Was Drake Maye THAT good yesterday?

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah that isn't what's happening. What's happening is we're watching the Pats build a team the right way and it's pretty deflating. I don't want them to get better, but that's the reality. They have a middling group of pass catchers and no run game to keep defenses honest, but they've still managed to build a WR room and design a scheme that can complete passes downfield at a high clip. They're leaning into that part of the offense and it's winning them games. The Bills have gone the opposite direction. Having Josh Allen at QB and having no downfield passing game is among the very worst failures of team building in NFL history. How do you expect fans to react?

 

Building a team that can’t run at all is the way to build a team?  🤷🏻‍♂️ if you say so.  They’re 4-2.  They look good.  I think your premise of “they built things right” and “we didn’t” is premature.  It’s October.  Running the football matters and unless they improve, inability to do so will be their demise this season imo.  
 

going forward into next season, they’ll likely improve in that capacity.  And it’ll be on Beane to improve our WRs (unless they progress this season and prove that they are enough to win with)

[HappyDays]

16 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

Calling it one of the very worst failures of team building in NFL history just because we do not have one element is just total nonsense and it is extremely unfair to Beane.

 

But that element is what our QB is best at. And they have totally stripped it away. It would be more forgivable if they had just scouted poorly, but the real failure is that they have not even really tried to build up that part of the offense. They've had a bunch of options in the draft or FA/trade market to add downfield weapons and have passed up on all of them. They've neutered maybe the most special arm in NFL history, and for what?

 

I know I am a broken record. But if you look at the best offenses in the NFL right now they can all pass the ball downfield. Maye looks special not because he's playing high efficiency game manager but because he's ripping off chunk passes at will. I suspect next offseason the Pats will lean into that and will go all out to get another real WR in the building.

 

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Running the football matters and unless they improve, inability to do so will be their demise this season imo.  

 

I agree it matters but it should matter as the complementary piece, not the focal point. We broke records in 2020 and 2021 when we could barely run the ball. After Cook broke out we could have made it a point to have an extremely multifaceted offense with an ability to do whatever we wanted to any given opponent and I just think we blew that opportunity.

 

By the way I would still bet on the Bills to win the division this year just because we are a more experienced team and can probably handle the ups and downs of a season better than a young team like the Pats, but it's gonna be close. They have a defense built to stop downfield passes and an offense built to create downfield passes. That's the fundamental recipe of a Super Bowl team. They need to add a difference maker on both sides of the ball, ideally a pass rusher and a pass catcher, before they're a real contender though.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by HappyDays

[No_Matter_What]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But that element is what our QB is best at. And they have totally stripped it away. It would be more forgivable if they had just scouted poorly, but the real failure is that they have not even really tried to build up that part of the offense. They've had a bunch of options in the draft or FA/trade market to add downfield weapons and have passed up on all of them. They've neutered maybe the most special arm in NFL history, and for what?

 

I know I am a broken record. But if you look at the best offenses in the NFL right now they can all pass the ball downfield. Maye looks special not because he's playing high efficiency game manager but because he's ripping off chunk passes at will. I suspect next offseason the Pats will lean into that and will go all out to get another real WR in the building.

My last post on this topic since I too feel like a broken record, but what bunch of options are you talking about? There was one very expensive Metcalf on the market and then in draft Egbuka, McMillan and Golden were out of reach and nobody else has shown anything worth mentioning so far. So what exactly are you talking about? Them not taking a flier in round 4?

 

EDIT: Oh and I forgot, we added Palmer this offseason. Is he supposed to be a downfield threat? If he is not used that way then it is not on Beane / team building.

Edited 2 hours ago by No_Matter_What

[WideNine]

He was good and our secondary was that bad.

 

Leaving 4-5 yards of separation, 10-15 yards of cushion... most NFL starting calibre QBs should feast.

 

I think he is a good QB and Vrabel will have them ready to play. The spector of NE once again winning the division is a bit of a panic, but I think they will be the team in our division that the Bills will have to work to beat for a while.

 

Just not turning the ball over will help as Vrabel teams usually are not offensive juggernauts, but don't make a lot of mistakes.

 

The Saints were on their way to maybe handing them an "L" (and I am not overly impressed with Rattler), but the Patriots peanut punched the ball out on the key drive forcing the turnover and winning the game.

 

Against better DBs Diggs and most of their recovers were quiet. Hunter Henry was solid.

 

So I think Maye is a good QB, but the hype after that particular game was a bit hyped.

