Interesting in-game convo between Shakir and Palmer

[Goin Breakdown]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

At some points when you are far ahead, it's actually a smart plan to go from all gas no breaks to more conservative run the clock down mentality. It's actually a sound thought process... albeit not as fun for fans to watch.

Not at all fun especially when it's giving me a heart attack when you got the lions onside kicking to possibly steal one from you. I get the run the clock down but at some point they have to see that the other team is scoring almost at will. 

[DrDawkinstein]

32 minutes ago, Dan said:

You do realize how rare that is to be up by 3 or 4 touchdowns?    
 

I do think some expectations are out of alignment with the reality of our current plane of existence.     Has anyone considered, that maybe Shakir’s statement was just a bit tongue in cheek given where they were in the game?    

 

Yes, my point exactly as to how rare a "safe" lead is in the NFL. We should almost never be taking our foot off the gas.

 

It's not that I expect to be up by 28 points ever. It's that I dont think we should go into prevent just because we have a 10 point lead in the 3rd quarter.

 

 

Edited September 11 by DrDawkinstein

[Sojourner]

49 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yes, my point exactly as to how rare a "safe" lead is in the NFL. We should almost never be taking our foot off the gas.

 

It's not that I expect to be up by 28 points ever. It's that I dont think we should go into prevent just because we have a 10 point lead in the 3rd quarter.

 

 

Some of the better coordinators in recent years sustain that mentality;

 

Lebeau

Spags

Capers

Bellichick

 

 

Keep the opponent uncomfortable and under duress as much as possible. 
 

Like the saying goes, pressure bursts pipes. Maybe they feel it’s our pipes who’ll burst more often than not 😂

[Pete]

I think opposing teams smartly game plan against Bills, and have some successes.  Bills first drive is scripted, and usually Bills score opening drive. Then Bills offense slows for awhile, and sometimes D gives up points.
 

Bills make great halftime adjustments.

 

Bills wake up with a couple minutes left in first half, and they are like an Anaconda.  They start constricting opponents, crunching opponents slowly, and win by 30.

Edited September 11 by Pete

[3rdand12]

20 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

I would agree with this but I wonder just what kind of shell defenses they are playing against us. I have to imagine its dont get beat deep, which is why we always have to take the check or something short/intermediate. 

It feels like were better in the 2nd half is because Allen chipped away at the defense kind of like how the running game gets stronger as the game progresses

Second half adjustments are often how Games are Won !

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Seemed to be the kind of plays the ravens were leaving open most of the game though tbh.  Felt like more execution issues early on offense to me than anything schematic…rewatching the game a couple times a lot more of those quick at/around the LOS plays either worked or should’ve worked than I initially thought.  The ravens just shut a lot of them down with insane tackling early which seemed to gas them out down the stretch 

 

I think the book on Josh is to force him to take that underneath stuff and hope he gets as impatient as his fans do haha..  if the ravens weren’t as good as they were early against the short yardage runs early I think we would’ve scored 50+

This is a really good post when thinking about it more

 The highlighted especially so.

He used to fall for it too.

Brady and Allen are gonna be okay.

 So will Josh Palmer.

 Shakir cracks me up with that smart as heck answer if true.

 

Hang on Bro Its a coming  !!

[NeverOutNick]

21 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I like that players count on JA17 late in games. But I don't like that it just comes across as "we don't have to do anything special most of the game....Josh will figure it out".

Exactly it’s apathetic coaching knowing in the end Josh will bail us out. *see McDs coaching career in Buffalo 

[JP51]

20 hours ago, Dafan said:

We are not playing Ravens every week.  They are literally a team built to beat the Bills with Henry and Lamar.

I get that we dont play them every week... what i am saying is the defense needs to improve to at least a c or c- defense.... pitch an F every week and we have issues maybe you are not disagreeing and just making a side point not sure 

[Mat68]

On 9/10/2025 at 10:11 PM, Richard Noggin said:

What if they tried starting the game (against elite teams especially) with that same urgency and aggression? That's my biggest complaint. Our defense isn't good enough most of the time against the best offenses, but could be with more help (scoring) to make those offenses more one-dimensional. 

They were able to run and control the game the last time they played Baltimore.  Im fine with treating 17 like Clark Kent until he needs to be Superman.  Games where the running game is clicking and PA is set up, play that game.  When needed go spread and attack.  Creating the ground attacks makes the Bills harder to defend.  

[billsfan89]

18 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yes, my point exactly as to how rare a "safe" lead is in the NFL. We should almost never be taking our foot off the gas.

 

It's not that I expect to be up by 28 points ever. It's that I dont think we should go into prevent just because we have a 10 point lead in the 3rd quarter.

 

 

 

I think the only time you should play more conservative on offense is once you have a 3 possession lead and the game starts to get below 8 minutes and you have the ball. Let's say you have the ball at your own 30 and there's 8 minutes flat left in the game and you are up 17. Running the ball a couple of times to try and kill some clock and take 90 seconds off allows you to ensure there's only 2 possessions left for the offense most likely. Then on third down depending on the distance you can either run it again and take another 40 seconds off or throw in a 3rd and medium/long situation and even if there is an incompletion you still took some time off to shorten the game. 

 

I think with a 2 score lead the grinding of the clock probably shouldn't occur until you are hitting about 5 minutes left in the game. As if you are up 10 with 5 minutes left and you run the ball twice you either eat up two timeouts or you press the clock down to 3.5 minutes left and you make it very tight for there to be 2 possessions left for the opponent. 

