4th&long Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago 3 hours ago, Big Blitz said: Wtf is this? You know we can argue about tariffs or Obamacare and openly “root” against those things. Imagine openly rooting against your country that’s trying to prevent Iran from having a nuke and a there being a greater war in the ME. You could just ask like Trump, “so what is going on here?” And wait for a more concrete answer. This crap just totally shows both TDS and you truly hate this country. As always big ditz your assumptions are wrong. No one wants iran to have nukes. I don't care for the arrogant attitude, just like Trump. Maybe we should see the results bettor we pound our chest. There was never any ceasefire.
Mikie2times Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago (edited) 20 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: We are going back to the end of WW2 now? Or did you mean even the late 19th century? And I am sure you understand that the circumstances ebb and flow and not everything is at a max conflict state. For if not, then your entire premise is flawed and it is not Trumps fault for certain and it would date back to the original conflict point. If you agree that things ebb and flow, this particular curve started prior to Trumps term which I believe has been shown. So why didnt this happen under Joe? The answer is it started under him, so it did. Since its founding in 1948, Israel has faced near continuous hostility or tension with neighbors and regional actors, including multiple wars and ongoing threats from non-state groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel and Iran have never engaged in a direct, multi-week military conflict. Despite years of mutual hostility, Israel and Iran have mostly fought through proxies (e.g., Hezbollah in Lebanon, militias in Syria). As of now, no prolonged, direct, declared war has occurred between the two. Previous U.S. administrations blocked or restrained Israeli military action against Iran. The U.S. has consistently pressured Israel to avoid attacking Iran directly, especially when it might trigger regional war or undermine diplomatic efforts like the JCPOA. Netanyahu has long pushed for action against Iran’s nuclear program for over a decade, Netanyahu has publicly called Iran the greatest threat to Israel and advocated military preparedness. Netanyahu played Trump and will do so again. He knew to a certainty Iran wouldn't negotiate out of this. He leveraged Trumps fake powers of negotiation to get a US approved military action against Iran. Something he wasn't able to do before. Then for the cherry he pulled in the US military to do his bidding. Now we celebrate Trump? Please. This is the story teller Trump doing what he does. He got played by a more intelligent regime plan and simple. Edited 7 hours ago by Mikie2times
All_Pro_Bills Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago 43 minutes ago, Trump_is_Mentally_fit said: You forgot that Trump pulled us out of the Iranian nuclear deal to begin with. There were inspectors in place during the treaty On the other side of the coin the Iranians did not trust the inspectors as they suspected the International Atomic Energy Agency personnel were providing intelligence about the program and the facilities to the U.S. and Israel.
sherpa Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago 1 hour ago, Mikie2times said: Evidence of what? They were trying to build a bomb. Nobody would dispute that. Why did Isreal choose not to attack until now? What is different right now (hint, it's not progress with a nuclear weapon). The evidence is what I laid out. As to the "why now," I think it is obvious, and it isn't strictly my opinion, it's from listening to countless discussions with Israeli officials, mostly ex ambassadors and others involved in dealing with this while living there and undergoing these relentless attacks. To respond to the question, I think the Oct 7 2023 inhumane barbarism started it. Prior to that, things were kind of quiet by local standards. Hamas and the Palestinians enjoyed employment within Israel and the Israelis mistakenly thought that at long last there could be some kind of coexistence. Then we witness the most barbaric attack in modern history. Babies killed, families butchhered and filmed, and a host of other unimaginable atrocities. Israel responds by attempting to finally eliminate Hamas, which is nothing more than a murderous org taking intl relief and converting it into an underground weapons delivery system. Hezbollah chips in, and hundreds of thousands of Israelis have to leave northern Israel. The entire country is involved in supporting their defense. The economy is no longer functioning with so many displaced and so many reservists away from their usual careers. Hamas gets set back and then the brilliance