Free Safety options already on our roster... or do you really think it should be in the draft?

[Aussie Joe]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The free agent I can see them targeting is Kamren Curl of the Commanders. Former 7th rounder out of Arkansas, has played in a similar defense in Washington, is a genuine multi-functional safety who has played in the box and deep centre field which allows them to carry on doing a lot of the disguise they have done with Hyde and Poyer. 

 

Spotrac has him at $15.8m AAV. If he genuinely gets that much he is probably out of our price range, but I think it is a tad high. I can see him in that $12m range. Draft a guy in the 3rd or 4th, let Curl and Poyer play, bring that guy along so he steps in for 2025. 

Paying a Safety $12m with the other needs on this team would make me ill…

 

Doubt Beane does it though …

 

 

Edited January 25 by Aussie Joe

[Dunkirk Donski]

18 hours ago, noacls said:

If Iowa kid is there he is pick at 28. McD dream player

Only if he wrestled for Tom 

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

White will have to be moved on for Cap Space. He has an out in his contract this offseason that we have to exercise. We simply cannot pay him the contract we signed him to before his ACL and Achilles injuries back to back.

 

He's a 16.4m cap hit this season and a 16.7m cap hit next season. We can get out from under it this offseason and with the condition he's in and our cap situation, we really don't have a choice.

 

So that leaves Douglas and Benford as our Starters. Taron in the Nickel. Elam as a backup on the outside.  Dane and Cam Lewis are FA's - White and Neal will be cap casualties. We'll have to get some depth underneath Douglas, Benford, Johnson, and Elam as is. 

 

Safety will be fine. Hyde will probably retire and even if he doesn't, he won't be playing here. Poyer will probably be here another year to help bring along a Rookie in Round 2 or 3. Or we sign a guy they like who doesn't break the bank, being a Safety. The position will not "languish".

 

It'll be fine. But one things for sure, we won't be moving a CB. Makes no sense and there's no guarantee they can even play the position or even want to anyways.

 

Like any other position, we have a hole and we'll fill it through the Draft or FA.

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

[MrEpsYtown]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

 

I did think he was out, but I've kind of changed my mind. I do not think they are going to be willing to let him go until they know for sure that he can't play anymore. So I think they take the hit in 2024 and then if he's bad they cut him with a minimum dead cap in 2025.  

[BBFL]

20 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Douglas is a possibility. Packers flirted with the idea. Depends on can White play.

 

I think Po could move into Hyde’s role, they were interchangeable. Then sign Jeremy Chinn as that box safety.

 

 

Good call. If Chinn repeated the season prior I feel he’d have been out of the price range. He didn’t. Probably around the $9-12m range. 
 

Should have gone all out for Jessie Bates 3 last off season. 

43 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

Do you think he goes with an injury settlement?

 

The restructure is happening. 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Uh, yeah.  This is EXACTLY why he should be a safety.   Hyde and Poyer play all over field because they do all of what you said.  

 

Before Taron arrived, the Bills never thought of moving Hde or Poyer to slot corner.  Why not?  Because safety is a more important position.  

 

Have you ever seen a team draft a slot corner in the first round?  I don't think so.  But teams take safeties in the first round.  Why one and not the other?  Because safety is a more important position.

 

 

 

Look, what I like about the proposal is that Taron is one of the 2 or 3 best players on the D right now and it ensures that he's always on the field.  The problem is as I see it is that from what I understand from others who know a heckuva lot more than I do about football, Taron Johnson play specifically at slot corner has been absolutely critical to McDermott's D.  And maybe moreso than the Safeties.

 

So if McDermott's D requires a high level nickel CB, that creates the problem I was talking about in the OP in terms of creating one hole while filling another.

 

That said, if McDermott were to come into next season with some flexibility to change his Defense and Dorian Williams can make a year 1 to year 2 leap the same way Terrell Bernard did and the idea was just to "put your best 11 on the field," then maybe Taron shifts to Safety and McDermott shifts to more of a base Defense with 3 LBs since all 3 of those LBs would be athletic freaks with coverage ability.

 

I just don't think they're going to move Taron, though.

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I put my list elsewhere earlier in the week but basically at this stage I have it Harrison, Odunze, Nabers tier 1. Then Legette, Franklin, Thomas tier 2. Then Worthy, Mitchell, Coleman tier 3.

 

Where is your list?

[transplantbillsfan]

12 minutes ago, BBFL said:

Do you think he goes with an injury settlement?

 

The restructure is happening. 

 

Yes, restructure is almost certain.

 

No, I don't think he goes with an injury settlement.

[BBFL]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Yes, restructure is almost certain.

 

No, I don't think he goes with an injury settlement.

That’s where I’m leaning at too. Especially giving it negates a load of money for him instead of restructuring. 
 