 

"Garbage Time" in the NFL does not exist for the vast majority of the game. Yeah if you get up 4 scores and have the ball with a quarter left yeah maybe grind the clock then but for most of the game you have to build a lead unless you get to a ridiculous 5+ possession lead. 

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think the only time you should play more conservative on offense is once you have a 3 possession lead and the game starts to get below 8 minutes and you have the ball. Let's say you have the ball at your own 30 and there's 8 minutes flat left in the game and you are up 17. Running the ball a couple of times to try and kill some clock and take 90 seconds off allows you to ensure there's only 2 possessions left for the offense most likely. Then on third down depending on the distance you can either run it again and take another 40 seconds off or throw in a 3rd and medium/long situation and even if there is an incompletion you still took some time off to shorten the game. 

 

I think with a 2 score lead the grinding of the clock probably shouldn't occur until you are hitting about 5 minutes left in the game. As if you are up 10 with 5 minutes left and you run the ball twice you either eat up two timeouts or you press the clock down to 3.5 minutes left and you make it very tight for there to be 2 possessions left for the opponent. 

 

"Garbage Time" in the NFL does not exist for the vast majority of the game. Yeah if you get up 4 scores and have the ball with a quarter left yeah maybe grind the clock then but for most of the game you have to build a lead unless you get to a ridiculous 5+ possession lead. 

 

I honestly think it is one of the areas of NFL game management that is still under appreciated by teams. There are well established principles most employ inside 4 minutes and inside 2 minutes. But basically in a game that isn't a blow out the whole 4th Quarter should be about playing the clock as much as the opponent and you just rarely see teams really start to think that way until much later. Being up two scores and snapping the ball with 20 seconds left. Or being down two scores and still regularly having the clock get inside 5 seconds. I am surprised analytics hasn't yet made teams smarter in those situations 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I honestly think it is one of the areas of NFL game management that is still under appreciated by teams. There are well established principles most employ inside 4 minutes and inside 2 minutes. But basically in a game that isn't a blow out the whole 4th Quarter should be about playing the clock as much as the opponent and you just rarely see teams really start to think that way until much later. Being up two scores and snapping the ball with 20 seconds left. Or being down two scores and still regularly having the clock get inside 5 seconds. I am surprised analytics hasn't yet made teams smarter in those situations 

 

Great point. There are ways to go about it where you are working the clock, but are still pressing and putting on pressure. As you point out, the simplest way is to make sure you arent snapping the ball on a running clock until the play clock is under 5 second. You can still be aggressive in play calling, but make sure you're working taht clock down as much as possible too.

[Sierra Foothills]

22 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Brady has to stop being scared of unleashing Josh to get the ball downfield. I'm sick of these hitch screens that go nowhere (or backwards). He also has to introduce more motion and misdirection in the offense. We need some trickery in this offense. Dabol was able to maximize the offense by doing this, then Dorsey threw that all away. Brady is still acting like a new young driver with his dad's corvette, occasionally tapping the gas but a bit scared to go full throttle. He also seems scared to trust the offense with a complicated play (as if they are rookies). Time for that to stop.

 

This post made me think about all the components of offensive football, the talent, the system, the philosophy, etc.

 

I know our system is often described as more of a Perkins-Erhardt and that some teams use more of a West Coast foundation, others an RPO... and that most offenses are hybrids that utilize common elements.

 

I don't think their talent is measurably better than ours but watching Green Bay run their Shanahan-McVay system, it looked like they do a better job of spacing their receivers and giving Love more easy throws.

 

I sometimes think the Bills don't quite have that level of passing fluency even though we have arguable the best QB in the league.

 

It's my impression that Brady's offense doesn't give Josh enough easy throws.

 

[Dan]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I honestly think it is one of the areas of NFL game management that is still under appreciated by teams. There are well established principles most employ inside 4 minutes and inside 2 minutes. But basically in a game that isn't a blow out the whole 4th Quarter should be about playing the clock as much as the opponent and you just rarely see teams really start to think that way until much later. Being up two scores and snapping the ball with 20 seconds left. Or being down two scores and still regularly having the clock get inside 5 seconds. I am surprised analytics hasn't yet made teams smarter in those situations 

I think this is one area of the game the Chiefs have mastered.  They manage the number if possessions, as much as the clock, and change the tempo of their offense for the situation.  It’s why they always seem to be in a one possession game and always have just enough time on the clock to get the final score and win.  
 

It doesn’t always work.  Just look at your two games last year against them.   In the regular season game, they got the Bills to a 4th down late in the game and most all the metrics say the Bills should have kicked a FG.  If they do the Chiefs had all the time in the world to milk the clock down and tale the lead.  But then Josh Allen did Josh Allen things. Then compare that go the Championship game.  Even if Kincaid makes the catch and the Bills go in to score, there was almost certainly going to be enough time for the Chiefs to get the ball back down one score.

 

As much as Reid is a master at scheming guys open, he's better at managing the possessions amd game clock per possession.  

[DrDawkinstein]

On 9/11/2025 at 2:49 PM, Dan said:

You do realize how rare that is to be up by 3 or 4 touchdowns?    
 

I do think some expectations are out of alignment with the reality of our current plane of existence.     Has anyone considered, that maybe Shakir’s statement was just a bit tongue in cheek given where they were in the game?    

 

On 9/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yes, my point exactly as to how rare a "safe" lead is in the NFL. We should almost never be taking our foot off the gas.

 

It's not that I expect to be up by 28 points ever. It's that I dont think we should go into prevent just because we have a 10 point lead in the 3rd quarter.

 

 

 

Maybe not that rare in this Division 🤷‍♂️