If you are cutting Hamlin, do it now...

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, QCity said:

That won't happen against the top AFC teams in the playoffs - they will target him.

 

The only time KC "targeted" him in the AFCCG was when we foolishly had him in 1v1 man coverage on Xavier Worthy out of the slot. Easy TD. That isn't a Hamlin issue though, that is a scheme issue. Other than that KC was moving the ball at will for many many reasons that had nothing to do with Hamlin's performance.

 

Every defense has at least one player they are trying to hide, it's simply not possible to have 11 above average starters. Having that one player be a safety is about as good an outcome as you could hope for. There's almost no scenario I can envision this year where Hamlin is the reason our defense underperforms. If everything else is working the way it's supposed to, our defense heavy coaching staff should easily be able to work around his limitations. If they can't, that's a larger conversation that I really hope we don't need to have this year.

[Paup 1995MVP]

5 hours ago, Ayjent said:

BTW - I think Andreesen may have played himself off the team last night.  He had a really tough night.

Oh he stood out...as a liability.  But I don't disagree with those who are saying he is safe.  He is.  And that is the issue, not because there are better options, but bc there aren't.

Buffalo Joe could not start right now for the top half of the SEC or Big 10.  He looks so overmatched.  We have a lot of guys who are so limited athletically on defense.  It’s a big problem.  
 

We have missed on a lot of guys.  Even our supposed good players on defense are not that good.  Other than maybe Benford and Milano, if healthy.  (Bernard is always banged up and so is Taron.)   Having the same coach and GM is good for continuity.  But sometimes you need a different set of eyes and different way of thinking added to the mix.  Things can get stale.  Hopefully last night was a wake up call.  If not, the opener could certainly be.  
 

Having Tre White and Bishop or Hamlin starting against the Ravens really scares me.  

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Joe Marino said:

That’s because he sits back there in his lawn chair and allows anybody to catch anything thrown in front of him. And then he proceeds to get burned further because he can’t make a tackle after he allows the catch. He’s a matador…. but ‘he never gets burned over the top’ lol.

....and there's your winning answer...

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

Gunner, you have a lot of good opinions. And you spend far more time studying the Bills than I do. 
 

But I think you have blinders on when it comes to Hamlin. 
 

He’s not an NFL caliber athlete. He’s too slow, has poor reaction time, and doesn’t anticipate well. He’s in position, to sometimes make a play.  But not when he’s up against good athletes. 
 

Lewis isn’t very good either. 
 

Id rather see Hancock or Bishop. At least those guys are mid level nfl athletes. 

 

I really don't. I know what Damar Hamlin is. But someone has to beat him out. That is what has not happened. Bishop is still making major game breaking mistakes when he is out there. I am like everyone else I WANTED Bishop to have a great spring and summer, take that job and never look back. But he still looks worse than Hamlin out there. That is the reality. 

 

I think they are going to start Bishop because they know if he can't beat out Hamlin by year 2 he is veering towards bust territory..... but he is going to be on a short leash. If the mental mistakes continue he will be off the field within 4 or 5 weeks and he will basically be done as a Bill. 

 

Hancock is a slightly different case. There have been some flashes from him through two games. But they haven't been really committing to him learning the safety spot for most of the summer. I think they might now switch his focus that way... but probably not in time to start him week 1.

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I really don't. I know what Damar Hamlin is. But someone has to beat him out. That is what has not happened. Bishop is still making major game breaking mistakes when he is out there. I am like everyone else I WANTED Bishop to have a great spring and summer, take that job and never look back. But he still looks worse than Hamlin out there. That is the reality. 

 

I think they are going to start Bishop because they know if he can't beat out Hamlin by year 2 he is veering towards bust territory..... but he is going to be on a short leash. If the mental mistakes continue he will be off the field within 4 or 5 weeks and he will basically be done as a Bill. 

 

Hancock is a slightly different case. There have been some flashes from him through two games. But they haven't been really committing to him learning the safety spot for most of the summer. I think they might now switch his focus that way... but probably not in time to start him week 1.

