So how does this Cook's "hold-in" end gracefully (if there is no extension)?

[Mister Defense]

7 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

The one game doesn't necessarily give me the confidence. Josh and the O line does. You said there would be a massive drop off without cook, and I was just using that one game as a small example that they were fine. 

 

A RB will never move the needle, unless you're a freak like Barkley or Henry.

 

And even still... Barkley was a beast in NY when healthy, but it didn't matter cause the giants had a horrible o line and QB

 

Huh!?? One of the silliest comments I have ever read in this forum.

 

Wow, so super illogical

 

Now, go and look at the playoff teams from last year, and then come back and say if you still believe that nonsense--"a running  back will never move the needle"!!

 

 Except for almost every contending team last year, you mean?  Henry on the Ravens, Cook on the Bills, Gibbs and Montgomery on the Lions, Jacobs on the Packers, Barkley on the Eagles...

 

And it is likely the same this year, I predict. Running backs will never move the needle!

 

 

[BillsFan130]

10 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Huh!?? One of the silliest comments I have ever read in this forum.

 

Wow, so super illogical

 

Now, go and look at the playoff teams from last year, and then come back and say if you still believe that nonsense--"a running  back will never move the needle"!!

 

 Except for almost every contending team last year, you mean?  Henry on the Ravens, Cook on the Bills, Gibbs and Montgomery on the Lions, Jacobs on the Packers, Barkley on the Eagles...

 

And it is likely the same this year, I predict. Running backs will never move the needle!

 

 

All those teams you listed, what's the two things they have in common? Good to elite o lines, with good to elite quarterbacks. Which is exactly my point.

Jacobs was absolutely horrible in 2023 in Vegas , but then he turns great again when he goes to Green Bay. Coincidence?

 

Montgomery averaged 4.0 YPC per in 2022 in Chicago and 3.8 YPc in 2021, but now he's considered a beast in Detroit. Again, what's the common denominator there?

 

 

Edited August 7 by BillsFan130

[Mister Defense]

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That "But running back is the least important skill position," can't be supported in any way? That's nonsense. It's supported in the most telling way.

 

How much are WRs paid? How much are RBs paid? 

 

Wanna know how the NFL values positions? It's not difficult to figure. Check the salaries. It's not a mistake that QBs make the most and long snappers the least.

 

Even TEs are paid more than RBs, though not by that much. Eleven TEs make $12M or over. Fifteen make $10M or over.

 

 

 

Whops, sorry, you got me, dead to right.

 

Of course that makes sense, what you say, that if running backs get payed less they are less important. 

 

In fact, I am sure if you email almost all of the NFL playoff teams from last year, and tell them your theory, they will simply disregard what their own eyes and the cold hard statistics tell them about how vital their star running backs were to their success last year. Somehow get them to throw out all of their objective information and they will listen to you.

 

I would do it now, and CC that email to all the other NFL teams, so they too don't fall into the trap of paying their featured backs more money going forward, less they have the same kind of success those playoff teams, championship contenders had.

 

The top running backs, leading the best running attacks, making championship runs, one after another.  Just a coincidence.  Instead, they should heed to your wise words.

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

All those teams you listed, what's the two things they have in common? Good to elite o lines, with good to elite quarterbacks. Which is exactly my point.

Jacobs was absolutely horrible in 2023 in Vegas , but then he turns great again when he goes to Green Bay. Coincidence?

 

Montgomery averaged 4.0 YPC per in 2022 in Chicago and 3.8 YPc in 2021, but now he's considered a beast in Detroit. Again, what's the common denominator there?

 

 

 

Umm, high level running backs do better with high level offensive lines-?

 

Is that the correct answer??

 

 

[BillsFan130]

6 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Whops, sorry, you got me, dead to right.

 

Of course that makes sense, what you say, that if running backs get payed less they are less important. 

 

In fact, I am sure if you email almost all of the NFL playoff teams from last year, and tell them your theory, they will simply disregard what their own eyes and the cold hard statistics tell them about how vital their star running backs were to their success last year. Somehow get them to throw out all of their objective information and they will listen to you.

 

I would do it now, and CC that email to all the other NFL teams, so they too don't fall into the trap of paying their featured backs more money going forward, less they have the same kind of success those playoff teams, championship contenders had.

 

The top running backs, leading the best running attacks, making championship runs, one after another.  Just a coincidence.  Instead, they should heed to your wise words.