That is the only option. No one is trading something of worth for him after 3 years of significant injuries… absolute pipe dream. 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Where is your list?

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/252784-bills-draft-rd-1-pick-28/?do=findComment&comment=8907725

[BillsFanForever19]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

 

I just don't see how a paycut would happen that would make sense for us and White would be okay with. I mean he'd pretty much have to rip up his contract and be paid like a reserve for it to make any sense.

 

If White were a FA, he'd be only offered incentive laden prove it deals. He never fully returned to form following the ACL. He had one game where he looked to be close to his old self. Then the Achilles happened. That's two back to back injuries that causes players to lose a step. And he'll be almost 30 when he returns.

 

I'm not a capologist, but I don't think there's a restructure on his massive deal that can be done that would be worth the risk and the reward. You don't want to bench an ascending young talent like Benford, who is the present and future on one side. And we didn't make the move for Douglas to bench him either. He was traded as White's replacement, in my opinion.

 

They're our Starters going forward. Douglas will most likely get an extension this offseason. Then you still have Taron Johnson as the Nickel and Kaiir Elam, who showed something against Pittsburgh after being injured all year. Even he'll be a reserve. 

 

Our starting CB's are set and we have a solid reserve that we invested a 1st in. White is a complete and total unknown at this point and is being paid like a Top Starting CB. If you remove emotion from the equation - it's really clear. There's a reason Spotrac and capologist has releasing Tre White as one of the first things we'll do.

 

The out in his contract is now. And we have to get out from under it now. Maybe he comes back under an incentive laden deal after he sees the market he has is just that. But we have to move on with an injury settlement and take that money and get a TRUE Safety or one of the many other positions we need a starter at.

 

You're not risking he can't return to form and being stuck paying good money for a position we're already set at, when money is tight and we have a number of positions that aren't set. It's a no brainer. Anyone who says otherwise is just thinking too emotionally.

Edited January 26 by BillsFanForever19

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I just don't see how a paycut would happen that would make sense for us and White would be okay with. I mean he'd pretty much have to rip up his contract and be paid like a reserve for it to make any sense.

 

If White were a FA, he'd be only offered incentive laden prove it deals. He never fully returned to form following the ACL. He had one game where he looked to be close to his old self. Then the Achilles happened. That's two back to back injuries that causes players to lose a step. And he'll be almost 30 when he returns.

 

I'm not a capologist, but I don't think there's a restructure on his massive deal that can be done that would be worth the risk and the reward. You don't want to bench an ascending young talent like Benford, who is the present and future on one side. And we didn't make the move for Douglas to bench him either. He was traded as White's replacement, in my opinion.

 

They're our Starters going forward. Douglas will most likely get an extension this offseason. Then you still have Taron Johnson as the Nickel and Kaiir Elam, who showed something against Pittsburgh after being injured all year. Even he'll be a reserve. 

 

Our starting CB's are set and we have a solid reserve that we invested a 1st in. White is a complete and total unknown at this point and is being paid like a Top Starting CB. If you remove emotion from the equation - it's really clear. There's a reason Spotrac and capologist has releasing Tre White as one of the first things we'll do.

 

The out in his contract is now. And we have to get out from under it now. Maybe he comes back under an incentive laden deal after he sees the market he has is just that. But we have to move on with an injury settlement and take that money and get a TRUE Safety or one of the many other positions we need a starter at.

 

You're not risking he can't return to form and being stuck paying good money for a position we're already set at, when money is tight and we have a number of positions that aren't set. It's a no brainer. Anyone who says otherwise is just thinking too emotionally.

 

Sorry man... emotion is almost undoubtedly part of the equation with Tre.

 

1st draft pick by McDermott. Team leader. Loved by teammates.

 

Emotion is part of the equation because of what he's meant to this franchise.

 

As for your whole dialogue about players not restructuring deals to take pay cuts. Mitch Morse did.

[BillsFanForever19]

14 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Sorry man... emotion is almost undoubtedly part of the equation with Tre.

 

1st draft pick by McDermott. Team leader. Loved by teammates.

 

Emotion is part of the equation because of what he's meant to this franchise.

 

As for your whole dialogue about players not restructuring deals to take pay cuts. Mitch Morse did.

 

Incorrect. Simply being McDermott's first Draft pick and being liked are not reasons to keep a guy in the situation we're in. This is a business. It will be emotional to do it, but you have to. Business comes before personal.

 

If we were in a better position financially or roster wise, maybe we could do a bit of a paycut and risk losing some money. But not only do we not have the money, we need money AND we're in a bad spot roster wise at a lot of different positions.

 

But we are set at CB. So much so that you're pontificating moving someone to Safety. That's not how it's going to work. The guy with the out in his contract is moved out and we use that money this year and next year to get starters, like Safety, where we have holes.