 

 

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But that element is what our QB is best at. And they have totally stripped it away. It would be more forgivable if they had just scouted poorly, but the real failure is that they have not even really tried to build up that part of the offense. They've had a bunch of options in the draft or FA/trade market to add downfield weapons and have passed up on all of them. They've neutered maybe the most special arm in NFL history, and for what?

 

I know I am a broken record. But if you look at the best offenses in the NFL right now they can all pass the ball downfield. Maye looks special not because he's playing high efficiency game manager but because he's ripping off chunk passes at will. I suspect next offseason the Pats will lean into that and will go all out to get another real WR in the building.

 

 

I agree it matters but it should matter as the complementary piece, not the focal point. We broke records in 2020 and 2021 when we could barely run the ball. After Cook broke out we could have made it a point to have an extremely multifaceted offense with an ability to do whatever we wanted to any given opponent and I just think we blew that opportunity.

 

By the way I would still bet on the Bills to win the division this year just because we are a more experienced team and can probably handle the ups and downs of a season better than a young team like the Pats, but it's gonna be close. They have a defense built to stop downfield passes and an offense built to create downfield passes. That's the fundamental recipe of a Super Bowl team. They need to add a difference maker on both sides of the ball, ideally a pass rusher and a pass catcher, before they're a real contender though.

 

We also built one of the best offensive lines in team history. Which matters more?  The trenches always matter more than playmakers. This regimes biggest failure, are the swings and misses along the DL.  WRs would be next.  We haven’t been able to affect Mahomes in the playoffs.  That’s the been the biggest factor in our season ending losses.  IMO of course

Just now, WideNine said:

He was good and our secondary was that bad.

 

Leaving 4-5 yards of separation, 10-15 yards of cushion... most NFL starting calibre QBs should feast.

 

I think he is a good QB and Vrabel will have them ready to play. The spector of NE once again winning the division is a bit of a panic, but I think they will be the team in our division that the Bills will have to work to beat for a while.

 

Just not turning the ball over will help as Vrabel teams usually are not offensive juggernauts, but don't make a lot of mistakes.

 

The Saints were on their way to maybe handing them an "L" (and I am not overly impressed with Rattler), but the Patriots peanut punched the ball out on the key drive forcing the turnover and winning the game.

 

Against better DBs Diggs and most of their recovers were quiet. Hunter Henry was solid.

 

So I think Maye is a good QB, but the hype after that particular game was a bit hyped.

 

 

I expect them to be in the hunt all season.  While our schedule is easy, theirs is much easier. 

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

My last post on this topic since I too feel like a broken record, but what bunch of options are you talking about?

 

Metcalf or Pickens should have been the target this year. I gave them some grace last year because they moved on from Diggs and Davis and there weren't any big ticket options available so I get that they had to use 2024 as kind of a reload year. What sucks is that this is supposed to be the season where we see the results of the 2nd rebuild and after spending a fortune on defense it looks the same while the downfield passing offense remains neutered. In a year where the entire NFL looks more vulnerable than ever it feels like we have wasted an opportunity to really pull ahead by leaning into the one person in the organization that makes us special. The #1 seed is the goal and instead I'm not even 100% confident we will win the division. So yeah watching a division rival's QB do what Josh Allen used to do on the regular is pretty deflating.

 

12 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

Oh and I forgot, we added Palmer this offseason. Is he supposed to be a downfield threat?

 

I never understood why people pretended Palmer was a legit downfield threat. It's emblematic of this regime's priorities that in a season where Metcalf and Pickens were available, our "big investment" was the Chargers #3 WR. The defense of course we spent a fortune on. Can't have anything less than two full starting lines worth of defensive line talent, while Josh Allen is throwing real NFL passes to Tyrell Shavers.

 

Anyways I'm getting sick of my own negative talk at this point so I'll leave it at that.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by HappyDays

[No_Matter_What]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Metcalf or Pickens should have been the target this year. I gave them some grace last year because they moved on from Diggs and Davis and there weren't any big ticket options available so I get that they had to use 2024 as kind of a reload year. What sucks is that this is supposed to be the season where we see the results of the 2nd rebuild and after spending a fortune on defense it looks the same while the downfield passing offense remains neutered. In a year where the entire NFL looks more vulnerable than ever it feels like we have wasted an opportunity to really pull ahead by leaning into the one person in the organization that makes us special. The #1 seed is the goal and instead I'm not even 100% confident we will win the division. So yeah watching a division rival's QB do what Josh Allen used to do on the regular is pretty deflating.