 

 

 

 

 

Umm, high level running backs do better with high level offensive lines-?

 

Is that the correct answer??

 

 

The correct answer is quarterbacks and o lines move the needle on offence, not RBs . Which is why top tackles get paid 30 mil,  top guards get paid 25 mil and top RBs outside of barkley get paid only 15-17 mil.

Edited August 7 by BillsFan130

[Doc Brown]

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

All those teams you listed, what's the one common thing they have in common? Good to elite o lines, with good to elite quarterbacks. Which is exactly my point.

Jacobs was absolutely horrible in 2023 in Vegas , but then he turns great again when he goes to Green Bay. Coincidence?

 

Montgomery averaged 4.0 YPC per in 2022 in Chicago and 3.8 YPc in 2021, but now he's considered a beast in Detroit. Again, what's the common denominator there?

 

 

The Bills have a top five (arguably) offensive line and a dual threat quarterback.  That makes running back a more valuable commodity on this team than most others.  Beane had his shot at the draft to draft Cook's replacement at the draft and he didn't.  I don't want to extend Cook because 2nd contracts to very good but not elite RB's are almost always a bad investment.  Use that money to maintain your offensive line or use it to address a more premium position.  However, I wouldn't trade him before this season and I would even add some likely to be earned incentives to the final year of the deal to keep him as happy as possible.

[Mister Defense]

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

The correct answer is quarterbacks and o lines move the needle on offence, not RBs . Which is why top tackles get paid 30 mil,  top guards get paid 25 mil and top RBs outside of barkley get paid only 15-17 mil.

 

Darn, thought I had it!!

 

Oh well, I will do try harder on the next pop quiz.

 

But there you go again with that obviously humorous idea--'running backs don't move the needle on offense', simply ignoring the fact, which can be very pesky things, that almost all the top teams last year had dynamic running games--and star running backs.

 

Like I said originally, just repeating that silly thing over and over, as you are now doing, ignoring the facts, does not make it any more legitimate.

 

 

[Sojourner]

8 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

The correct answer is quarterbacks and o lines move the needle on offence, not RBs . Which is why top tackles get paid 30 mil,  top guards get paid 25 mil and top RBs outside of barkley get paid only 15-17 mil.

Overwhelmingly you are correct but there is instances where RBs completely “move the needle” for a team. 
 

Derrick Henry in Baltimore and Saquon in Philly turned them into powerhouses. @Mister Defense’s point about Jacobs, they dramatically improved going to him versus Aaron Jones who they let walk which is why I don’t understand the point about them not moving the needle. They can and do.  

Edited August 7 by Sojourner

[Thurman#1]

27 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Whops, sorry, you got me, dead to right.

 

Of course that makes sense, what you say, that if running backs get payed less they are less important. 

 

In fact, I am sure if you email almost all of the NFL playoff teams from last year, and tell them your theory, they will simply disregard what their own eyes and the cold hard statistics tell them about how vital their star running backs were to their success last year. Somehow get them to throw out all of their objective information and they will listen to you.

 

I would do it now, and CC that email to all the other NFL teams, so they too don't fall into the trap of paying their featured backs more money going forward, less they have the same kind of success those playoff teams, championship contenders had.

 

The top running backs, leading the best running attacks, making championship runs, one after another.  Just a coincidence.  Instead, they should heed to your wise words.

 

 

 

 

 

Umm, high level running backs do better with high level offensive lines-?

 

Is that the correct answer??

 

 

 

 

No, high level running backs with high level offensive lines is not the correct answer.

 

Wide receivers are the correct answer.

 

And yeah, I did indeed get you, even if you're desperate enough to use sarcasm unsuccessfully in your argument.

 

Do the Eagles think that running back is the least important skill position? Well, they pay Sequin around $20M AAV. That's a lot of simoleons. But not as many as they pay AJ Brown. Around $32M AAV if I remember correctly. So yeah, the Eagles do think WR is more important than RB.

 

The whole league does.

 

Kid yourself that a completely imaginary, theoretical email that you're apparently writing yourself in your own mind would be more definitive if you want. It's weak sauce, but if that's the way you want to go, that's your choice.

 

But in a capitalist society, and a part of it with a salary cap, it's not difficult to tell what teams value. They pay more for what they value more. 

 

Money is the yardstick. That's why it's not surprising that James Cook wants more of it. Or that AJ Brown gets more of it.