 

As for the restructure, you can only restructure so much. Short of ripping up his contract completely, we can't afford to pay him even half of what he's owed. Logically, it doesn't even make sense. For the uncertainty he provides and when his role on the team, given that uncertainty, is simply a reserve. Others have restructured, but not to the extent that it would take for him staying to feasibly work.

 

White is an unknown commodity at this point. A player who never truly returned to form after the ACL, is now coming off an Achilles tear, and will be almost 30 - having played only 10 games in 2 calendar years by the time he returns. Someone who would have to sign a prove it deal, if he were on the market. The difference between what his contract is now and what his contract should be is too big of a gap for a simple restructure. And the kind of pay cut that would make any sense would be a slap in the face.

 

In the position we're in, we can't afford to be emotional. Part of being a GM is making the difficult decisions. Emotionally, it's tough. But when it comes to business, which this is, we don't have a choice.

 

Everyone who's reviewed our cap situation and come up with what we need to do has Tre White being released. The only one's who say he should stay are fans like yourself who don't want to see him go because of warm fuzzies. That's not how the NFL works.

 

Teammates, coaches, fans, and management loved Jerry Hughes too. Micah Hyde was McDermott's first big signing and has been here just as long as Tre. He won't be here either. Tough decisions just have to be made sometimes.

Edited January 26 by BillsFanForever19

[JerseyBills]

Why convert an elite outside CB to S??

Just makes no sense

[philholbroo]

kyle dugger

xavier mckinnie

 

[transplantbillsfan]

13 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Why convert an elite outside CB to S??

Just makes no sense

 

You talking about Douglas or Benford?  I don't think Benford is an elite outside CB.

 

And it's not like it would be the first time in the NFL a good to elite CB converted to Safety.  See Ronnie Lott, Devin McCourty, and Charles & Rod Woodson (no relation 😛 )

[JerseyBills]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You talking about Douglas or Benford?  I don't think Benford is an elite outside CB.

 

And it's not like it would be the first time in the NFL a good to elite CB converted to Safety.  See Ronnie Lott, Devin McCourty, and Charles & Rod Woodson (no relation 😛 )

Was referring to Douglas but I think Benford is above average, wouldn't mind seeing Elam try just to get him on the field..

You're right but wasn't that when they were 30+?

[Shaw66]

On 1/25/2024 at 2:53 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Look, what I like about the proposal is that Taron is one of the 2 or 3 best players on the D right now and it ensures that he's always on the field.  The problem is as I see it is that from what I understand from others who know a heckuva lot more than I do about football, Taron Johnson play specifically at slot corner has been absolutely critical to McDermott's D.  And maybe moreso than the Safeties.

 

So if McDermott's D requires a high level nickel CB, that creates the problem I was talking about in the OP in terms of creating one hole while filling another.

 

That said, if McDermott were to come into next season with some flexibility to change his Defense and Dorian Williams can make a year 1 to year 2 leap the same way Terrell Bernard did and the idea was just to "put your best 11 on the field," then maybe Taron shifts to Safety and McDermott shifts to more of a base Defense with 3 LBs since all 3 of those LBs would be athletic freaks with coverage ability.

 

I just don't think they're going to move Taron, though.

 

 

I just saw this.  Good stuff.  Thanks. 

 

I'm not predicting Taron will move.  I was only saying he should be on the list. 

 

My guess, however, is that McDermott thinks he can fill the slot corner role more easily than the safety role.  First, it's important to remember that they need two safeties, probably one this year and one next year.  Rapp is the only safety on the team currently who might fill one of the spots, and I'm not sure Rapp is the guy.  Maybe.   

 

The fact that they need two means the team will be changing, which we all knew.  Now, there's no doubt that Johnson's play has been critical to the D, but there's similarly no doubt that the safeties are critical.  I think the safeties are more important, based simply on the fact that the position is harder to fill.   Altho the position is evolving, most teams still have their third best corner at the slot corner position.  As you say, Williams might play there.   If you had Williams and Johnson on the field, when the situation demanded Williams would take the tight end and Johnson would take the slot guy.   

 

I don't, for example, see why people see Benford as a safety.   If I'm moving him, I'm moving HIM to slot corner.   It's much less of a transition for him.  

 

As I said, you don't see teams taking a slot corner in the first round of the draft.   Cover corners, and safeties, yes, slot corners no.   Yes, McDermott has been wedded to the slot corner in his defense, but that's because, I think, it was personnel driven.   The Bills had the safeties covered, Johnson's not a shut-down corner type.   It just turned out that he played so well that the Bills could afford to leave him on the field when other teams would have gone 4-3.   When the Bills get weaker at safety, McDermott's going to change his philosophy.  He's going to do what he always does, which is to put the best TEAM on the field and adjust the defense accordingly.  