 

 

I never understood why people pretended Palmer was a legit downfield threat. It's emblematic of this regime's priorities that in a season where Metcalf and Pickens were available, our "big investment" was the Chargers #3 WR. The defense of course we spent a fortune on. Can't have anything less than two full starting lines worth of defensive line talent, while Josh Allen is throwing real NFL passes to Tyrell Shavers.

 

Anyways I'm getting sick of my own negative talk at this point so I'll leave it at that.

 

I said last post but I'll add one more.

 

So Metcalf and Pickens are "bunch of options" now? One is clearly a head case with attitude problems (and no, I don't say we have to only acquire "choir boys") and the other one was so expensive that it would've been and all-in move for us. Maybe a good one, but still an all-in move. And the only one available.

 

Mentioning the defense in this conversation is just changing a topic.

 

Oh and back to Pats. Their "downfield threats" are Diggs (who was diva here and was supposed to be washed) and then Kayshon Boutte and DeMario Davis. Both definitions of JAGs. If anything, it is a scheme thing if they are making plays downfield, and not "teambuilding". 

[Success]

1 minute ago, No_Matter_What said:

I said last post but I'll add one more.

 

So Metcalf and Pickens are "bunch of options" now? One is clearly a head case with attitude problems (and no, I don't say we have to only acquire "choir boys") and the other one was so expensive that it would've been and all-in move for us. Maybe a good one, but still an all-in move. And the only one available.

 

Mentioning the defense in this conversation is just changing a topic.

 

Oh and back to Pats. Their "downfield threats" are Diggs (who was diva here and was supposed to be washed) and then Kayshon Boutte and DeMario Davis. Both definitions of JAGs. If anything, it is a scheme thing if they are making plays downfield, and not "teambuilding". 

 

We don't scheme WR's "open" like some OC's seem to be able to.  The Pats guys were wide open throughout the day.

 

The one positive today is that the Saints lost, making them more likely to trade a guy like Olave. Who we should be aggressive about going after, imo.

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

I said last post but I'll add one more.

 

So Metcalf and Pickens are "bunch of options" now? One is clearly a head case with attitude problems (and no, I don't say we have to only acquire "choir boys") and the other one was so expensive that it would've been and all-in move for us. Maybe a good one, but still an all-in move. And the only one available.

 

Mentioning the defense in this conversation is just changing a topic.

 

Oh and back to Pats. Their "downfield threats" are Diggs (who was diva here and was supposed to be washed) and then Kayshon Boutte and DeMario Davis. Both definitions of JAGs. If anything, it is a scheme thing if they are making plays downfield, and not "teambuilding". 

I mean the scheme informs the team building and vice versa right

 

Last 2.5yrs we have made a concerted effort to play a certain way and the roster is a reflection of that

[No_Matter_What]

Just now, Success said:

 

We don't scheme WR's "open" like some OC's seem to be able to.  The Pats guys were wide open throughout the day.

 

The one positive today is that the Saints lost, making them more likely to trade a guy like Olave. Who we should be aggressive about going after, imo.

 

I agree with you. I was just trying to refute Happy's point about our WR room being one of the worst failures in NFL history.

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, buffblue said:

Except Drake Maye is 10 times the QB Mac Jones is and anyone with eyes can see that. They are much better positioned than in 2021

If it starts putting pressure on McDs defense I’m happy. Anything that pushes for a change will make me happy at this point

[HappyDays]

15 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

Their "downfield threats" are Diggs (who was diva here and was supposed to be washed) and then Kayshon Boutte and DeMario Davis. Both definitions of JAGs. If anything, it is a scheme thing if they are making plays downfield, and not "teambuilding". 

 

It is for sure a philosophical decision more than anything. They've decided to lean into letting Maye do what he does best. So that philosophy combined with McDaniels who is of course one of the premier offensive minds in the league has helped them build a very good downfield passing offense despite middling WRs. It is something you have to commit to as an organization.

 

Boutte is a legit talent. He was once considered a 1st round prospect before injuries and questions about his attitude caused him to slide to the 6th round. They might have something there. Not that he is a superstar but he may be more than a JAG. Douglas and Hollins, yeah those are classic JAGs.

 

9 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

I agree with you. I was just trying to refute Happy's point about our WR room being one of the worst failures in NFL history.

