More defense on Saturday, please, to finish the job, and take the final step

[Mikie2times]

44 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

 

1.  I think a team can expect to not be missing their starting (and best) cornerback and player in the secondary AND their starting safety.  Those are huge losses in a any defense, especially one clearly undermanned all year long, and now playing Mahomes and his three time Super Bowl champion team in their own home.  Bizarre that someone would think the head coach and quarterback of a team in that position would not feel more pressure.  Of course, they would. A duh, actually.

 

2.  The Bills getting to the Championship Game again and not winning it would be disappointing, and of course a failure to many concerned.  But it is not a massive failure, would likely only be to bashers and haters of McBeane, who try to turn almost every thread into a 'Fire the bum', thread.  Hard for them to see the forest through the trees, as their vision is so distorted.

 

3.  ...which is a nice segue into my response to your "They have never played good playoff defense."

 

Yes, they lost to the Chief in that playoff game, of course, even with an excellent defense that year. The Chiefs got the better of almost every defense they played that year and scored over 30 points nine times that season, winning the Super Bowl to cap it all off. But like so much of the McBeane bashing, just hyperbole and  throw away nonsense for anyone to say that Bills have never played good playoff defense--unless they only choose to watch Bills' losses. 

 

The Bills have definitely played good, some would say excellent, or even superb, playoff defense under this particular team. Just the weak before this game, they man handled the Patriots--the pats were never in the game.  And then they crushed the Ravens in the playoffs to an even greater degree, holding them to just 3 points.  And ditto for their win against the Steelers after the 2023 season, a 31-17 win.  And last year's beat down of the Broncos, who, after their initial score early in the game, were shutout, 31-7.  The word Never seems to mean something much different to you than to most people, and as defined in most dictionaries, I think. 

 

 

(I probably should have never said, as I did just a few posts ago, that I did not want this to turn into a 'Fire the coach!' (or GM) thread, as any attention keeps them going...)

 

 

 

People that defend the defense vs scrub quarterbacks just aren't seeing things clearly. We have played good playoff defense against Mac Jones, Mason Rudolph, and a few other back ups. Who cares? Then Lamar Jackson in the wind tunnel game where Josh also did nothing (because neither offense could). Again, WHO CARES?

 

We played a good first half against Baltimore last year. That is our crown jewel thus far.

 

The question mark for this team isn't can the defense be good or will it be good. Both are likely going to be the case. It is about things translating to the postseason. Can they also be good in the divisional round or later where they have nearly the worst EPA defense out of any team in football to make the divisional round since 2020. 

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Mister Defense]

40 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

People that defend the defense vs scrub quarterbacks just aren't seeing things clearly. We have played good playoff defense against Mac Jones, Mason Rudolph, and a few other back ups. Who cares? Then Lamar Jackson in the wind tunnel game where Josh also did nothing (because neither offense could). Again, WHO CARES?

 

We played a good first half against Baltimore last year. That is our crown jewel thus far.

 

 

???

 

I was just responding to what you had actually said, which was "They have never played good playoff defense."

 

You have now moved the goal posts in a dramatic manner in the new post above,  so changed your point in a fundamental manner.

 

I cannot read your mind, so just responded to what you actually said, believing that "They have never played good playoff defense" is what you actually meant.

 

Even in real life, on more important issues, when the other side just moves, even changes the goal posts, it is not a good sign for their argument.

 

 

[billsfan89]

The Bills defense is even in its lesser years still a better than average NFL defense. It has just come up short against KC (and a few other times) in the playoffs. Typically better offenses in the playoffs have given the Bills issues. What I hope the heavy defensive emphasis in free agency and the draft (mainly targeted towards the D-line and CB spots although safety had some moderate additions) is that it helps raise the defenses "ceiling" so to speak. The Bills haven't had that elite defense that's gonna take out top 10 (let alone top 5) offenses consistently. I think this year is gonna test the theory that maybe McD's defensive gameplan just doesn't work against elite teams in the playoffs. I think he has the talent on the defense to make it work. 

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

???

 

I was just responding to what you had actually said, which was "They have never played good playoff defense."

 

You have now moved the goal posts in a dramatic manner in the new post above,  so changed your point in a fundamental manner.

 

I cannot read your mind, so just responded to what you actually said, believing that "They have never played good playoff defense" is what you actually meant.