 

The guy on the team who is best able to move from his current position is not White, not Benford, not Elam, and the safety is not going to be Neal, or Lewis, or Hamlin.   As I said, maybe Rapp.   The guy who is best able to move is Johnson. JMO

21 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You talking about Douglas or Benford?  I don't think Benford is an elite outside CB.

 

And it's not like it would be the first time in the NFL a good to elite CB converted to Safety.  See Ronnie Lott, Devin McCourty, and Charles & Rod Woodson (no relation 😛 )

I'd say Benford is a near-elite corner in McDermott's system.  He's excellent playing that scheme.   He's a natural.  That's why he walked into a starting position as a rookie.  

 

Elite cover corner?   No.  He's an outstanding #2 corner.  The plan always was White would be the elite guy until Elam took over.   

[BillsFanForever19]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just saw this.  Good stuff.  Thanks. 

 

I'm not predicting Taron will move.  I was only saying he should be on the list. 

 

My guess, however, is that McDermott thinks he can fill the slot corner role more easily than the safety role.  First, it's important to remember that they need two safeties, probably one this year and one next year.  Rapp is the only safety on the team currently who might fill one of the spots, and I'm not sure Rapp is the guy.  Maybe.   

 

The fact that they need two means the team will be changing, which we all knew.  Now, there's no doubt that Johnson's play has been critical to the D, but there's similarly no doubt that the safeties are critical.  I think the safeties are more important, based simply on the fact that the position is harder to fill.   Altho the position is evolving, most teams still have their third best corner at the slot corner position.  As you say, Williams might play there.   If you had Williams and Johnson on the field, when the situation demanded Williams would take the tight end and Johnson would take the slot guy.   

 

I don't, for example, see why people see Benford as a safety.   If I'm moving him, I'm moving HIM to slot corner.   It's much less of a transition for him.  

 

As I said, you don't see teams taking a slot corner in the first round of the draft.   Cover corners, and safeties, yes, slot corners no.   Yes, McDermott has been wedded to the slot corner in his defense, but that's because, I think, it was personnel driven.   The Bills had the safeties covered, Johnson's not a shut-down corner type.   It just turned out that he played so well that the Bills could afford to leave him on the field when other teams would have gone 4-3.   When the Bills get weaker at safety, McDermott's going to change his philosophy.  He's going to do what he always does, which is to put the best TEAM on the field and adjust the defense accordingly.  

 

The guy on the team who is best able to move from his current position is not White, not Benford, not Elam, and the safety is not going to be Neal, or Lewis, or Hamlin.   As I said, maybe Rapp.   The guy who is best able to move is Johnson. JMO

 

Rapp is a Free Agent. So that would take re-signing him. Which I think is a real possibility. I don't see him breaking the bank and he falls in line with the type of player we can afford, given the amount of money we'll have when we dig ourselves out of 43.6m over the cap, and the amount of holes we have to fill. Plus, he has a year under McDermott's system already and at times it felt like we were in better shape with Poyer and Rapp then we were with Poyer and Hyde last year.

 

Taron, like Douglas and Benford, isn't even a remote consideration to be moved. You don't take an All Pro at one position and move them to another. 

 

I'm honestly surprised it's even as close as 62-31 in favor of getting a True Safety over moving someone. No one is going to be moved. We'll draft someone to replace Hyde or sign a true Safety in FA.

 

Cornerbacks don't get moved to Safety unless they're an aging absolute elite CB with the skills to translate like a Patrick Peterson or Troy Vincent, to extend their career. Or a CB who's played Safety before and was Drafted for versatility. You don't take young (especially young and performing well) CB's and just switch them to Safety. That's not how it works and that's 1000% not going to happen here.

[transplantbillsfan]

26 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Was referring to Douglas but I think Benford is above average, wouldn't mind seeing Elam try just to get him on the field..

You're right but wasn't that when they were 30+?

 

Rasul Douglas will be 29 when we kick off next season.

 

What if Elam could finally grasp the CB position enough this offseason to start opposite Benford while simultaneously locking in a starting Free Safety for the next half decade?  We could also give Douglas an Extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money.

[BillsFanForever19]

9 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Rasul Douglas will be 29 when we kick off next season.

 

What if Elam could finally grasp the CB position enough this offseason to start opposite Benford while simultaneously locking in a starting Free Safety for the next half decade?  We could also give Douglas an Extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money.

 

My God - this just gets more and more ridiculous.

 

Douglas is our CB1. He was playing at a top PFF level amongst all CB's before his injury. 

 

Not only are you suggesting moving our CB1 to Safety to start Kaiir Elam at CB instead - you're suggesting he would then choose to sign a contract for Safety money instead of CB money?

