Would you want to see Josh play hardball with the organization?

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

No it doesnt. This isnt the drought-era complete rebuild. This is a "step in and step up" situation.

 

Retooling a Defense is a pretty quick turnaround. We saw Doug frickin Whaley pull it off a number of times when he was dealt 5 Defensive Coordinators in 4 years (each with differerent schemes). And we still had a great defense.

 

Did we? Whaley oversaw four seasons as GM - two Marrone seasons and two Rex seasons - with his DCs being Pettine, Schwartz, Rex (Thurman), Rex (Thurman and Rob). 

 

We had one great defense - Schwartz - and one good one (Pet). Rex's Ds were horrible. 

 

I think if we make a coaching change the first season would feel to me a lot like last year.... where I never really believed we were going to win the Superbowl but we were still a decent football team that wins double digit games. You'd still have a puncher's chance, because you have Josh, but you'd be a second tier favourite. I don't think that is a reason not to change coach. If Pegula believes McDermott should be fired he should fire him. Not hold on because he doesn't have an obvious replacement in mind or because he thinks it might take a mini transitional year. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

 

And what would be the result of that conversation?  I know we'd all like for it to mean the owner telling the HC and GM their methods are inadequate, but I'm not even sure of that considering TPegs' history forcing out via management players who "rebelled" with his other team. 

 

At the same time, McD was pretty clear from Day 1 that he was the one voice for the Buffalo Bills.  As in, he's running the football side which later included this GM.  I'm not optimistic that having even a player like the reigning NFL MVP interfere with that would be welcomed by a personality like McD.  

 

It's shaping up (if it hasn't already) to be a show-down between Josh and the HC/GM who are an anchor on this franchise.  Still not optimistic this owner knows who to handle that situation.  

 

Good points, but we're a little lucky that Pegula treats the Sabres much much differently than how he manages the Bills. Additionally, Josh has a very different level of cache than Eichel ever did.

 

As to the result? It at least should get those wheels turning in Terry's head and make it known that his top players arent happy/confident in the staff. What he does from there, who knows. But I believe it would at least change the mindset from "Everything is fine, I can ride these guys for the next 10 years, they have carte blanche" to "I need to keep an eye on if they are making changes/improving".

 

If word got back to McD that the conversation happened, I completely agree he would not be happy. No one would. But then he needs to ask himself why it happened.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I am including successful coordinators and position coaches as competent. There are plenty of football minds that would accomplish what has been accomplished over the last 5 or 6 years IMO. There may be a year or 2 where they are a game or 2 worse or a game or 2 better but the delta is small.

 

Where I stand, is we have seen this group try over and over. I’m willing to sacrifice a 13-4 season for a 12-5 season if it means being more effective vs. KC in the playoffs. I believe there is so little downside risk. I’m not even saying that there is massive upside to be had. I’m willing to take on he minimal downside risk in exchange for the potential upside. The worst case scenario is that you win the division and get bounced in round 1 or 2 instead of 2 or 3. 

Successful coordinators can be much worse than McD as a head coach and it’s certainly possible that our team is worse than it is now with one of them….. or proven competent coaches.  
 

 

[TwistofFate]

30 minutes ago, muppy said:

come on now this is a red hot take. He's not leaving Buffalo. He just resigned a long term deal.  He is one of us. 

I'm just saying. 🤷

 

In the words of Tupac....i ain't mad at ya, got nuttin but love for ya. 

[DrDawkinstein]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Did we? Whaley oversaw four seasons as GM - two Marrone seasons and two Rex seasons - with his DCs being Pettine, Schwartz, Rex (Thurman), Rex (Thurman and Rob). 

 

We had one great defense - Schwartz - and one good one (Pet). Rex's Ds were horrible. 

 

I think if we make a coaching change the first season would feel to me a lot like last year.... where I never really believed we were going to win the Superbowl but we were still a decent football team that wins double digit games. You'd still have a puncher's chance, because you have Josh, but you'd be a second tier favourite. I don't think that is a reason not to change coach. If Pegula believes McDermott should be fired he should fire him. Not hold on because he doesn't have an obvious replacement in mind or because he thinks it might take a mini transitional year. 

 

IMO Rex's Ds being "horrible" was more on Rex/Rob and dropping Mario back into coverage than it being a personnel issue.