 

Even in real life, on more important issues, when the other side just moves, even changes the goal posts, it is not a good sign for their argument.

 

 

I thought it was a given that nobody cared how we did vs Mac Jones? How specific do you need things? This thread is about our defensive investment. That investment would never happen if those wild card games vs back ups meant anything. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Mikie2times

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

1.  I think a team can expect to not be missing their starting (and best) cornerback and player in the secondary AND their starting safety.  Those are huge losses in a any defense, especially one clearly undermanned all year long, and now playing Mahomes and his three time Super Bowl champion team in their own home.  Bizarre that someone would think the head coach and quarterback of a team in that position would not feel more pressure.  Of course, they would. A duh, actually.

 

2.  The Bills getting to the Championship Game again and not winning it would be disappointing, and of course a failure to many concerned.  But it is not a massive failure, would likely only be to bashers and haters of McBeane, who try to turn almost every thread into a 'Fire the bum', thread.  Hard for them to see the forest through the trees, as their vision is so distorted.

 

3.  ...which is a nice segue into my response to your "They have never played good playoff defense."

 

Yes, they lost to the Chief in that playoff game, of course, even with an excellent defense that year. The Chiefs got the better of almost every defense they played that year and scored over 30 points nine times that season, winning the Super Bowl to cap it all off. But like so much of the McBeane bashing, just hyperbole and  throw away nonsense for anyone to say that Bills have never played good playoff defense--unless they only choose to watch Bills' losses. 

 

The Bills have definitely played good, some would say excellent, or even superb, playoff defense under this particular team. Just the weak before this game, they man handled the Patriots--the pats were never in the game.  And then they crushed the Ravens in the playoffs to an even greater degree, holding them to just 3 points.  And ditto for their win against the Steelers after the 2023 season, a 31-17 win.  And last year's beat down of the Broncos, who, after their initial score early in the game, were shutout, 31-7.  The word Never seems to mean something much different to you than to most people, and as defined in most dictionaries, I think. 

 

 

(I probably should have never said, as I did just a few posts ago, that I did not want this to turn into a 'Fire the coach!' (or GM) thread, as any attention keeps them going...)

 

You gotta have a backup plan when the defense isn't stopping the offense.  It's akin to a MLB pitcher without his + stuff finding a way to win regardless.  

 

In the NFL, the backup plan is being able to out-score the opponent, which this regime doesn't think is necessary.  (Cue the scoring 30ppg regular season crowd). 

 

Both this HC and GM expect that all pistons will be firing on both sides of the ball in the biggest games of the year.  Even with a workaholic HC and no major weaknesses on that defense they'll run into good offenses who can out-duel it.  People should have seen that against Baltimore, where it took a +3 turnover advantage and a dropped 2 point conversion for Buffalo to barely hold on.  The following week when the injuries happened, Buffalo lacked the offensive firepower to overwhelm the Chiefs...because they don't invest there like their best/likely playoff opponents do.     

 

They're all-in on the strategy for 2025, although perhaps with some schematic wrinkles.  If it doesn't work and they bottom out in the Divisional/Championship game round again...then the current plan should be scrapped in favor of a Josh-centered team.  Because it'll have proven their plan is insufficient after 6 seasons doing it their preferred way. 

Edited 8 hours ago by BillsVet

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The irony is Reid was there a long time and never won (with good teams and a top 10 QB). He left and they won twice. In his second stop, he won 3 times. Maybe that’s McDermott? Belichick didn’t win at his first stop either. Let’s just say, last season’s result, repeats itself over and over and over. How many more KC playoff losses 32-29 would you accept? For me, I would have already been done. If this happens 8 more times, good? 5? 1? 0? I guess this is where the divide is for some. The results are good. They aren’t good enough. I wouldn’t continue letting years of Josh Allen’s prime tick off without a title (or change). I think that the Ravens should be in the same boat. The difference is Harbaugh has won one and they haven’t ended each year the same way. 

What about the years that they had the number 1 defense?

 

When should he be accountable? That’s what I am asking. If you don’t think it should be on the table, that’s fine. I’d ask, why? I think that you should win at least a Super Bowl with Josh Allen. The results vs. KC don’t give me much confidence that he can do it.

 

Agree completely about Harbaugh.  Can't believe him and Tomlin still have jobs.  Harbargh is living off his one win so does really that make him a better coach than McD?