of Hezbollah getting severely castrated by the beeper thing. Syria collapses, as the Israelis use that to destroy existing air defenses and create a corridor through there to Iran. That was a big deal, and I pointed that out at the time. Now you have a very reduced capability from Hamas and Hezbollah, and the Iranian weapons program still a major threat. Not just nuc procurement, but a massive ballistic missile capability. Guess what? They've got a clear path to Tehran after decades of threatened and backed up murder. They've had scores of human assets inside Iran preparing for this moment for years, and the activated them, building drone launchers and other offensive weapons from within. Air defense eliminated, The timing was perfect, as was the execution. It is the dream scenario for the west, the middle east countries wanting to live in peace and anyone else who is sick and tired of the worst regime on earth. 1 1 2
Mikie2times Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago 7 minutes ago, sherpa said: The evidence is what I laid out. As to the "why now," I think it is obvious, and it isn't strictly my opinion, it's from listening to countless discussions with Israeli officials, mostly ex ambassadors and others involved in dealing with this while living there and undergoing these relentless attacks. To respond to the question, I think the Oct 7 2023 inhumane barbarism started it. Prior to that, things were kind of quiet by local standards. Hamas and the Palestinians enjoyed employment within Israel and the Israelis mistakenly thought that at long last there could be some kind of coexistence. Then we witness the most barbaric attack in modern history. Babies killed, families butchhered and filmed, and a host of other unimaginable atrocities. Israel responds by attempting to finally eliminate Hamas, which is nothing more than a murderous org taking intl relief and converting it into an underground weapons delivery system. Hezbollah chips in, and hundreds of thousands of Israelis have to leave northern Israel. The entire country is involved in supporting their defense. The economy is no longer functioning with so many displaced and so many reservists away from their usual careers. Hamas gets set back and then the brilliance of Hezbollah getting severely castrated by the beeper thing. Syria collapses, as the Israelis use that to destroy existing air defenses and create a corridor through there to Iran. That was a big deal, and I pointed that out at the time. Now you have a very reduced capability from Hamas and Hezbollah, and the Iranian weapons program still a major threat. Not just nuc procurement, but a massive ballistic missile capability. Guess what? They've got a clear path to Tehran after decades of threatened and backed up murder. They've had scores of human assets inside Iran preparing for this moment for years, and the activated them, building drone launchers and other offensive weapons from within. Air defense eliminated, The timing was perfect, as was the execution. It is the dream scenario for the west, the middle east countries wanting to live in peace and anyone else who is sick and tired of the worst regime on earth. So what will allow that to happen now? Regime is still in place. Pursuit of Nuclear capability will still happen. Region will still be engulfed in holy wars as it has for nearly its entire existence. What exactly was accomplished again? A temporary slowdown in Irans nuclear capability?
Homelander Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago 50 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: 2020 Alleged Israeli attacks against Iran's nuclear program stepped up significantly after the disintegration of the 2015 nuclear deal meant to keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons. July: A mysterious explosion tears apart a centrifuge production plant at Iran's Natanz nuclear enrichment facility. Iran blames the attack on Israel. November: A top Iranian military nuclear scientist, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, is killed by a remote-controlled machine gun while travelling in a car outside Tehran. A top Iranian security official accuses Israel of using electronic devices to remotely kill the scientist, who founded Iran's military nuclear programme in the 2000s. 2021 April 11: An attack targets Iran's underground nuclear facility in Natanz. Iran blames Israel, which does not claim responsibility, but Israeli media widely reports that the government orchestrated a cyberattack that caused a blackout at the facility. April 16: Iran begins enriching uranium up to 60, its highest purity ever and a technical step from weapons-grade levels of 90 per cent. 2022 June: Iran accuses Israel of poisoning two nuclear scientists in different cities within three days of each other, though the circumstances remain unclear. 