 

I think it's fair to go back as far as 2012, when Whaley was AsstGM/Director of Player Personnel, to start looking at the changes and how much re-tooling he had to do year over year. Moving from Wandstadt to Pettine to Schwartz to Rex/Thruman to McD/Frazier.

 

Some very good years in there as you pointed out, and some down years, but never outright horrible, and we were never so many PLAYERS away from being good on Defense, it was almost always a scheme issue.

 

All in all, we agree. The fear of change shouldnt stop Pegula from making the change. At worst we have one anxious year where we still make the playoffs.

[muppy]

4 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

I'm just saying. 🤷

 

In the words of Tupac....i ain't mad at ya, got nuttin but love for ya. 

I can elaborate further. Why would #17 leave Buffalo. I can't believe anyone would think he is anything but a Bills Lifer.

 

seriously? he leave for a Lombardi? he wants it HERE. full stop

 

 

well? You think #17 will wanting to quit on Buffalo. NO WAY None zippo .

Edited 6 hours ago by muppy

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, muppy said:

I can elaborate further. Why would #17 leave Buffalo. I can't believe anyone would think he is anything but a Bills Lifer.

 

seriously? he leave for a Lombardi? he wants it HERE. full stop

 

Most of what we discuss here are things that will never happen. You just have to roll with it for the sake of discussion and glean the good points that are made either way.

[muppy]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Most of what we discuss here are things that will never happen. You just have to roll with it for the sake of discussion and glean the good points that are made either way.

I roll with it and was mocked  for having a strong opinion

 

it is what it is. 

 

I'm still salty after the weekend sorry not sorry

 

 

[TwistofFate]

9 minutes ago, muppy said:

I can elaborate further. Why would #17 leave Buffalo. I can't believe anyone would think he is anything but a Bills Lifer.

 

seriously? he leave for a Lombardi? he wants it HERE. full stop

 

 

well? You think #17 will wanting to quit on Buffalo. NO WAY None zippo .

Bro,Tom Brady was a lifer too.  Peyton Manning was a lifer too. 🤷

[Billl]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Not saying that. That would be “everyone is better.” I think 4-2 is the absolute floor for where this team could be. I think lots and lots of people would have them there. There are also people that would have this group at 5-1 or 6-0.

Would they?  Take Josh out of the equation and look at the roster.  Better yet, compare it to the 2022 team.  That team had an elite #1 WR in Diggs (1426 yards and 11 TDs) and the much-maligned Gabe Davis (836 yards and 7 TDs) to go with Singletary, Moss, and Cook at RB.  Defensively, it had Von Miller, 27 year old Tre White, Hyde, Poyer, and Edmunds as well as Benford, Rousseau, Oliver, and prime Milano. 

 

That team got crushed by injuries, but the roster was light years ahead of where it is today.  Part of that is simply years of drafting at the end of the rounds catching up with Beane, but that doesn’t account for all of it.  Dalton Kincaid may be the only addition of note since then, and even he’s been more potential than production.  

 

From where I sit, McDermott is taking a beating for not spinning straw into gold.  Meanwhile, Beane has had what appears to be 3 consecutive lackluster drafts and a revolving door of free agent disappointments (Hardy, Sherfield, Samuel, Palmer, Hoecht, Ogunjobi, Bosa etc.). Heck, one season of Mack Hollins might be his crown jewel of the past 3 seasons so far.  What should Sean realistically be expected to do when the offense has 1 weapon and you’re forced to run guys like Cole Bishop and the corpse of Tre White out there on defense?

Edited 5 hours ago by Billl

[muppy]

Just now, TwistofFate said:

Bro,Tom Brady was a lifer too.  Peyton Manning was a lifer too. 🤷

are you a Bills fan Ma'am?

 

lol

1 minute ago, muppy said:

are you a Bills fan Ma'am?

 

lol

Im FEMALE...dude

 

Im still laughing though. You be You.

[boyst]

2 hours ago, Dillenger4 said:

You are comparing apples to oranges. Our players today are nowhere near what we had with Whaley.

We need LB's.

We need CB's x 2.

We need Safety.

we need youth and speed on D.

Whether we rebuild the defense right now or next year the same will be true on these positions. We don't have any specific skilled players on this defense, not as long as Benford is in a slump. He is the only exclusive scheme fit player on this defense. 

