? Who played like crap? Fez and Bill...Opinions? 470631[/snapback] Everyone else pretty much covered the topic, so I don't have much else to say on that, aside from pointing out that Holcomb was sacked three times and Bledsoe wasn't sacked at all against Philly (or Washington earlier in the year). Bledsoe hardly seems like a "sack magnet," any more than RJ, TC, or AVP were. It's our OL! CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoveldog Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 fairly heavily? i could not disagree more........ he has not picked OL players "often on the first day"...... jennings and big mike -- that's it! those are the only two first day OL picked by TD since he got here 5 years ago.......and that is not the type of investment that will yield a quality return........TD is too busy picking the glamour positions and ignores the OL.... 471460[/snapback] Hellooooooooo... name one team that has drafted more than 2 OL players on the first day in the last 5 years. Then compare them to our OL. You Can't! Why, because it doesn't happen. OL, more than any other position in the draft is a crap shoot. Very few OL go in the top rounds. Glamour positions ALWAYS go first in the draft because they are in higher demand. OL (with the exception of a few very highly celebrated - notice I said celebrated and not rated - players... i.e. Gallery, MW, Pace, etc...) There are MORE pro-bowl OL chosen in later rounds than any other position in football. It's not about what round you pick a guy. It's about proper evaluation of talent. THAT my friends is where we have fallen short in the draft the last 5 years. But, if you think by picking an OL higher in the draft it is going to guarantee greater success, you are declaring your football ignorance to the world. Shovel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBud Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Holcolm could hardly get into his drop without getting pressure. MW and CV better heal up otherwise . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I didn't get to watch the game. Anyone play well? Who played like crap? Fez and Bill...Opinions? 470631[/snapback] Gandy wiffed bad on Taylor on one play that ende up a sack, Taylor was essentially unblocked even though a blocker was assigned to him. On another sack, German and either the TE on that side (Campbell?) or a back other than Willis picked up the end and a blitzer but a second blitzer had to be picked up by Willis and he blew it. His man nailed Kelly H. from behind. The fins started bringing lots of heat and playing close to the line in the second half and once they did that, the offense was toast because the line just could not deal with it. It is the same type of defense which has stymied this offense all year. Certainly, it didn't help to have Villarial and Williams in the infirmary again. Think of it, we had only one guy on the line Sunday who started for us last year. Essentially, we had a Bears cast off, a Jags cast off, Teague, a rookie and a nobody manning the fort on Sunday. At that, we still managed to pull off a win with, admittedly, plenty of help from the fins. Hard to hold on to the ball with flippers I guess. I don't think the line can be really graded until Williams and Villarial are back, in the mean time, we need to find an offensive system that doesn't depend on blocking to succeed. Anybody know of one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Hellooooooooo... name one team that has drafted more than 2 OL players on the first day in the last 5 years. Then compare them to our OL. You Can't! Why, because it doesn't happen. OL, more than any other position in the draft is a crap shoot. Very few OL go in the top rounds. Glamour positions ALWAYS go first in the draft because they are in higher demand. OL (with the exception of a few very highly celebrated - notice I said celebrated and not rated - players... i.e. Gallery, MW, Pace, etc...) There are MORE pro-bowl OL chosen in later rounds than any other position in football. It's not about what round you pick a guy. It's about proper evaluation of talent. THAT my friends is where we have fallen short in the draft the last 5 years. But, if you think by picking an OL higher in the draft it is going to guarantee greater success, you are declaring your football ignorance to the world. Shovel 471482[/snapback] I'm not going to repeat the effort but at one point I listed all the offensive lineman the Bills have selected in the first and second rounds over the years and about 95% of them ended up perennial starters and probowlers. I would actually argue that the opposite is true, an offensive lineman so good that he merits consideration in the upper rounds over skill position players is a better bet than glamorous WR's and the like. Believe me, if you listed all the receivers we have taken in the first two rounds versus the offensive lineman, you will find a lot more duds at wideout. I'm guessing on the receivers based on what I recall from watching our drafts over he years but I posted a list here a while ago on the lineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Think of it, we had only one guy on the line Sunday who started for us last year.Essentially, we had a Bears cast off, a Jags cast off, Teague, a rookie and a nobody manning the fort on Sunday. At that, we still managed to pull off a win with, admittedly, plenty of help from the fins. Hard to hold on to the ball with flippers I guess. 