2023 On October 7, 2023, Hamas militants from the Gaza Strip stormed into Israel, killing 1200 people and taking 250 hostage, beginning the most intense war between Israel and Hamas. Iran, which has armed Hamas, offers support to the militants. 2024 Feb 14: An Israeli sabotage attack led to multiple explosions on an Iranian natural gas pipeline running from Iran's western Chaharmahal and Bakhtiari province to cities on the Caspian Sea. April 1: An Israeli airstrike demolished Iran's Consulate in Damascus, Syria, killing 16 people, including two Iranian generals. April 14: Iran launched an unprecedented missile and drone attack on Israel, firing over 300 missiles and attack drones in response to the Israeli airstrike in Damascus. Working with a US-led international coalition, Israel intercepts much of the incoming fire. April 19: A suspected Israeli strike hit an air defence system near an airport in Isfahan, Iran. July 31: Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is assassinated by an apparent Israeli airstrike during a visit to Tehran. Israel had pledged to kill Haniyeh and other Hamas leaders over the Oct 7 attack. Sept 27: Israeli airstrike killed Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Formed by Iranian Revolutionary Guard members who went to Lebanon in 1982 to fight invading Israeli forces, Hezbollah was the first group that Iran backed and used as a way to export its brand of political Islam. Oct 1: Iran launched its second direct attack on Israel, though a US-led coalition and Israel shot down most of the missiles. Oct 16: Israel killed Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar in the Gaza Strip. Oct 26: Israel openly attacks Iran for the first time, striking air defence systems and sites associated with its missile programme. All during Biden's term. So to say Israel is only attacking Iran now because Trump is in power seems misplaced 30 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: So why didnt this happen under Joe? The answer is it started under him, so it did. Interesting how May 2018 is missing from your timeline - almost like that part completely wrecks your argument. Clever omission… just not clever enough. Why would Iran give Biden a deal? Trump tore up the last one to score points with his base, proving US diplomacy has a four-year shelf life. And with Iran aligned with Russia, they were never going to hand Biden a win he could parade as a foreign policy comeback. 1
Bray Wyatt Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago 23 minutes ago, Mikie2times said: Since its founding in 1948, Israel has faced near continuous hostility or tension with neighbors and regional actors, including multiple wars and ongoing threats from non-state groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel and Iran have never engaged in a direct, multi-week military conflict. Despite years of mutual hostility, Israel and Iran have mostly fought through proxies (e.g., Hezbollah in Lebanon, militias in Syria). As of now, no prolonged, direct, declared war has occurred between the two. Previous U.S. administrations blocked or restrained Israeli military action against Iran. The U.S. has consistently pressured Israel to avoid attacking Iran directly, especially when it might trigger regional war or undermine diplomatic efforts like the JCPOA. Netanyahu has long pushed for action against Iran’s nuclear program for over a decade, Netanyahu has publicly called Iran the greatest threat to Israel and advocated military preparedness. Netanyahu played Trump and will do so again. He knew to a certainty Iran wouldn't negotiate out of this. He leveraged Trumps fake powers of negotiation to get a US approved military action against Iran. Something he wasn't able to do before. Then for the cherry he pulled in the US military to do his bidding. Now we celebrate Trump? Please. This is the story teller Trump doing what he does. He got played by a more intelligent regime plan and simple. I am not celebrating anything. And this is taking what you seen happen and making up the reasons for it. You do not know any of this.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago I need to give credit where credit is due. Today’s reported tongue lashing of Iran’s and Israel’s leaders gave them cover to say they had no choice. They save face. How long it will last is the question. It’s a good start. 1 1
Mikie2times Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago (edited) 11 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: I am not celebrating anything. And this is taking what you seen happen and making up the reasons for it. You do not know any of this. It's right in front of your face. Are we supposed to believe that Netanyahu was not aware of this 60 day deal and that it was just a coincidence Israel attacked on day 61 with an operation that clearly took extensive time and planning? Perhaps long enough to date back to Trumps first term? Further do you think Netanyahu was not aware at how limited Iran would be in negotiating with Trump/US on this subject? It was a simple check mate from a smarter leader. Hell, he even pulled us into it. You would better served arguing that it was all planned by both of them the whole time. Edited 6 hours ago by Mikie2times