 

Oh, and I do agree with you that RBs move the needle. It's just that WRs move it more.

 

Edited August 7 by Thurman#1

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

5 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

We drafted James Cook in the 2nd round, just three years ago...

 

And he has surpassed expectations, becoming one of the best running backs in the league, with two excellent years.  And underutilized last year, needed more touches.

 

And it's very clear he is an ascending player, seemed to get better with every game last year.  So the best is yet to come. He should have a monster year this year in Buffalo.

 

And the Bills spent three years helping him develop into a top of the line NFL starting running back. I wonder how many man hours that adds up to.

 

So, you think we can maybe get a 3rd  round pick for James Cook? Do you think that is a good trade for the Bills?  I do not.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd rather trade him for a 3rd now than have him sit out the season or overpay him to the tune of 15mil per year. 

 

The biggest RB trade in the past few years was McCaffrey going to the 49ers. They acquired him mid season, with multiple years left on his contract, for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. 

 

Obviously the ranking goes CMC>Cook>Swift.

 

With Cook holding out and his contract situation I think a trade would net us something closer to the Swift trade than the CMC trade. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Only two outcomes are going to happen. He either gets extended or he plays week 1 under his current deal.  He is not missing any game checks.  

[BillsFan130]

8 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Darn, thought I had it!!

 

Oh well, I will do try harder on the next pop quiz.

 

But there you go again with that obviously humorous idea--'running backs don't move the needle on offense', simply ignoring the fact, which can be very pesky things, that almost all the top teams last year had dynamic running games--and star running backs.

 

Like I said originally, just repeating that silly thing over and over, as you are now doing, ignoring the facts, does not make it any more legitimate.

 

 

All teams have "great running backs" is very subjective. Like I said , Jacobs and Montgomery were awful the year before they joined those top teams.

 

Barkley and Henry as I mentioned earlier in this thread are different and those are the only two RBs I would pay, assuming the QB and O line were good. (Maybe CMC also)

 

Cause even As good as Barkley was in NY, the giants offence was one of the worst  in the league .

 

It's All good, we can agree to disagree 

Edited August 7 by BillsFan130

[SectionC3]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

The Bills have a top five (arguably) offensive line and a dual threat quarterback.  That makes running back a more valuable commodity on this team than most others.  Beane had his shot at the draft to draft Cook's replacement at the draft and he didn't.  I don't want to extend Cook because 2nd contracts to very good but not elite RB's are almost always a bad investment.  Use that money to maintain your offensive line or use it to address a more premium position.  However, I wouldn't trade him before this season and I would even add some likely to be earned incentives to the final year of the deal to keep him as happy as possible.

The "Jordan Poyer" route may be how this ends.  Still with a bad attitude, though. 

[JP51]

8 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Only two outcomes are going to happen. He either gets extended or he plays week 1 under his current deal.  He is not missing any game checks.  

I think I am changing my viewpoint here... I felt like there was some hope to get him signed before the season, but likely it went to a protracted hold out till week 10.. But I am now kinda with you here... I think the Kyren Williams deal 3 for 33 changed that... to increased Bills leverage... and Cook and his agent maybe questioning if 15-17mm on the open market is a realistic expectation (and it definitely wont be realistic for next year if he sits out)... that may force him to move... so I definitely feel like they either work a deal out before the season, or an in season extention happens... but I honestly dont see him not showing up for games this year. 

[26TrapDraw]

15 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

He wasn't looking for a massive contract, but D'Andre Swift is a decent comparison.

 

In 2023 he was entering the 4th year on his rookie contract and the Lions traded him to the Eagles for a 4th round pick. 

 

I think we could maybe trade Cook for a 3rd

If any GM in the league gives the Bills a 3rd round pick for Cook right now in the situation he’s in contractually, that GM should be fired.

[BillsFan130]

12 hours ago, Sojourner said:

Overwhelmingly you are correct but there is instances where RBs completely “move the needle” for a team. 
 

Derrick Henry in Baltimore and Saquon in Philly turned them into powerhouses. @Mister Defense’s point about Jacobs, they dramatically improved going to him versus Aaron Jones who they let walk which is why I don’t understand the point about them not moving the needle. They can and do.  

Out of 17 positions in the nfl, RBs are paid 13th out of 17th on the total average contracts. (Factoring in all contracts, including the top contracts and the low ones)

 

Only Above kicker, punter, fullback and long snapper.