 

Why would he do that? He and his agent would laugh in our faces, play out his year with us, and go somewhere else and cash in as one of the top CB's on the market next season.

[JerseyBills]

5 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Rasul Douglas will be 29 when we kick off next season.

 

What if Elam could finally grasp the CB position enough this offseason to start opposite Benford while simultaneously locking in a starting Free Safety for the next half decade?  We could also give Douglas an Extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money.

Ya I guess if he was as good at S as CB and Elam was great at CB it wouldn't matter who was playing where

[transplantbillsfan]

26 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

My God - this just gets more and more ridiculous.

 

Douglas is our CB1. He was playing at a top PFF level amongst all CB's before his injury. 

 

Not only are you suggesting moving our CB1 to Safety to start Kaiir Elam at CB instead - you're suggesting he would then choose to sign a contract for Safety money instead of CB money?

 

Why would he do that? He and his agent would laugh in our faces, play out his year with us, and go somewhere else and cash in as one of the top CB's on the market next season.

 

Wait a minute... it's ridiculous to suggest our 1st round draft pick at CB from 2 years ago should be a starter at CB?????

[BillsFanForever19]

30 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Wait a minute... it's ridiculous to suggest our 1st round draft pick at CB from 2 years ago should be a starter at CB?????

 

It's ridiculous to think you take the better performing CB and move them to Safety for the lesser performing CB. Safety is the lesser position and is easier and cheaper to replace. And Elam wasn't even the 3rd Outside CB on this team. So he's going to go from Outside CB4 to CB1 or CB2 at the cost of moving our best CB? Never.

 

And it's INSANELY ridiculous to think Douglas would not only be open to that, but then would choose to sign an extension paying him less money to do so. You do understand we can't just make guys sign whatever contract we want, right?

 

He's got one year on his deal and is a Top CB in this league. In no way, shape, or form is he going to choose to take an "extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money". Why would he cost himself money? He's either going to be extended as one of our starting CB's this offseason (extremely likely) or he's going to get paid to do that elsewhere next season.

Edited January 26 by BillsFanForever19

[transplantbillsfan]

44 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Ya I guess if he was as good at S as CB and Elam was great at CB it wouldn't matter who was playing where

 

Safety is a critically important void this team has to fill.  It's super important to McDermott's D.

 

The team has a lot of difficult choices to make this offseason and will need to get creative in order to stay in place or keep moving forward.

 

That's reality.

 

CB is our most stacked position on paper under contract right now, other than OL.

 

Converting a CB to Safety is not some outlandish suggestion.  It's been done successfully on many occasions in the NFL.  

 

I'd also point out that Beane and McDermott haven't given up on Elam and both are on record over the years that it often takes draft picks until year 3 to figure things out.  They've said that 3rd year is kinda the make or break year for draft picks and that the first 2 years aren't fair to use as strict judgments on that player as a bust.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Safety is a critically important void this team has to fill.  It's super important to McDermott's D.

 

The team has a lot of difficult choices to make this offseason and will need to get creative in order to stay in place or keep moving forward.

 

That's reality.

 

CB is our most stacked position on paper under contract right now, other than OL.

 

Converting a CB to Safety is not some outlandish suggestion.  It's been done successfully on many occasions in the NFL.  

 

I'd also point out that Beane and McDermott haven't given up on Elam and both are on record over the years that it often takes draft picks until year 3 to figure things out.  They've said that 3rd year is kinda the make or break year for draft picks and that the first 2 years aren't fair to use as strict judgments on that player as a bust.

 

Yeah, it really is. The amount of mental gymnastics you're doing when it's as simple as Drafting or signing a Safety is incredible. 

 

You're right, we are stacked at CB. But we need a starting WR (plus at least 2 more for rotation and depth), a starting DE (plus 1-2 more for rotation), a starting DT (plus 2-3 more for rotation), and at least 1 starting Safety, possibly 2 (and another 1-2 for depth). All the while being ~44 million over the cap and one of our many CB's having an out in their contract to save a ton of money over the next two years.

 

The answer isn't move a CB to Safety because you have warm fuzzies. One of those CB's has an out in their contract, put in for a reason - in the event we're in bad shape roster wise, cap wise, and in case of fall off and injury - of which all have occurred.

 

The answer is simple. Move on from one CB and use that money this year and next year to address the multitude of positions where we're not only not stacked - we need starters. We can move on from one CB and still be in very good shape there.

 

And moving CB's to Safety isn't something that happens all the time like you think. It only happens if a guy is a tweener with experience at both positions at the College and/or Pro level. Or they're elite aging CB's with the tools to transition like a Patrick Peterson or Troy Vincent. That's not the situation here.

