The Whatabout Lamar Jackson thread

[BRH]

17 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I think you have put the proverbial horse before the proverbial cart in regards to the Ravens and Lamar.   The Ravens have pretty much been a team with a good/great defense and strong running game for most of their history.  They have never been a team with a great QB.  Flacco was an excellent starting QB but he was never considered an "elite" QB.  When the Ravens realized that Lamar was so good, they made moves to make him a dual threat, including bringing in Greg Roman who had had success with Kaepernick on the Giants.  Lamar has always stressed that he was a passer first, even as a rookie, but Roman's offense had him running the ball to the point that he was getting really beat up.  It's only been the last couple of seasons since the Ravens changed OCs in 2023 to Todd Monken that Lamar has really developed as a NFL passer.  It's only been recently that they also improved their WR group.  Essentially, for the first five years of Lamar's career, the Ravens FO and Harbaugh actually impeded Lamar's development rather than "catered" to him.  

 

I think the poster’s point is that they’ve clearly worked to get him help for whatever stage of development they thought he was at.  Lamar may have always “stressed that he was a passer first,” but he really wasn’t that when he came out of college — it was what he wanted to be.  So they followed their usual formula of building a great defense and strong running game, and then they slowly modified their approach as he developed.  I agree with you that the change has been on the Ravens’ timeline rather than on Lamar’s... but I think the Ravens were right in how they went about it.  

 

To the extent that people are suddenly shifting the narrative to “Lamar has no help,” that’s just ridiculous.  He has Zay Flowers, DHop, a HOF tight end and a generational RB.  He regularly has Pro Bowlers all over the place. The defense is not what it used to be, but that’s because the cap (and Lamar’s own contract) forced that tradeoff.

 

I’m sure a lot of them are pointing to the goal-line series where they ran Henry three times against the Lions.   Well… if Lamar didn’t like the handoff calls, why didn’t he check out of them? Instead, he turned to the sidelines and made his displeasure obvious, showing up both his coaches and his teammates. But when it was Lamar’s turn to make something happen… he got stripped.  Whose fault was that?

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Jackson is very talented but you can count on him to make mistakes in big games

[Golden*Wheels]

On 9/25/2025 at 9:28 PM, julian said:

When asked how he felt about the MVP results after Allen had won, Lamar said the voters have spoken.

 

 Lamar had an opportunity to tell everybody how amazing Josh’s season was and he was a very deserving winner, but instead he just pointed to the voters.

 

 This is the only thing he’s said/done that rubbed me the wrong way, I’m sure he was upset about not winning the award but not enough awareness to handle the questions with class.

JMO, I didn't see him say that so maybe there was something to the "feel" of it, but...that does not strike me as unclassy at all. 

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, BRH said:

 

I think the poster’s point is that they’ve clearly worked to get him help for whatever stage of development they thought he was at.  Lamar may have always “stressed that he was a passer first,” but he really wasn’t that when he came out of college — it was what he wanted to be.  So they followed their usual formula of building a great defense and strong running game, and then they slowly modified their approach as he developed.  I agree with you that the change has been on the Ravens’ timeline rather than on Lamar’s... but I think the Ravens were right in how they went about it.  

 

To the extent that people are suddenly shifting the narrative to “Lamar has no help,” that’s just ridiculous.  He has Zay Flowers, DHop, a HOF tight end and a generational RB.  He regularly has Pro Bowlers all over the place. The defense is not what it used to be, but that’s because the cap (and Lamar’s own contract) forced that tradeoff.

 

I’m sure a lot of them are pointing to the goal-line series where they ran Henry three times against the Lions.   Well… if Lamar didn’t like the handoff calls, why didn’t he check out of them? Instead, he turned to the sidelines and made his displeasure obvious, showing up both his coaches and his teammates. But when it was Lamar’s turn to make something happen… he got stripped.  Whose fault was that?

 

 

DHop and Mark Andrews are shells of their former selves.

 

they have highly paid stars all over that defense.

 

This is mostly wrong.

 

IMO, Lamar has a good OL, a very good back and 1 good WR. 
 

They have a good amount of talent, but I disagree that Baltimore has some

embarrassment of riches on offense in particular. 
 

Offensive talent alone, I don’t think they are close to a team like Detroit or Philly. 