 

Have to say looking at those defensive rankings, for three years the Bills had a top 5 defense, but to me doesn't really pass the eyeball test.  Did the defense ever really feel like a top 5 unit?  To me it didn't, think they were lucky in some games.   Even this past year they were ranked 11th, but that had a lot to do with all their turnovers which to me isn't very sustainable.   Seem to recall another year the Bills had a large turnover advantage too?? The year they were #1 was the 13 seconds game and gave up what over 30 points to KC.

 

As far as moving on from McD, great! lets do it who you going to hire that will be certain to win the Bills a SB?  To me that's the problem, statistically there's a much better chance the team will get worse with another coach simply because when you only lose 3 games all year, it's much easier to do worse than better.    If you're the Giants who've won 9 games in the past two seasons, it's easy to say, lets dump the coach as we likely will do better.  McVey won a SB, but overall has a worse record than McD so is he the answer?  Shanahan?  Belichick couldn't win without Brady and have to wonder to how much under the table stuff went on too over the years?  

[Buffalo ill]

I don't think people expect a good defense to hold every team to 10 or fewer points every playoff game.  At the same time a good defense doesn't require the offense to put up 30+ points per game in the playoffs.

[Kirby Jackson]

27 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

As far as moving on from McD, great! lets do it who you going to hire that will be certain to win the Bills a SB?  To me that's the problem, statistically there's a much better chance the team will get worse with another coach simply because when you only lose 3 games all year, it's much easier to do worse than better.    If you're the Giants who've won 9 games in the past two seasons, it's easy to say, lets dump the coach as we likely will do better.  McVey won a SB, but overall has a worse record than McD so is he the answer?  Shanahan?  Belichick couldn't win without Brady and have to wonder to how much under the table stuff went on too over the years?  

I guess that this is also where some of the divide is. I think the floor for this team is a division title and WC loss. If you or I was coaching they’d be 10-7 or 11-6 and win the AFCE. So, IMO, pretty much every single guy coaching anywhere in the NFL could accomplish that with Josh Allen and this roster. So for me, I don’t think “the bottom falling out” is possible. I’d probably hand the reigns to Joe Brady but could be talked into lots of different people. 

[Mister Defense]

5 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

You gotta have a backup plan when the defense isn't stopping the offense.  It's akin to a MLB pitcher without his + stuff finding a way to win regardless.  

 

In the NFL, the backup plan is being able to out-score the opponent, which this regime doesn't think is necessary.  (Cue the scoring 30ppg regular season crowd). 

 

Both this HC and GM expect that all pistons will be firing on both sides of the ball in the biggest games of the year.  Even with a workaholic HC and no major weaknesses on that defense they'll run into good offenses who can out-duel it.  People should have seen that against Baltimore, where it took a +3 turnover advantage and a dropped 2 point conversion for Buffalo to barely hold on.  The following week when the injuries happened, Buffalo lacked the offensive firepower to overwhelm the Chiefs...because they don't invest there like their best/likely playoff opponents do.     

 

They're all-in on the strategy for 2025, although perhaps with some schematic wrinkles.  If it doesn't work and they bottom out in the Divisional/Championship game round again...then the current plan should be scrapped in favor of a Josh-centered team.  Because it'll have proven their plan is insufficient after 6 seasons doing it their preferred way. 

 

1.  You say, " You gotta have a backup plan when the defense isn't stopping the offense.  It's akin to a MLB pitcher without his + stuff finding a way to win regardless.  And that “In the NFL, the backup plan is being able to out-score the opponent, which this regime doesn't think is necessary.  (Cue the scoring 30ppg regular season crowd).” 

 

You don't think the Bills have an offense that is capable of winning the big games, especially playoff games? To me, and likely most fans, they seem to be capable of scoring a lot of points, well, just because they did so last year and overall under McBeane.  But it was clearly the defense that was weaker, much weaker, last year and in need of an overhaul—not the best offense in the NFL

 

 I think all of the facts related to the offense last year, and in the last five years really undermine that your main point.  I am very surprised that you do not know that, understand that. The Bills are aware of how good the offense is, clearly, from any objective set of eyes, and also aware of the significant weaknesses of last year’s defense, particularly in the secondary and D-Lines.  So this off season they have gone hog wild adding the needed players to improve the weak areas, while also adding a few key pieces to the offense.