 

And even if it were as likely as you'd think it is that we'd just move a guy - it would be a project. You don't just move a CB to Safety, who's not played the position at the Pro Level, and say "okay, we're good there". It's a total projection. We'd still need to bring in a True Safety as insurance in the event that it wouldn't work. So knowing that we have to sign a guy anyways - this project would just cost us even more money by having to sign insurance and keeping on a CB that we could save money moving on from.

 

I'm honestly shocked it's even as close as 65 against, 34 for on your poll. It just makes zero sense any way you slice it.

Edited January 27 by BillsFanForever19

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The answer is simple. Move on from one CB and use that money this year and next year to address the multitude of positions where we're not only stacked - we need starters. We can move on from one CB and still be in very good shape there.

Yep this is the most likely outcome. Either Tre or Douglas are gone imo and they will reallocate that money. 

[Aussie Joe]

17 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Yep this is the most likely outcome. Either Tre or Douglas are gone imo and they will reallocate that money. 

Why do think they move on from Douglas ? They just traded a 3rd for him mid season and he was their best CB after he got here … he was disappointing in the playoff loss but he was playing through injury …

 

Extend him and save $6m on his cap hit …it’s really a no brainer for Beane provided Douglas agrees 

Edited January 27 by Aussie Joe

[BillsFanForever19]

8 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Why do think they move on from Douglas ? They just traded a 3rd for him mid season and he was their best CB after he got here … he was disappointing in the playoff loss but he was playing through injury …

 

Extend him and save $6m on his cap hit …it’s really a no brainer for Beane provided Douglas agrees 

 

Agreed. I'm pretty sure when we traded for Douglas, we knew then that he'd be replacing White not just for last year - but completely, provided that he performed well in our scheme. And he definitely did. He'll be extended, unless he and his agent want to test the market first. Here's hoping they don't want to.

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Agreed. I'm pretty sure when we traded for Douglas, we knew then that he'd be replacing White not just for last year - but completely, provided that he performed well in our scheme. And he definitely did. He'll be extended, unless he and his agent want to test the market first. Here's hoping they don't want to.

I really dont know what more he could have done the second half of the season …

 

I’m actually more concerned  that his play he showed here will make him want to test the market and he could force his way out if he has visions of getting $12m a year from someone and doesn’t want to  agree an extension …they would have to cut him then most likely …

 

Hopefully given his age he signs a new deal this offseason at say 3 years $24m with an out after year 2 if he falls off a cliff …

 

He is likely the CB1 next year … and with all the other issues with this team … they don’t need another one…

[wppete]

Ideally Kair Elam has a breakout in OTAs and camp and we move Benford to Safety. Think he could be an amazing Safety. 

[MrEpsYtown]

40 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Why do think they move on from Douglas ? They just traded a 3rd for him mid season and he was their best CB after he got here … he was disappointing in the playoff loss but he was playing through injury …

 

Extend him and save $6m on his cap hit …it’s really a no brainer for Beane provided Douglas agrees 

I just don’t think they will keep both. If Tre’s rehab is going well, I think the would move on from Douglas, maybe a trade, but he has no dead money on his deal. It’s like 9 million in savings. I think he was a rental to try to get to the super bowl this year. 
 

They should extend him 100%. I loved the trade and the fit, I just would be shocked if they keep both guys. That is a lot of money poured into a position where they still have a competent starter in Benford. 
 

It would be awesome to see White-Douglas on the field together. 

Edited January 27 by MrEpsYtown

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just don’t think they will keep both. If Tre’s rehab is going well, I think the would move on from Douglas, maybe a trade, but he has no dead money on his deal. It’s like 9 million in savings. I think he was a rental to try to get to the super bowl this year. 
 

They should extend him 100%. I loved the trade and the fit, I just would be shocked if they keep both guys. That is a lot of money poured into a position where they still have a competent starter in Benford. 
 

It would be awesome to see White-Douglas on the field together. 

Ok…I think if it’s one or the other then I would go Douglas ..

 

That third round pick they gave up  is not a frivolous investment at this particular time …and they need  a better return then half a season…

 

As mentioned , the $9m savings can become $6m with an extension… normally I’m not excited about extending 30 yr old CBs … but I’ll make an exception given his play he showed here …

 

I think Tre could likely be gone …. I have concerns about how he recovered from his first injury …and how long it will take him to get over this one … 

 

Douglas And Benford will be the CB starters next year if Douglas is extended …

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I’m sure posted already but Bucky Brooks mock draft 1.0 had DB Cooper DeJean (Iowa) to Buffalo. 

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Ok…I think if it’s one or the other then I would go Douglas ..