The Frankish Reich Posted 6 hours ago Posted 6 hours ago 28 minutes ago, sherpa said: The evidence is what I laid out. As to the "why now," I think it is obvious, and it isn't strictly my opinion, it's from listening to countless discussions with Israeli officials, mostly ex ambassadors and others involved in dealing with this while living there and undergoing these relentless attacks. To respond to the question, I think the Oct 7 2023 inhumane barbarism started it. Prior to that, things were kind of quiet by local standards. Hamas and the Palestinians enjoyed employment within Israel and the Israelis mistakenly thought that at long last there could be some kind of coexistence. Then we witness the most barbaric attack in modern history. Babies killed, families butchhered and filmed, and a host of other unimaginable atrocities. Israel responds by attempting to finally eliminate Hamas, which is nothing more than a murderous org taking intl relief and converting it into an underground weapons delivery system. Hezbollah chips in, and hundreds of thousands of Israelis have to leave northern Israel. The entire country is involved in supporting their defense. The economy is no longer functioning with so many displaced and so many reservists away from their usual careers. Hamas gets set back and then the brilliance of Hezbollah getting severely castrated by the beeper thing. Syria collapses, as the Israelis use that to destroy existing air defenses and create a corridor through there to Iran. That was a big deal, and I pointed that out at the time. Now you have a very reduced capability from Hamas and Hezbollah, and the Iranian weapons program still a major threat. Not just nuc procurement, but a massive ballistic missile capability. Guess what? They've got a clear path to Tehran after decades of threatened and backed up murder. They've had scores of human assets inside Iran preparing for this moment for years, and the activated them, building drone launchers and other offensive weapons from within. Air defense eliminated, The timing was perfect, as was the execution. It is the dream scenario for the west, the middle east countries wanting to live in peace and anyone else who is sick and tired of the worst regime on earth. Very well said. The constant thing gnawing at me: in order to get to this point, the US and even Israel have gone all in on the Saudis as the lesser of two evils. (In reality, it appears the Trump believes there is nothing evil at all about them.) Evil or not, have we overestimated the stability of that regime? Has anyone taken a close look at the ridiculous projects they've been funding while the oil money continues to shower down on them? Granted, the Saudi feudal rulers may well continue in place for long while - maybe even a generation or even two - but when it all ends it won't end pretty.
Bray Wyatt Posted 6 hours ago Posted 6 hours ago Just now, Mikie2times said: It's right in front of your face. Are we supposed to believe that Netanyahu was not aware of this 60 day deal and that it was just a coincidence Israel attacked on day 61 with an operation that clearly took extensive time and planning? Perhaps long enough to date back to Trumps first term? Further do you think Netanyahu was not aware at how limited Iran would be in negotiating with Trump/US on this subject? It was a simple check mate from a smarter leader. Hell, he even pulled us into it. Of course he was aware, he probably had the attacked already planned, but gave their biggest ally a chance to negotiate peace and honored the deadline he gave. It not some conspiracy or well played thing he did. The attack was probably going to happen and Trump got wind and told him to hold off and let him try and get them to come to the table and avoid all of this. Just as likely a scenario as the one you gave. Iran didnt deal so the attack went ahead that was going to happen anyway. Trump probably used the missiles to help save Israeli and others lives, as they would have had to go in on the ground to take them facilities out and it would have cost everyone a lot. See I can do that game too, but the fact is we do not know what happened. But I get it, you have already decided orange man bad based on previous admittances on your part, so you predictably chose the path that fits that lens. 2
stevestojan Posted 6 hours ago Posted 6 hours ago Has anyone told these guys that cease means stop? No?