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Meh, I don’t think Lamar in 2019 was capable of running the 2024 Monken offense.

 

I think he was best suited for Roman’s system when he came out of college, and eventually outgrew it.

 

Funnily enough, it’s what I suggested the Bears do to salvage Fields, who was a similarly elite athlete who needed to grow as a passer.

 

I don't disagree, but the problem with Roman is that I think he's good at working with what he has but not in developing his QBs as passers.   Kaepernick didn't improve under his tutelage, which might have been because of his own limitations, but Lamar did improve when he got a new OC.   I think a different OC might have served Lamar -- and the Ravens -- better.

 

Roman is likely to be successful with Chargers because Herbert is already an excellent QB.

 

 

Edited September 27 by SoTier

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I don't disagree, but the problem with Roman is that I think he's good at working with what he has but not in developing his QBs as passers.   Kaepernick didn't improve under his tutelage, which might have been because of his own limitations, but Lamar did improve when he got a new OC.   I think a different OC might have served Lamar -- and the Ravens -- better.

 

Roman is likely to be successful with Chargers because Herbert is already an excellent QB.

 

 

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that imo.

 

i think Roman is the ultimate floor raising OC. Give him a good NFL level athlete with mobility and he can construct a reasonably good offense. And if that QB doesn’t have the ability as a passer to take advantage of more complex passing concepts, well, they are in luck because that’s not Roman’s strength either.

 

He can get guys like Tyrod Taylor, who are basically career backups, to look franchise QB esque for a while. 
 

Basically, my point is that while a different OC may have had 2020 Lamar playing closer to 2025 Lamar, I don’t think there’s another OC that could have reproduced 2019 Lamar winning MVP.  A different OC makes early Lamar resemble early Josh imo. 

[julian]

2 hours ago, Golden*Wheels said:

JMO, I didn't see him say that so maybe there was something to the "feel" of it, but...that does not strike me as unclassy at all. 

 

 

That’s fair, but Lamar knew why the media were asking the question with all the scrutiny around Allen winning over Lamar’s outstanding season.

 

 Maybe I’m wrong and Lamar doesn’t understand, maybe many people are correct in their assessment of his low IQ, in that case I stand corrected and he’s just dumb.

 

 Either way, it wasn’t a big deal, I just felt it was an opportunity for Lamar to give Allen his flowers for winning and at the same time send a message that Allen was a deserving MVP.

[boyst]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

DHop and Mark Andrews are shells of their former selves.

 

they have highly paid stars all over that defense.

 

This is mostly wrong.

 

IMO, Lamar has a good OL, a very good back and 1 good WR. 
 

They have a good amount of talent, but I disagree that Baltimore has some

embarrassment of riches on offense in particular. 
 

Offensive talent alone, I don’t think they are close to a team like Detroit or Philly. 

They do not have an embarrassment of riches but they are one of the best offensive units in the league, undebatable a top 5 unit. The rams, lions, Bengals (w burrow), dolphins can all be on that list. 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, boyst said:

They do not have an embarrassment of riches but they are one of the best offensive units in the league, undebatable a top 5 unit. The rams, lions, Bengals (w burrow), dolphins can all be on that list. 

a lot of that is Lamar imo.

 

Zay is a nice player but he’s closer to a top 30 WR than top 10 to me.

 

I honestly kinda think Henry has lost a bit of a step even from last year. Despite having nearly 170 yards week 1, he’s only fifth in rushing, and he’s averaging a full 30 yards less per game than last year.

 

I think if you remove QB’s, Baltimore’s supporting cast is probably in the top 10-12. You still have teams like the Vikings with JJ and Hock etc etc. 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

a lot of that is Lamar imo.

 

Zay is a nice player but he’s closer to a top 30 WR than top 10 to me.

 

I honestly kinda think Henry has lost a bit of a step even from last year. Despite having nearly 170 yards week 1, he’s only fifth in rushing, and he’s averaging a full 30 yards less per game than last year.

 

I think if you remove QB’s, Baltimore’s supporting cast is probably in the top 10-12. You still have teams like the Vikings with JJ and Hock etc etc. 

And I think that it's part of the issue. How many top 10 wide receivers are there in the league? 10. 