 

Just to clarify my point without re-opening the Bills discussion (I am guilty of driving this thread off the rails) - It isn't about just the WR room, it's about an entire organizational philosophy that has moved us away from what makes Josh Allen special. WR investment to me is definitely the biggest symptom of the problem but the problem is more fundamental than that. @GoBills808 said it more succinctly above.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by HappyDays

[Ga boy]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It is for sure a philosophical decision more than anything. They've decided to lean into letting Maye do what he does best. So that philosophy combined with McDaniels who is of course one of the premier offensive minds in the league has helped them build a very good downfield passing offense despite middling WRs. It is something you have to commit to as an organization.

 

Boutte is a legit talent. He was once considered a 1st round prospect before injuries and questions about his attitude caused him to slide to the 6th round. They might have something there. Not that he is a superstar but he may be more than a JAG. Douglas and Hollins, yeah those are classic JAGs.

 

 

Just to clarify my point without re-opening the Bills discussion (I am guilty of driving this thread off the rails) - It isn't about just the WR room, it's about an entire organizational philosophy that has moved us away from what makes Josh Allen special. WR investment to me is definitely the biggest symptom of the problem but the problem is more fundamental than that. @GoBills808 said it more succinctly above.

 

So the philosophy change that makes you a skeptic may be based on lack of confidence in JA17s ability to consistently throw the long ball accurately, and trying to protect him with Tom Brady dink and dunk passes.

[Maine-iac]

So much talk about the offense.  They gave the Pats 3 more chances to score.  Had nothing to do with having better WR's.  That's why Maye had as many chances as he did and was able to score enough to win.  We need a better secondary a DT who makes a difference every week.  Josh isn't going to have a bad week that often.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

So much talk about the offense.  They gave the Pats 3 more chances to score.  Had nothing to do with having better WR's.  That's why Maye had as many chances as he did and was able to score enough to win.  We need a better secondary a DT who makes a difference every week.  Josh isn't going to have a bad week that often.

It wasn't a bad game tho, that's kind of the point. It was one bad throw

 

There are too many games where unless Allen is basically perfect the offense looks lost. That's just not a sustainable system 

[Maine-iac]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

It wasn't a bad game tho, that's kind of the point. It was one bad throw

 

There are too many games where unless Allen is basically perfect the offense looks lost. That's just not a sustainable system 

 That system that's not sustainable has been league leading for going on two seasons.  We run the ball so well and Allen has typically been throwing to wide open pass catchers.  This system that is "not sustainable" just needs Allen to make the right reads and he typically does that.  His bad week is when he doesn't do a great job of that but last week was not his best and it wasn't just the interception.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

 That system that's not sustainable has been league leading for going on two seasons.  We run the ball so well and Allen has typically been throwing to wide open pass catchers.  This system that is "not sustainable" just needs Allen to make the right reads and he typically does that.  His bad week is when he doesn't do a great job of that but last week was not his best and it wasn't just the interception.

plz go read the all22 thread of the offense last wk

[PatsFanNH]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Building a team that can’t run at all is the way to build a team?  🤷🏻‍♂️ if you say so.  They’re 4-2.  They look good.  I think your premise of “they built things right” and “we didn’t” is premature.  It’s October.  Running the football matters and unless they improve, inability to do so will be their demise this season imo.  
 

going forward into next season, they’ll likely improve in that capacity.  And it’ll be on Beane to improve our WRs (unless they progress this season and prove that they are enough to win with)

You are 💯 correct, but this year just making the playoffs would be a HUGE HUGE improvement. Maye looks really good and IMO only I think a top 10 QB in the league right now.. but to win in Gillette in the cold and usually snow ya got to be able to run it 

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

plz go read the all22 thread of the offense last wk

I've seen plenty of All22.  All I need to know is Allen reads the crashing DE and hands it off we most likely score.  Allen doesn't throw a pick we most likely score.  A -3 yard pass to Shakir on 3rd and 3 where all you need to do is look at the defense to know we need to be out of that play.  The plays and points were there and the turnovers and shooting ourselves in the foot is what gave the Pats the chances.  Convince me otherwise.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

I've seen plenty of All22.  All I need to know is Allen reads the crashing DE and hands it off we most likely score.  Allen doesn't throw a pick we most likely score.  A -3 yard pass to Shakir on 3rd and 3 where all you need to do is look at the defense to know we need to be out of that play.  The plays and points were there and the turnovers and shooting ourselves in the foot is what gave the Pats the chances.  Convince me otherwise.

so you're convinced that was read option w ty johnson in motion? sounds like your mind is made up lol