 

That third round pick they gave up  is not a frivolous investment at this particular time …and they need  a better return then half a season…

 

As mentioned , the $9m savings can become $6m with an extension… normally I’m not excited about extending 30 yr old CBs … but I’ll make an exception given his play he showed here …

 

I think Tre could likely be gone …. I have concerns about how he recovered from his first injury …and how long it will take him to get over this one … 

 

Douglas And Benford will be the CB starters next year if Douglas is extended …

 

We can get out from under Douglas without paying anything more. But he won't save us money this year and next year like Tre will. He's also not coming off an ACL Tear and an Achilles rupture. 

 

We won't be keeping both. We're not going to take a young ascending CB like Benford and make him CB3, as well as push Elam back to CB4. Tre won't be ready to start the season and he can't be counted on as anything but a reserve with limited reps when he does. And his contract pays him like a Top CB in the league.

 

As I've said and anyone who looks at our cap situation and the contracts we have said - it's a no brainer. Tre is gone.

 

Even Beane when he was asked about Tre's future started with "that's a good question" and not an unequivocal "he'll be here". Which is about as damning as Beane gets.

Edited January 27 by BillsFanForever19

[below]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:39 PM, Shaw66 said:

McDermott's defense us driven by the safeties, not the nickel corner.  Safety is the most important position on the defense. When McBeane arrived, did they sign a free agent nickel corner?  No, they signed two safeties.  

 

You're kidding right.

 

On any NFL roster safety is one of the most replaceable positions.

 

That's why we essentially let Poyer walk last season. Fortunately he couldn't find a better deal.

 

They signed 2 safeties in 2017 because good safeties are readily available in FA.

 

If safety was the most important position we wouldn't be paying more $ to Miller. Or White. Or Douglas. Or Floyd. Or Oliver. Or Jones. Or Milano. Etc.

[below]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Agreed. I'm pretty sure when we traded for Douglas, we knew then that he'd be replacing White not just for last year - but completely, provided that he performed well in our scheme. And he definitely did. He'll be extended, unless he and his agent want to test the market first. Here's hoping they don't want to.

 

This 100%.

 

Surely they could have acquired a rental CB but they intentionally gave up higher compensation to get Douglas who has an additional year under contract.

 

It's very sad but Tre is just too big a long shot to ever return to previous form.

[below]

On 1/25/2024 at 2:06 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

That's part of the reason for the proposal.

 

We have 4 potential (3 for sure when healthy) high calibre starting CBs on the roster already. Do you really want to see 1 or 2 high quality CBs on the bench while our Safety position languishes?

 

 

This isn't Madden. It's real life.

 

Teams don't just willy nilly switch CBs to S. It pretty much never happens except when you get a VERY OLD formerly elite CB like Rod Woodson/Troy Vincent types extending their careers.

 

And one of the biggest reasons surely is CBs DO NOT WANT TO change positions where they'll make less money and likely be less effective.

 

Why on earth would Benford or Douglas want to risk their careers to switch positions and almost certainly lose out on millions of dollars?

On 1/24/2024 at 6:15 PM, Billzgobowlin said:

I think a must resign is Dane Jackson.  He has been crucial when our starting CBs go down with injuries.  He makes the defense work.  He is in stellar but is solid.  With that being said we need to look around the league for a Hyde type signing that is underrated but cheap.  I think a Rapp type signing

 

Dane is very far from a must re-sign. In a perfect world, sure. But not gonna be able to keep him and in the end he is replaceable.

 

He replaced Levi Wallace, after all.

[BillsFanForever19]

19 minutes ago, below said:

 

This isn't Madden. It's real life.

 

Teams don't just willy nilly switch CBs to S. It pretty much never happens except when you get a VERY OLD formerly elite CB like Rod Woodson/Troy Vincent types extending their careers.

 

And one of the biggest reasons surely is CBs DO NOT WANT TO change positions where they'll make less money and likely be less effective.

 

Why on earth would Benford or Douglas want to risk their careers to switch positions and almost certainly lose out on millions of dollars?

 

 

Edited January 27 by BillsFanForever19

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:20 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

I get it... there are a couple Safety threads right now.  If mods want to merge with this that one, that's fine.  I just think that thread is bringing up the only player who really won't be an option to convert to Free Safety, though I'll include him in the options in the poll.

 

The way I see it, the Bills might want to get a little creative this offseason with personnell and not simply replace all players that leave the roster with a new player they have to sign or draft.  Yes, the Bills have 10 draft picks.  But let's be realistic, if even half of our upcoming draft become significant contributors next season, that draft is a Homerun.  And I'd say there's almost no shot of finding half (5) of that draft becoming immediate or even in season starters.

 

So.... Buffalo needs to look long at hard at replacing UFAs we're going to lose to FA or retirement with roster replacements.