471536[/snapback] What pisses me off, though, is that the 'Phins' o-line essentially is in the same shape as ours, and yet they managed to pick up our constant blitzing and give Ferotte time to throw (why Gray insisted on sticking with the blitz, which obviously wasn't working and allowed the Dolphins to score quickly, is another frustrating organizational mystery). Yet, our line couldn't stop a 4-man rush, let alone any kind of stunt or blitz in the second half yesterday. And, I'm tired of the excuses. Every team suffers injuries at o-line. Look what the Packers' second and third-string linemen did to the Saints' front seven yesterday - the same front seven that gave our first-stringers fits. That's the best Jerman could play against the team that cut him? CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW BAD MACFARLAND MUST BE!? I'm going to have to point the finger at coaching this time - there is no reason why the protection continually fails, and technique remains so sloppy. We can't play out of two tight end sets like other teams?? We can't coordinate between our backs and linemen to pick up blitzers? Our tackles can't shuffle sideways quickly enough to stop ANY defensive linemen on ANY teams? Why do other teams do this stuff with such ease? It can't just be differences in talent. I refuse to believe that every other team's rookie 6th-round pick is better than our heralded free agent veterans. Someone or some folks aren't doing their jobs, and if I had to guess, I'm going to point to, in this order: Tom Clements, Jim McNally, whoever the hell our RB coach is, and Donahoe. I'm tired of seeing such a mess out there - get it together, get everyone on the same page, or get out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 McNally is not overrated. He's just not a miracle worker, as some expected him to be. 470658[/snapback] Well then apparently Alex Gibbs IS a miracle worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 The fins started bringing lots of heat and playing close to the line in the second half and once they did that, the offense was toast because the line just could not deal with it. It is the same type of defense which has stymied this offense all year. 471536[/snapback] The quote proves the point.....It is not Losman or Holocomb....It is that stupid line.....Belichek was right to criticize our OL (in the book about the Pats a few years ago) as a bunch of horse sh-- (or something to that effect)... Unless we fix our line, we are not going anywhere...Look at Carolina,...that is exactly what they did....They picked up castoff QBs and RBs from other teams built their own WRs....but built a SOLID OL.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Everyone is making far too much sense here. TD has too make the OL a priority to fix or we are never going to get better than we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 How big is Alaska? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Hellooooooooo... name one team that has drafted more than 2 OL players on the first day in the last 5 years. 471482[/snapback] how about CAR, CHI, DAL, HOU, JAX, MIA, NE, NO, OAK, PIT, SD, SF, and SEA?????? ALL have drafted 3 or more first day OL in the past 5 years........jeez, that's almost half the league!!! But, if you think by picking an OL higher in the draft it is going to guarantee greater success, you are declaring your football ignorance to the world. well i guess all those teams are fools for drafting OL so high when they can find similar talent later in the draft! especially those silly NE Patriots!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch19079 Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 consitering we are starting a rookie and a backup in place of the 2 best O-Lineman we have, they havent been to bad. but at the same time, it is below average. when are our starters comming back?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 consitering we are starting a rookie and a backup in place of the 2 best O-Lineman we have, they havent been to bad. but at the same time, it is below average. when are our starters comming back?? 471832[/snapback] The Patriots are also starting 2 rookies due to injuries and they beat the Falcons in Atlanta. The bills coaches are making things way too complicated. Football is a simple game- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I'm not going to repeat the effort but at one point I listed all the offensive lineman the Bills have selected in the first and second rounds over the years and about 95% of them ended up perennial starters and probowlers. I would actually argue that the opposite is true, an offensive lineman so good that he merits consideration in the upper rounds over skill position players is a better bet than glamorous WR's and the like. Believe me, if you listed all the receivers we have taken in the first two rounds versus the offensive lineman, you will find a lot more duds at wideout. I'm guessing on the receivers based on what I recall from watching our drafts over he years but I posted a list here a while ago on the lineman. 471543[/snapback] I agree 100%. Nothing makes me shudder more than picking a WR, or especially a TE, in the first round. I think I'm still carrying the trauma of the Perry Tuttle and Tony Hunter. Perhaps one factor is that skill players need to contribute immeditely, peak around year 4, and start to diminish around year 6. OL and to a lesser degree DL start later, peak later and play longer. This buys you a little more time to adjust them to NFL-level play, making them safer picks. You don't have that luxury with, say, a RB. If he's not ready to play untill he's 25, it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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