Come on man, Bishop got beat one on one where he was suppose to have help from Buffalo Joe inside. Damar missed the tackle that lead to the TD on the same play. Seems no one wants to point that out. Gotta give Bishop more time on the field. Damar sits back and waits for everything to come to him and still there is a 50\50 chance he misses the play. Bishop attacks the play, that timing takes time to learn and it can’t be done on the bench or the film room.  Not saying hes gonna get it but he needs more time on the field as of now. 

Edited August 19 by BananaB

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Come on man, Bishop got beat one on one where he was suppose to have help from Buffalo Joe inside. Damar missed the tackle that lead to the TD on the same play. Seems no one wants to point that out. Gotta give Bishop more time on the field. Damar sits back and waits for everything to come to him and still there is a 50\50 chance he misses the play. Bishop attacks the play, that timing takes time to learn and it can’t be done on the bench or the film room.  Not saying hes gonna get it but he needs more time on the field as of now. 

 

He gets beat one on one where the mistakes are his. Yes, Hamlin misses the tackle. Nobody is trying to tell you Damar is good. He isn't. I've been saying this a long time.... like way before the Cincy incident. He is a borderline NFL talent bottom of the roster guy.

 

But I'm sorry I don't agree with "gotta give Bishop more time on the field." Why? He has got to show he belongs on an NFL field at some stage and can avoid these fundamental, basic, mental lapses. If he can't do that he isn't long for this team or, frankly, this league. He is a second round pick. This is year 2. Sure, he has had some really bad luck with injuries in both camps but it is time to show out or get out. The excuses are wearing thin. Know the bleeping playbook and do your bleeping job. And if he can't he doesn't belong on the field. Simple. You simply can't overcome making these sorts of mental mistakes with this regularity in the pros.

 

I will repeat again - he will start - I hope to hell the light switch goes on because at the moment our safety position terrifies me. But it is put up or shut time for Bishop and if he is still making these mistakes 5 or 6 weeks into this season he will be pulled, make no mistake and Damar Hamlin or Cam Lewis who are significantly lesser athletes but can be trusted to play their assignment will be back on the field. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

 

I agree about Samuel and Moore.  They both won’t make much of a difference and our too small.  Keep Wilkerson Shavers and Chennault.  Put Hamler on the Practice squad. At least we have some size then.  And get rid of Davidson.  My goodness he is bad.   
 

As for safety you can’t have that bad a position group and hope to contend for the Super Bowl.  The deep middle. is always going to be open.

 

And what about CB2 ?  If Tre is done which could be very true, who else plays there if Hairston isn’t ready.  Strong looks lost.  Jackson is so done.  And do we feel good about Ingram?  
 

The secondary is looking very iffy all around right now. 

Simmons I believe is still out there for a safety addition.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Simmons I believe is still out there for a safety addition.

 

If they wanted him they could have done it last year or at any time this year. But if I was the GM he'd have been here last season. Does he look like he has lost a step or two? Yep. But are we in desperation stakes? Yes. Yes we are. I know it hasn't been a popular view on this board but right know Damar Hamlin is still our second best safety.... and that is bad. Very, very bad. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If they wanted him they could have done it last year or at any time this year. But if I was the GM he'd have been here last season. Does he look like he has lost a step or two? Yep. But are we in desperation stakes? Yes. Yes we are. I know it hasn't been a popular view on this board but right know Damar Hamlin is still our second best safety.... and that is bad. Very, very bad. 

Agreed. 

[thenorthremembers]

8 hours ago, Brand J said:

Damar cannot play the run. I have visions of Derek Henry, Jonathan Taylor, and Breece Hall moving past him like he was stuck in mud. Only Rapp cleaned up the Hall mistakes (after a chunk of yardage given up). Every time in these instances Hamlin was there but couldn’t affect the play.

You're giving a few instances and then saying "everytime."  Despite analytics being available showing he is decent against the run.  I didn't say he was a starter.  I was saying if you cut him "today" like the OP suggests you better be damn sure A. Someone better is available and B. That person can learn your system in a few weeks.

 

[Matt_In_NH]

Sorry to break it but Hamlin is unlikely to be cut

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He gets beat one on one where the mistakes are his. Yes, Hamlin misses the tackle. Nobody is trying to tell you Damar is good. He isn't. I've been saying this a long time.... like way before the Cincy incident. He is a borderline NFL talent bottom of the roster guy.