 

The obvious ones are the guys who play the same position.  Let's hope Shorter or Shavers can replace Sherfield's role as a depth WR/Special Teams player.  And if the Bills choose to cut Harty (possible to likely) for the CAP savings, let's hope Hamler or Isabella can replace him.  I know both of those guys are signed to Futures contracts... I believe that means that next year they're basically on a one year vet minimum salary... but that was with just a relatively quick google search if anyone wants to correct me.

 

As far as WRs go, I think if those things can happen, our offense will be pretty well set for next year when we draft 1 or 2 WRs with 1 of them likely being a 1st or 2nd round guy and an expected starter opposite Diggs.

 

Sorry for the tangent...  all that is to say that the secondary is the most complicated Unit on the team going into next season.

 

Safeties under contract next year right now are Poyer and Hamlin.  That's it.  I do think that Cam Lewis will be resigned at the vet minimum because the team loves him as depth across all positions in the secondary and he has great special teams ability.

 

Hyde's retiring.  I think we can all agree.

 

The team arguably has 4 starting CBs in White, Douglass, Benford and Elam.  Yes, I realize big question marks hover over Elam and White, but they have starting CB talent.  I think everyone would agree.  And I know Dane Jackson is a UFA who likely won't be back, but I'm going to factor him into this overall equation because, like Lewis, I think he's another player the team (justifiably) loves as a depth piece.

 

So... as it currently is, here's our secondary with the bolded guys as rostered guys (when healthy)... otherwise, practice squad guys:

 

CB- Tre White

CB- Rasul Douglas

CB- Kaiir Elam

CB- Christian Benford

CB- Taron Johnson

CB- Siran Neal

CB- Kyron Brown

CB- Ja'Marcus Ingram

 

S- Jordan Poyer

S- Damar Hamlin

S- ??????????

S- ??????????

S- ??????????

 

I think if we did absolutely nothing at the CB position in the offseason, we'll be good at that position in terms of both starters and depth.  Agree? I understand the White injury is concerning, but on the plus side, he got hurt in early October.  So, we'll see.  Even if White is out, I've heard so much praise for Ingram from the film buffs like Joe Marino and Bruce Nolan that I wonder if he might be the catalyst for trying the move I'm about to propose.

 

We might end up drafting a Safety early, but with the void we have going into this offseason at DT (only Oliver under contract) and the need for a true #2 or even #1b WR, I think Safety comes in the middle rounds.

 

So... I think our starting Free Safety for next year is already on our roster or was already on our roster.

 

Here are the players and the arguments for and against.  I'll go in descending order from what I think would be most likely & effective to least.  And I think the first 2 are pretty close.

 

Rasul Douglas

Argument for: Physical, zone corner with LOTS of zone experience, incredible instincts, a nose for the ball, and a very vocal leader.

 

Argument against:  Age.  How many effective years will we get with him as our starting Safety?  I think a good number considering Safeties generally age well, but we'll see.

 

Christian Benford

Argument for: Physical, zone corner, very good instincts, a nose for the ball, if he plays well at Safety this year and we extend him after his rookie contract, a starting Safety is a lot cheaper than a starting CB.

 

Argument against:  Young player we've already been grooming as our starting CB who is already really good at the position.  Why ruin a good thing?

 

Tre White

Argument for: Zone corner with maybe the most familiarity with McDermott's D, incredible instincts, a nose for the ball, team leader loved and respected by everyone

 

Argument against: Injury would not only hinder his start to 2024, but also his transition to Safety.  Not a very good tackler.

 

Dane Jackson

Argument for: Physical, zone corner with LOTS of familiarity with McDermott's D, good instincts, loved and respected by everyone on the team.

 

Argument against: Not under contract, so bringing him back would be a serious projection for a guy who's only a borderline starting CB.

 

Kaiir Elam

Argument for: Speed to the ball, a nose for the ball, well-documented as a hard worker, NFL bloodlines, former 1st round draft pick under contract for fairly cheap for 2 more years so converting him successfully (if we could) could get rid of the whole "wasted draft pick" narrative.

 

Argument against: Poor tackler, Has struggled for 2 years to learn McDermott's Zone D.

 

 

Personally, I want to see Douglas extended for 2 years so he's under contract for 3 years total (would lower his CAP hit next year) at a mid level starting Safety range.  I think he'd be a stud at Safety and the 2nd Green Bay CB McDermott would have brought to Buffalo and converted.

 

How about you?

I hate to say it but it's time to move on from Tre. Haven't we learned anything from the Von situation? Tre will never be the same player again time to cut him and use those savings to sign a vet safety plus we have to draft Poyer eventual replacement. The Bills have to get younger this off-season take our meds with the cap and draft well. We have to take a page from the Rams last off-season they got rid of big cap hits and went young and it paid off big time   

[transplantbillsfan]

@Shaw66 Rapp is a UFA and not on our team