 

I think the Bills want a team capable of doing both at a high level, a team without any weaknesses.  I believe that is what they, and maybe all other NFL teams worth their salt are striving for--the best complimentary football they can have, with an offense making it easier on the defense, and visa versa.

 

Last year especially, clearly a transition year on defense, they did not have man power to create that kind of top level consistent defense. That is why I was calling for an almost all defense draft, with multiple players for the D-line and cornerback.  

 

I think it seems to be exactly what you would want--as I am assuming what you say above also relates to defense?--that when the offense is not firing on all cylinders they have a defense that can carry the load?  Since you said what you said about the offense needing to carry the day, hard to believe you would not think the same thing about the defense when the offense is not coming through.  Am I missing something there?

 

2.  You say, “In the NFL, the backup plan is being able to out-score the opponent, which this regime doesn't think is necessary…

And “Buffalo lacked the offensive firepower to overwhelm the Chiefs...because they don't invest there like their best/likely playoff opponents do.”

 

I know from your post, your direct comment about the 30 points a game, and the rest, that you don’t really bother with numbers or stats if they contradict this particular point you are making, so these are for the others who are reading (you should just skip them, as they are not relevant to you):

 

--The 2024 Bills scored more points last year that any other NFL team, from the beginning of the season to the end of the playoffs

 

--They scored more points than any Bills team ever

 

--They led the NFL in yards per point last year

 

--They were the first team in NFL history to have 30 rushing TDS and 30 passing TDS, finding the incredible balance that McDermott, and fans like me, have been wanting. 

 

--Last year’s team also had one of the best points per drive this century and NFL history.

 

--And I apologize beforehand, and they also scored 30 points 9 games in a row—and averaged over 30 points per game.

 

And this super charged, point scoring machine we all (except a few…) saw last year was not a new thing for the McBeane Bills, as I assume you are well aware. They have scored more points in the NFL over the last five years than any other team.

 

I mean, if the stats, the numbers above don’t disprove the points n your comments I included  on this matter, then it seems you may have just thrown all the logic, reason, out the window to make your point.  It is irrational, an understatement, to call a team out for not investing in its offense, for not caring if they have the firepower to overcome top opponents, when they were the best offense in the NFL last year, and the best in Bills history, which is saying a lot, and have scored more points in than any other team the last five years etcetera etcetera.

 

That would be like Ford going to the top salesman in the company, who sold more cars than anyone at Ford last year, in fact broke the all time company sales record last year, and who sold more cars than anyone at Ford for the last five years, and telling him he needed to get his priorities in order, and learn how to sell cars more successfully than he did last year, and in the last five years. And If not, his a*s is grass.

 

I cannot imagine anyone agreeing with what you say.  Both parts of your point are dead in the water almost as soon as you write them. As the complimentary football you call for does not seem to apply to the other side of the ball, the defense. And then you call this ‘regime’ out for its egregious neglect of the offense, the best in the NFL last year, the best in Bills history, and one breaking all kinds of  team and NFL records.

 

I hope that the Bills now neglect the defense in the same ways they have neglected the offense, I really do. And they seem to be doing just that.

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mister Defense

[Turbo44]

13 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

1.  You say, " You gotta have a backup plan when the defense isn't stopping the offense.  It's akin to a MLB pitcher without his + stuff finding a way to win regardless.  And that “In the NFL, the backup plan is being able to out-score the opponent, which this regime doesn't think is necessary.  (Cue the scoring 30ppg regular season crowd).” 

 

You don't think the Bills have an offense that is capable of winning the big games, especially playoff games? To me, and likely most fans, they seem to be capable of scoring a lot of points, well, just because they did so last year and overall under McBeane.  But it was clearly the defense that was weaker, much weaker, last year and in need of an overhaul—not the best offense in the NFL

 

 I think all of the facts related to the offense last year, and in the last five years really undermine that your main point.  I am very surprised that you do not know that, understand that. The Bills are aware of how good the offense is, clearly, from any objective set of eyes, and also aware of the significant weaknesses of last year’s defense, particularly in the secondary and D-Lines.  So this off season they have gone hog wild adding the needed players to improve the weak areas, while also adding a few key pieces to the offense.