 

GMs would agree with me that for the most part, they don't move the needle. If they did, their contracts would reflect that. 
 

So ask yourself this: If RBs are that valuable and are very important to the team like a lot of you are saying , why don't they get paid more?

Edited August 7 by BillsFan130

[Homey D. Clown]

Trade.  I don't care how good a player is anymore.  This is a part of the game that I simply can't stand.  And especially in his case with all the obnoxious tweets and "hold-In" BS.  He ran for just north of 1000 yards ONCE.  Sit your ass down son, that's average.  And nevermind the touchdown total, big deal.  He'd have much less if the offense wasn't getting him down there 50% of the time.  

 

Is he good, yes.  Is he probably the best we've seen since Fred Jackson?  Yep.  don't care.  You signed a contract, how about you honor it instead of holding the franchise hostage.

 

End Rant.

[MikePJ76]

6 minutes ago, Homey D. Clown said:

Trade.  I don't care how good a player is anymore.  This is a part of the game that I simply can't stand.  And especially in his case with all the obnoxious tweets and "hold-In" BS.  He ran for just north of 1000 yards ONCE.  Sit your ass down son, that's average.  And nevermind the touchdown total, big deal.  He'd have much less if the offense wasn't getting him down there 50% of the time.  

 

Is he good, yes.  Is he probably the best we've seen since Fred Jackson?  Yep.  don't care.  You signed a contract, how about you honor it instead of holding the franchise hostage.

 

End Rant.

Good grief.

 

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

12 hours ago, Sojourner said:

Overwhelmingly you are correct but there is instances where RBs completely “move the needle” for a team. 
 

Derrick Henry in Baltimore and Saquon in Philly turned them into powerhouses. @Mister Defense’s point about Jacobs, they dramatically improved going to him versus Aaron Jones who they let walk which is why I don’t understand the point about them not moving the needle. They can and do.  

The great Elway couldn’t win a championship until …. You guessed it, a top tier RB came to town

9 minutes ago, Homey D. Clown said:

Trade.  I don't care how good a player is anymore.  This is a part of the game that I simply can't stand.  And especially in his case with all the obnoxious tweets and "hold-In" BS.  He ran for just north of 1000 yards ONCE.  Sit your ass down son, that's average.  And nevermind the touchdown total, big deal.  He'd have much less if the offense wasn't getting him down there 50% of the time.  

 

Is he good, yes.  Is he probably the best we've seen since Fred Jackson?  Yep.  don't care.  You signed a contract, how about you honor it instead of holding the franchise hostage.

 

End Rant.

Shady McCoy enters the chat 

[Big Turk]

Well, he isn't going to hold out and start missing game checks once the season starts, that's pretty obvious.  And if he does, he is an idiot after what happened with La'Veon Bell who was a far more productive player than Cook is at the time this happened and then he essentially went from one of the best all-purpose backs in the league to terrible and out of the league within a few years of holding out and was never even close to the same player again.

14 minutes ago, Homey D. Clown said:

Trade.  I don't care how good a player is anymore.  This is a part of the game that I simply can't stand.  And especially in his case with all the obnoxious tweets and "hold-In" BS.  He ran for just north of 1000 yards ONCE.  Sit your ass down son, that's average.  And nevermind the touchdown total, big deal.  He'd have much less if the offense wasn't getting him down there 50% of the time.  

 

Is he good, yes.  Is he probably the best we've seen since Fred Jackson?  Yep.  don't care.  You signed a contract, how about you honor it instead of holding the franchise hostage.

 

End Rant.

 

Why do players have to honor contracts when teams don't?  Seems pretty hypocritical.

[Homey D. Clown]

8 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

The great Elway couldn’t win a championship until …. You guessed it, a top tier RB came to town

Shady McCoy enters the chat 

Forgot about Shady.  Yeah, he was really solid for a couple of years.

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Well, he isn't going to hold out and start missing game checks once the season starts, that's pretty obvious.  And if he does, he is an idiot after what happened with La'Veon Bell who was a far more productive player than Cook is at the time this happened and then he essentially went from one of the best all-purpose backs in the league to terrible and out of the league within a few years of holding out and was never even close to the same player again.

 

Why do players have to honor contracts when teams don't?  Seems pretty hypocritical.

 

Teams do honor them, they follow it as it's written.  Not sure which example you'd have where that isn't the case