 

But I'm sorry I don't agree with "gotta give Bishop more time on the field." Why? He has got to show he belongs on an NFL field at some stage and can avoid these fundamental, basic, mental lapses. If he can't do that he isn't long for this team or, frankly, this league. He is a second round pick. This is year 2. Sure, he has had some really bad luck with injuries in both camps but it is time to show out or get out. The excuses are wearing thin. Know the bleeping playbook and do your bleeping job. And if he can't he doesn't belong on the field. Simple. You simply can't overcome making these sorts of mental mistakes with this regularity in the pros.

 

I will repeat again - he will start - I hope to hell the light switch goes on because at the moment our safety position terrifies me. But it is put up or shut time for Bishop and if he is still making these mistakes 5 or 6 weeks into this season he will be pulled, make no mistake and Damar Hamlin or Cam Lewis who are significantly lesser athletes but can be trusted to play their assignment will be back on the field. 

I totally disagree with you about the film room and it just about knowing the playbook. Players need time to develop on the field and some take longer than others. Some may never get it and some do. The small sample size we have of Bishop isn’t enough. He’s gonna get his shot but you harping on him like he’s the only guy that has missed assignments is laughable. Especially at the safety position where everyone they have plugged in since Poyer and Hyde hasn’t looked like they know the job.

Edited August 19 by BananaB

[boyst]

10 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

The sad thing is you’re right.  Bishop looks absolutely clueless on the field.  
 

Hamlin understands the game.  But just can’t move fast enough 

 

The truth of the matter is that Hancock a 5th round pick has the most physical ability of any safety in the Bills roster including Rapp.  (Who would probably not start for half the teams in the NFL-but is at least solid, a Poyer light who knocks everyone out around him including himself )

 

Real bad indictment on the Bills front office with this group of safeties.  

I think it's an indictment of our system more than anything. Tampa 2 with overly sensitive reads and complex schemes makes it hard to digest and process in real time. 

[Ayjent]

9 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Buffalo Joe could not start right now for the top half of the SEC or Big 10.  He looks so overmatched.  We have a lot of guys who are so limited athletically on defense.  It’s a big problem.  
 

We have missed on a lot of guys.  Even our supposed good players on defense are not that good.  Other than maybe Benford and Milano, if healthy.  (Bernard is always banged up and so is Taron.)   Having the same coach and GM is good for continuity.  But sometimes you need a different set of eyes and different way of thinking added to the mix.  Things can get stale.  Hopefully last night was a wake up call.  If not, the opener could certainly be.  
 

Having Tre White and Bishop or Hamlin starting against the Ravens really scares me.  

I'm not as worried about White as the Safeties.  White is a smart player that understands where he needs to be and how to play things.  His physical abilities just aren't where they used to be.  He will be a serviceable starter until Hairston is ready to start.  Bishop better have just been rusty with being out and then limited, because they can't be happy with what they saw against Chicago.  Hamlin is what he is, a guy that is limited in range and coverage and makes the D vulnerable and have to play differently.  I think the Bills will be very actively looking for someone they can sign.  Bishop just looks like a guy that doesn't have it, and I know that seems premature, but I've not seen a single thing from him that looks promising in any game he's played.  Usually you can see the talent even if there are things that are clearly not up  to par.  I'm not seeing it.  I'm not really sure why McD's defense puts such a high emphasis on the S position being so difficult.  It just makes replacing people difficult.  D is a lot of instinct and if you have guys overthinking things it can definitely cause them to look lost and mitigate what they may be good at.  So could that be the case with Cole, maybe?  Hopefully...but I don't think so. 

 

And here is the thing I see, which I admit I may be wrong about because I don't know what goes on everyday behind the scenes: you have what you have, and sometimes you have to make do and find ways to optimize it.  Sometimes it feels like that isn't happening enough on the D side.  It's very scheme primacy, rather than talent primacy.  I think they do a ton of good things with player development, but also I feel like the talent is sometimes there and they are a little stubborn in how they want to use it.  Again, just trying to figure out how there are misses in what Beane and co do on draft day with such high picks and what happens from there on the D side.  