 

I think the Bills want a team capable of doing both at a high level, a team without any weaknesses.  I believe that is what they, and maybe all other NFL teams worth their salt are striving for--the best complimentary football they can have, with an offense making it easier on the defense, and visa versa.

 

Last year especially, clearly a transition year on defense, they did not have man power to create that kind of top level consistent defense. That is why I was calling for an almost all defense draft, with multiple players for the D-line and cornerback.  

 

I think it seems to be exactly what you would want--as I am assuming what you say above also relates to defense?--that when the offense is not firing on all cylinders they have a defense that can carry the load?  Since you said what you said about the offense needing to carry the day, hard to believe you would not think the same thing about the defense when the offense is not coming through.  Am I missing something there?

 

2.  You say, “In the NFL, the backup plan is being able to out-score the opponent, which this regime doesn't think is necessary…

And “Buffalo lacked the offensive firepower to overwhelm the Chiefs...because they don't invest there like their best/likely playoff opponents do.”

 

I know from your post, your direct comment about the 30 points a game, and the rest, that you don’t really bother with numbers or stats if they contradict this particular point you are making, so these are for the others who are reading (you should just skip them, as they are not relevant to you):

 

--The 2024 Bills scored more points last year that any other NFL team, from the beginning of the season to the end of the playoffs

 

--They scored more points than any Bills team ever

 

--They led the NFL in yards per point last year

 

--They were the first team in NFL history to have 30 rushing TDS and 30 passing TDS, finding the incredible balance that McDermott, and fans like me, have been wanting. 

 

--Last year’s team also had one of the best points per drive this century and NFL history.

 

--And I apologize beforehand, and they also scored 30 points 9 games in a row—and averaged over 30 points per game.

 

And this super charged, point scoring machine we all (except a few…) saw last year was not a new thing for the McBeane Bills, as I assume you are well aware. They have scored more points in the NFL over the last five years than any other team.

 

I mean, if the stats, the numbers above don’t disprove the points n your comments I included  on this matter, then it seems you may have just thrown all the logic, reason, out the window to make your point.  It is irrational, an understatement, to call a team out for not investing in its offense, for not caring if they have the firepower to overcome top opponents, when they were the best offense in the NFL last year, and the best in Bills history, which is saying a lot, and have scored more points in than any other team the last five years etcetera etcetera.

 

That would be like Ford going to the top salesman in the company, who sold more cars than anyone ever did for Ford in a year, broke the company record for sales, in fact, and who sold more cars than anyone at Ford for the last five years, and telling him he needed to get his priorities in order, and learn how to sell cars more successfully than he did last year, and in the last five years. And If not, his a*s is grass.

 

I cannot imagine anyone agreeing with what you say.  Both parts of your point are dead in the water almost as soon as you write them. As the complimentary football you call for does not seem to apply to the other side of the ball, the defense. And then you call this ‘regime’ out for its egregious neglect of the offense, the best in the NFL last year, the best in Bills history, and one breaking all kinds of  team and NFL records.

 

I hope that the Bills now neglect the defense in the same ways they have neglected the offense, I really do. And they seem to be doing just that.

 

 

 

OMG it’s just so many words

[Mister Defense]

14 minutes ago, Turbo44 said:

OMG it’s just so many words

 

Well, true; thank you.

 

But keep in mind, that is exactly what they said about the Declaration of Independence too. 

 

And we all know how that turned out, guided our country for its first 248+ years. It was a good run by anyone's standards.

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mister Defense

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I guess that this is also where some of the divide is. I think the floor for this team is a division title and WC loss. If you or I was coaching they’d be 10-7 or 11-6 and win the AFCE. So, IMO, pretty much every single guy coaching anywhere in the NFL could accomplish that with Josh Allen and this roster. So for me, I don’t think “the bottom falling out” is possible. I’d probably hand the reigns to Joe Brady but could be talked into lots of different people. 

 

Agree not likely the bottom will fall out, but to me the reason to replace him is to improve, not to do the same.  Brady could be a great choice, but when you look at how many new coaches don't succeed, the odds aren't that good IMO.  I see changing coaches more as a case of rearranging the deck chairs.  In fact as you stated and I agreed with you on, most other coaches could do the same., that to me is the very definition of rearranging the deck chairs.  Could you somehow find the perfect arrangement, sure, but what are odds?