Mikie2times Posted 6 hours ago Posted 6 hours ago (edited) 24 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: Of course he was aware, he probably had the attacked already planned, but gave their biggest ally a chance to negotiate peace and honored the deadline he gave. It not some conspiracy or well played thing he did. The attack was probably going to happen and Trump got wind and told him to hold off and let him try and get them to come to the table and avoid all of this. Just as likely a scenario as the one you gave. Iran didnt deal so the attack went ahead that was going to happen anyway. Trump probably used the missiles to help save Israeli and others lives, as they would have had to go in on the ground to take them facilities out and it would have cost everyone a lot. See I can do that game too, but the fact is we do not know what happened. But I get it, you have already decided orange man bad based on previous admittances on your part, so you predictably chose the path that fits that lens. You're painting this like the US has no control over what Israel does. Yet for the entire existence of Israel, despite wanting to attack Iran for most of it, they didn't do so until now. All I had to do was use nearly 80 years of Israeli and Iran interactions to come to such a conclusion. So lets throw in your version for consideration, it still results in Israel thinking Trump is a weak, dumb, or both. No other outcomes. Your version means Israel held the strongest military power in the world hostage and forced our hand. Then even got us to get involved. That would be even more of a schooling than the version I laid out. Logic isn't your friend, friend. Edited 6 hours ago by Mikie2times
Bray Wyatt Posted 6 hours ago Posted 6 hours ago 3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said: You're painting this like the US has no control over what Israel does. Yet for the entire existence of Israel, despite wanting to attack Iran for most of it, they didn't do so until now. All I had to do was use nearly 80 years of Israeli and Iran interactions to come to such a conclusion. So lets throw in your version for consideration, it still results in Israel thinking Trump is a weak, dumb, or both. No other outcomes. Your version means Israel held the strongest military power in the world hostage and forced our hand. Then even got us to get involved. That would be even more of a schooling than the version I laid out. Logic isn't your friend, friend. We already went over the fact that Israel started attacking Iran under BIden. As others have pointed out, "Syria collapses, as the Israelis use that to destroy existing air defenses and create a corridor through there to Iran." That is the reason, not that Trump is weak or dumb. They didnt hold us hostage, they are their own entity and as history shows, Israel always strikes first in that region. They thought we were so weak and/or dumb that they needed our bombs to hit the facilities, how does that make any sense? And if we were so weak, why delay the attack? If we are so dumb why would they want our help? That doesnt make any sense. Wanting peace and less loss of life is not a weak or dumb stance to have. I thought that was something I agreed with the left on.
T master Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 1 hour ago, Homelander said: Interesting how May 2018 is missing from your timeline - almost like that part completely wrecks your argument. Clever omission… just not clever enough. Why would Iran give Biden a deal? Trump tore up the last one to score points with his base, proving US diplomacy has a four-year shelf life. And with Iran aligned with Russia, they were never going to hand Biden a win he could parade as a foreign policy comeback. This is where all the BS started ! Anyone that thought or thinks that Iran was in good faith going to abide by an agreement made with any country is a fool ! This country is as Thomas Sowell says in this all about martyrdom and if they die that is just a feather in their cap & Israel was the objective which was to destroy them at all cost . No so call promise with the US or anyone was going to stop them, if this attack hadn't happened in the end Iran would have made a nuke and bombed Israel, US & who never else stood in their way . And if then the US sent enough bombs to turn all the sand that Iran sets on into glass that would have been all for Allah which everyone would have had virgins and a big party . Obama's fantasy of a deal & Iran sticking with the deal laid out was nothing but that a fantasy and it funded the research for Iran to develop a nuke ...
Mikie2times Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 24 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: We already went over the fact that Israel started attacking Iran under BIden. As others have pointed out, "Syria collapses, as the Israelis use that to destroy existing air defenses and create a corridor through there to Iran." That is the reason, not that Trump is weak or dumb. They didnt hold us hostage, they are their own entity and as history shows, Israel always strikes first in that region. They thought we were so weak and/or dumb that they needed our bombs to hit the facilities, how does that make any sense? And if we were so weak, why delay the attack? If we are so dumb why would they want our help? That doesnt make any sense. Wanting peace and less loss of life is not a weak or dumb stance to have. I thought that was something I agreed with the left on. Israel has been fighting, based on your definition of fighting, since 1948. Never in that time have the defied the United States in having a direct military operation in Iran. What don't you understand about that?