How many of those top 10 receivers are there on a single team? Maybe you can argue that one team has 2? But so far this year it looks like that's not the case 

When you look at how people rate the quarterbacks it is drastically different than the top two wide receivers. 

 

People give a lot more leeway to a good quarterback being great. 

[Robert Paulson]

He has has a dozen pro pbowlers and all pros every year while Josh has had ceci beans. 

 

You shouldn't  be voted MVP when your team is stacked. That is why Josh is a more deserving MVP. 

 

This year's excuse for lemur is now the roster does not support him enough. First it was record. Then it was stats. 

 

 Give me a break with this guy.

 

Very good to great player but cracks under pressure causing his team to crack.

[NewEra]

21 hours ago, boyst said:

Bengals (w burrow), dolphins can all be on that list. 

I think we’re more stacked than both of those teams on offense.  The 5 guys on the OL matter. Depth matters.  Every one of our 11 starters on O is at least average

[FireChans]

18 hours ago, boyst said:

And I think that it's part of the issue. How many top 10 wide receivers are there in the league? 10. 

How many of those top 10 receivers are there on a single team? Maybe you can argue that one team has 2? But so far this year it looks like that's not the case 

When you look at how people rate the quarterbacks it is drastically different than the top two wide receivers. 

 

People give a lot more leeway to a good quarterback being great. 

I’m not sure I totally get what you are saying here, but I don’t think the Ravens offense is significantly better than the Bills. 
 

But much like the Bills, their engine is their QB that makes everyone look better. Lamar scrambling around for 30 seconds to find Bateman behind a defender is not much different than Josh scrambling waiting for Coleman to come back to the ball.

 

and that makes it difficult to judge without QB. I think if you put Jared Goff in Baltimore, he looks okay, and if you put him in Buffalo, he looks kinda bad tbh.

Edited Sunday at 01:50 PM by FireChans

[boyst]

Just now, FireChans said:

I’m not sure I totally get what you are saying here, but I don’t think the Ravens offense is significantly better than the Bills. 
 

But much like the Bills, their engine is their QB that makes everyone look better. Lamar scrambling around for 30 seconds to find Bateman behind a defender is not much different than Josh scrambling waiting for Coleman to come back to the ball.

There's a big difference between the top 10 wide receivers and the rest of the league, at least outside of the top 20 WR's

[Fan in Chicago]

21 hours ago, boyst said:

They do not have an embarrassment of riches but they are one of the best offensive units in the league, undebatable a top 5 unit. The rams, lions, Bengals (w burrow), dolphins can all be on that list. 

Dolphins?? 

[boyst]

31 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Dolphins?? 

Achane, hill, waddle are top tier players

 

Washington, wright, Gordon are quite solid backups. 

 

Alec Ingold is exceptional. 

[justjoshingaround]

21 hours ago, FireChans said:

a lot of that is Lamar imo.

 

Zay is a nice player but he’s closer to a top 30 WR than top 10 to me.

 

I honestly kinda think Henry has lost a bit of a step even from last year. Despite having nearly 170 yards week 1, he’s only fifth in rushing, and he’s averaging a full 30 yards less per game than last year.

 

I think if you remove QB’s, Baltimore’s supporting cast is probably in the top 10-12. You still have teams like the Vikings with JJ and Hock etc etc. 

What does that say about the bills wrs? Imo zay starts over all of them.

[Fan in Chicago]

33 minutes ago, boyst said:

Achane, hill, waddle are top tier players

 

Washington, wright, Gordon are quite solid backups. 

 

Alec Ingold is exceptional. 

Individually excellent players dont by themselves make them one of the best offensive units. imo

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, justjoshingaround said:

What does that say about the bills wrs? Imo zay starts over all of them.

Yeah the Ravens have a superior offensive cast to the Bills, that's not debatable to me imo.

[boyst]

11 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Individually excellent players dont by themselves make them one of the best offensive units. imo

Understood but you could make the same argument that the bills stars are the OL and Cook, with Allen. 

 

The ravens OL is equal or better than the Bills. The Bills are better than the fins OL. Achane isn't too far behind Cook, and all 3 of their backs aren't either to ours. The QB is no debate, that doesn't even know his name. Their WR are better than ours. They have no TE. 

 

We have a lot more talent than we realize and yet it isn't as much as other teams. 

 

We win because of Josh Allen.