[GunnerBill]

36 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I totally disagree with you about the film room and it just about knowing the playbook. Players need time to develop on the field and some take longer than others. Some may never get it and some do. The small sample size we have of Bishop isn’t enough. He’s gonna get his shot but you harping on him like he’s the only guy that has missed assignments is laughable. Especially at the safety position where everyone they have plugged in since Poyer and Hyde hasn’t looked like they know the job.

 

None of them have made the number of just back breaking big play mental mistakes that he has in coverage. I liked the Bishop pick. I want him to work out. But we have to be honest about what we are seeing on the field and not make excuses for him just because we are desperate for someone to be an upgrade from our pretty poor starting safeties in 2024. 

 

Of course players develop at different rates. But if you are making back breaking mental mistakes that give up big plays at the rate Cole is you are not gonna be allowed to play through it for very long. You wouldn't be anywhere. 

[Ayjent]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

None of them have made the number of just back breaking big play mental mistakes that he has in coverage. I liked the Bishop pick. I want him to work out. But we have to be honest about what we are seeing on the field and not make excuses for him just because we are desperate for someone to be an upgrade from our pretty poor starting safeties in 2024. 

 

Of course players develop at different rates. But if you are making back breaking mental mistakes that give up big plays at the rate Cole is you are not gonna be allowed to play through it for very long. You wouldn't be anywhere. 

This is exactly right.  Consistency is what separates guys who are fringe to be on a roster from all-pros.  Cole has shown way too much inconsistency, coupled with not a lot of flash.

[Not at the table Karlos]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I really don't. I know what Damar Hamlin is. But someone has to beat him out. That is what has not happened. Bishop is still making major game breaking mistakes when he is out there. I am like everyone else I WANTED Bishop to have a great spring and summer, take that job and never look back. But he still looks worse than Hamlin out there. That is the reality. 

 

I think they are going to start Bishop because they know if he can't beat out Hamlin by year 2 he is veering towards bust territory..... but he is going to be on a short leash. If the mental mistakes continue he will be off the field within 4 or 5 weeks and he will basically be done as a Bill. 

 

Hancock is a slightly different case. There have been some flashes from him through two games. But they haven't been really committing to him learning the safety spot for most of the summer. I think they might now switch his focus that way... but probably not in time to start him week 1.

They switched the focus about 2 weeks ago IIRC. He’s been practicing at safety exclusively even tho he played some nickel in preseason. I agree that it was most likely too late for him to start. But I could see him starting a few weeks into the season if the safeties continue to struggle. 

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

They switched the focus about 2 weeks ago IIRC. He’s been practicing at safety exclusively even tho he played some nickel in preseason. I agree that it was most likely too late for him to start. But I could see him starting a few weeks into the season if the safeties continue to struggle. 

 

Yea so could I. 

[BananaB]

53 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

None of them have made the number of just back breaking big play mental mistakes that he has in coverage. I liked the Bishop pick. I want him to work out. But we have to be honest about what we are seeing on the field and not make excuses for him just because we are desperate for someone to be an upgrade from our pretty poor starting safeties in 2024. 

 

Of course players develop at different rates. But if you are making back breaking mental mistakes that give up big plays at the rate Cole is you are not gonna be allowed to play through it for very long. You wouldn't be anywhere. 

What’s the back breaking mistake from Sunday night? Yeah he lined up on the WR who caught the TD, he was suppose to have support inside by Buffalo Joe and it wasn’t there. He also had support over top on Hamlin and the he missed the tackle. So how you determined Bishops the one at fault for the back breaking play is crazy. 

Edited August 19 by BananaB

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, BananaB said:

What’s the back breaking mistake from Sunday night? Yeah he lined up on the WR who caught the TD, he was suppose to have support inside by Buffalo Joe and it wasn’t there. He also had support over top on Hamlin and the he missed the tackle. So how you determined Bishops the one at fault for the back breaking play is crazy. 

 

He was in the wrong spot, didn't anticipate and didn't react quickly enough. Sure, Hamlin missed the tackle, but Bishop misplayed his assignment.