sherpa Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 1 hour ago, Mikie2times said: So what will allow that to happen now? Regime is still in place. Pursuit of Nuclear capability will still happen. Region will still be engulfed in holy wars as it has for nearly its entire existence. What exactly was accomplished again? A temporary slowdown in Irans nuclear capability? The "regime" is in place in name only, which is not to say it doesn't have the ability to re-emerge. Scores of the power folks have been killed. The leader is in a bunker somewhere, an 86 year old cancer surviving lunatic who has lost countless supporters. This strike was immensely successful on so many levels. Of course they will try to continue their useless nuclear goals, but they've just lost their three major facilities, at least for some time. They have an estimated one half trillion dollars of spent cost in the program and in supporting their three major proxies, who have suddenly disappeared. They have been exposed as a useless military, unable to even respond in most basis terms to an invasion of their airspace and the destruction of their prized hundred billion dollar underground effort. They can evidently do nothing about it, except perhaps sleeper cells, which nobody know about. Remember last week when two people here expressed angst that they could close the Strait of Hormuz? One actually stated it cause a major recession. Remember who stated that was unlikely? That strike was a spotlight on the bullsttuff that is the Iranian "regime," and no matter what people on this forum think, that reality is not lost on Gulf states and others who feared them.
SCBills Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago (edited) Probably the biggest example of blind partisanship I’ve seen in recent memory. Democrats, aside from Fetterman, just whining for the sake of whining. Many Republicans would likely react the same way if it was a Democrat who pulled off what Trump just did. Who knows if the ceasefire holds, but the fact we took out Iran’s nukes and then Iran all but took it with some symbolic forewarned missiles and now we have a fragile ceasefire.. probably not even the most optimistic folks thought this would be the outcome (so far) Edited 5 hours ago by SCBills
Bray Wyatt Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 19 minutes ago, Mikie2times said: Israel has been fighting, based on your definition of fighting, since 1948. Never in that time have the defied the United States in having a direct military operation in Iran. What don't you understand about that? And what has changed since then? They were getting too close to actually having the ability to wipe Israel off the face of the earth with their nuclear program.
Mikie2times Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 21 minutes ago, sherpa said: The "regime" is in place in name only, which is not to say it doesn't have the ability to re-emerge. Scores of the power folks have been killed. The leader is in a bunker somewhere, an 86 year old cancer surviving lunatic who has lost countless supporters. This strike was immensely successful on so many levels. Of course they will try to continue their useless nuclear goals, but they've just lost their three major facilities, at least for some time. They have an estimated one half trillion dollars of spent cost in the program and in supporting their three major proxies, who have suddenly disappeared. They have been exposed as a useless military, unable to even respond in most basis terms to an invasion of their airspace and the destruction of their prized hundred billion dollar underground effort. They can evidently do nothing about it, except perhaps sleeper cells, which nobody know about. Remember last week when two people here expressed angst that they could close the Strait of Hormuz? One actually stated it cause a major recession. Remember who stated that was unlikely? That strike was a spotlight on the bullsttuff that is the Iranian "regime," and no matter what people on this forum think, that reality is not lost on Gulf states and others who feared them. If the Iranian people overthrow the regime I will become more bullish over these actions making a difference. Khomeini is prepping his son to take over. His internal network historically has been enough to hold back the Iranian people. While many are pro west, the old guard has been hard to make any progress with. Seeing Trump say today that he doesn't want a regime change is disappointing. I know why he said and I don't think he believes it, he wants stability, but still, disappointing. Certainly part of the cease fire agreement, it had to be. Regardless, can we trust Khomeini or Netanyahu? No. Not as far as you could throw them. What happens if the ceasefire doesn't hold? If it doesn't the real threats haven't even started. That was always the risk of handling things this way. It's the 1st quarter at this point. A lot of time to see what this ultimately results in. 9 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: And what has changed since then? They were getting too close to actually having the ability to wipe Israel off the face of the earth with their nuclear program. Said only the people doing the bombing. Iraq has WMD's right? No experts have said they were as close as what was presented.
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