 

At this point I would love to acquire Tremaine Edmonds next year with Jim Schwartz as a defensive coordinator. Milano may not be back, but Bernard moves to Will, and then we can move in Dorian Williams to make a 4-3 defense.

 Thompson will be here for depth, but may also go in over Bernard

Bosa could fit the wide 9 and so could AJE. Rosseau is ?? And Ed Oliver too. But they're good enough. Theyd be fine. 

It'll end with safety and corner 

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Can you take any GM and have the 8 year run the Bills have had?  The overwhelming issue right now is talent and injuries, not coaching.

With JA yes I think so.

Remember this new team that stumbled into the playoffs with Kaylin clay, Robert Foster, and Devin Singleterry starting 

[TwistofFate]

7 minutes ago, muppy said:

are you a Bills fan Ma'am?

 

lol

Im FEMALE...dude

 

Im still laughing though. You be You.

🤷

 

Point is a lot of lifers turned out to not be lifers. 

 

After Thurman Thomas to the Dolphins and Bruce Smith to the Redskins, I know all to well even our most beloved aren't lifers. 

[SirAndrew]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No washed up retreads. The answer is you have a zillion options that could accomplish what they have. The point is, it doesn’t matter if it is Stefanski or Flores or Klint Kubiak or whomever. The floor doesn’t move much (assuming healthy Josh) but maybe the ceiling does.

 

My guy at this point is Curt Cignetti. He’s older than I’d like but just wins. He has that swagger/confidence that I’m looking for in the next coach. The Bills have lost their edge. Cignetti’s teams never lose their edge.

I wouldn’t be remotely worried about Cignetti’s age in his 60’s. This is a win now franchise, and I don’t care if the head coach is here in ten years if he has more to offer right now. 

[boyst]

5 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

🤷

 

Point is a lot of lifers turned out to not be lifers. 

 

After Thurman Thomas to the Dolphins and Bruce Smith to the Redskins, I know all to well even our most beloved aren't lifers. 

These guys are just doing their job. Sure they get attached and drink the Kool-Aid for the corporation they work for but the end of the day it's still just a job to them punching in and punching out 

 

If these guys get the chance to play with another team later on and think they can get the money or the professional accolades they want then why the hell wouldn't they? 

 

I'm going to retire in 10 years, no joke. If my company came to me and said I could work part-time remote doing my same job for half the money I make I would do it. It's just a job to them just like our jobs are to us. 

[TwistofFate]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

These guys are just doing their job. Sure they get attached and drink the Kool-Aid for the corporation they work for but the end of the day it's still just a job to them punching in and punching out 

 

If these guys get the chance to play with another team later on and think they can get the money or the professional accolades they want then why the hell wouldn't they? 

 

I'm going to retire in 10 years, no joke. If my company came to me and said I could work part-time remote doing my same job for half the money I make I would do it. It's just a job to them just like our jobs are to us. 

Good point. That's a reason why a lot of these players now are turning into analysts and media personalities even podcasters. There's money in all of it. But if you're in the Twilight of your career and you got the opportunity you think to make the money and to win the big one you're going to go. One last hurrah. 

[muppy]

1 hour ago, TwistofFate said:

🤷

 

Point is a lot of lifers turned out to not be lifers. 

 

After Thurman Thomas to the Dolphins and Bruce Smith to the Redskins, I know all to well even our most beloved aren't lifers. 

you made your point. Im NOT in agreement that #17 would ever "play hardball with Buffalo" to the extent he would want to leave Buffalo to chase a Lombardi elsewhere.  Or leave for money either

 

 

Period. I just don't buy it. Not him. jmo

 

Edited 4 hours ago by muppy

[Watkins90]

4 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Put another way, if we had Callahan or Stefanski starting week 1 this year and played all the games over, I think the odds we are 4-2 or better at this junction are extremely high. 
 

IMO, it’s much more likely we are 4-2 than 2-4 this season only.

 

i wonder if anyone disagrees with that.

I think we would be undefeated if we had Stefanski. Stefanski is actually a great coach who is saddled with a bad organization. 

[Dillenger4]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

He just re-signed this offseason.

And?

[Utah John]

There's no way Josh would do that in public, since it would amount to calling out teammates in certain positions.  What he does behind the scenes is another story.  Allen's demeanor after the Falcons loss told a story. He was so frustrated and depressed.  He usually tells reporters "I have to be better" but now he's saying "we have to be better" and that difference is huge.