uticaclub Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 21 hours ago, The Jokeman said: I'm not going to call him a bust yet but he was projected as 1st Rounder but slipped to the 2nd Rounder for a reason.. Everything I heard about Torrence, I heard about Cody Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, uticaclub said: Everything I heard about Torrence, I heard about Cody Ford. I hate to say it but agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 29 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: This is stupid. He's a great player, no doubt. But a guy like a DE simply DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH IMPACT on WINS AND LOSSES to make them a huge priority like this under the cap. Give me an elite QB, 2 to 3 elite weapons, and a much better than average OL and the rest of the team can be slightly above replacement level and I'll be happy. This is basically KC's formula for success. It works. It's everyone's formula for success. He's a DT, not a DE, but those are both incredibly important positions that absolutely move the needle in terms of wins and losses. Kansas City has exactly one defensive player with a big contract, and it's Chris Jones, a DT. Their formula isn't the "stars and scrubs" model that so many here talk about. It's superstars and draft. You can afford to pay massive contracts to superstar players if you're able to get excess value elsewhere. One of the biggest differences between the Bills and the Chiefs is that the Chiefs have a ton of players whose production far exceeds their contracts. The Bills have Gregg Rousseau, and that's about it. Beane has got to start finding players in the draft who can be difference makers who can give you multiple seasons of production under their rookie contracts. It's far and away his biggest weakness as a GM. 11 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: They're a coach away. Perhaps the Bills are too. Justin Herbert ain't that guy. He's Phillip Rivers, Dak, Cousins, etc. He's always going to tease you into thinking he's elite, but I don't think he's ever going to take that final step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 5 minutes ago, Billl said: Justin Herbert ain't that guy. He's Phillip Rivers, Dak, Cousins, etc. He's always going to tease you into thinking he's elite, but I don't think he's ever going to take that final step. A lot of people are saying that about Josh too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 1 minute ago, Billl said: He's a DT, not a DE, but those are both incredibly important positions that absolutely move the needle in terms of wins and losses. Kansas City has exactly one defensive player with a big contract, and it's Chris Jones, a DT. Their formula isn't the "stars and scrubs" model that so many here talk about. It's superstars and draft. You can afford to pay massive contracts to superstar players if you're able to get excess value elsewhere. One of the biggest differences between the Bills and the Chiefs is that the Chiefs have a ton of players whose production far exceeds their contracts. The Bills have Gregg Rousseau, and that's about it. Beane has got to start finding players in the draft who can be difference makers who can give you multiple seasons of production under their rookie contracts. It's far and away his biggest weakness as a GM. Singletary, Knox, Gabe Davis, Dion Dawkins, Ryan Bates, Matt Milano, Taron Johnson, Levi Wallace, Tyler Bass. So good most got extensions to stay. Now we have to wait for the next generation of talent produce under rookie contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 4 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: A lot of people are saying that about Josh too. Then Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Matt Ryan, Steve McNair, Mike Vick,Cam Newton weren't the guy either if you're looking at winning a Super Bowl and most of these guys only had one chance. That said Josh is still in his prime years and won't be shocked if he gets us a championship within the next three seasons and depending how the rest of the roster develops maybe even another one even later than three years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg Posted July 14, 2023 Author Share Posted July 14, 2023 7 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: A lot of people are saying that about Josh too. If anything, I have heard the "experts" say that Josh has to do much for the Bills to win. They have been more critical of the organization getting him more help. For example, take the Super Bowl last year. The Eagles and Chiefs had the #1 and #2 OL's in football. The Bills were #26 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatherMan Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 21 minutes ago, uticaclub said: Everything I heard about Torrence, I heard about Cody Ford. Everything you heard about Josh Allen, you heard about EJ Manuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 11 minutes ago, Billl said: He's a DT, not a DE, but those are both incredibly important positions that absolutely move the needle in terms of wins and losses. Kansas City has exactly one defensive player with a big contract, and it's Chris Jones, a DT. Their formula isn't the "stars and scrubs" model that so many here talk about. It's superstars and draft. You can afford to pay massive contracts to superstar players if you're able to get excess value elsewhere. One of the biggest differences between the Bills and the Chiefs is that the Chiefs have a ton of players whose production far exceeds their contracts. The Bills have Gregg Rousseau, and that's about it. Beane has got to start finding players in the draft who can be difference makers who can give you multiple seasons of production under their rookie contracts. It's far and away his biggest weakness as a GM. Yea once Ed Oliver signed his deal WGR had a discussion about the best players the Bills have on their rookie contracts. It is Greg Rousseau and Gabe (who is in the final year of his). The numbers bear it out... 2017-2019 the Bills drafted really well since then it is Gabe and Greg plus Dane Jackson and a kicker. That isn't good enough. The 2021 class after Rousseau looks like it might be a sea of nothingness and the 2022 class did not have a particularly good rookie year, though Elam definitely came on down the stretch. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Jokeman said: I can't help it as to me unathletic OL always worry me as to me I feel they are able to dominate in college due to sheer size where the NFL it's more about athletic ability. Toss in he only played one season in a big conference. Your concerns aren't without merit. Stick to your guns. 26 minutes ago, Billl said: Justin Herbert ain't that guy. He's Phillip Rivers, Dak, Cousins, etc. He's always going to tease you into thinking he's elite, but I don't think he's ever going to take that final step. What I find funny is that every one of these guys had a 3 down, all purpose back that the offense should have ran through to ease the burden (Tomlinson being the exception). The coaching staff saw/see things differently and insisted on having these QBs attempt to carry them to the promise land and all have failed/are failing. LA should lean on Ekeler. Instead they don't want to pay him what he's worth. It's lunacy. Edited July 14, 2023 by Chicken Boo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 30 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: A lot of people are saying that about Josh too. Those people are wrong. Herbert doesn't belong in the same conversation as Josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 46 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: A lot of people are saying that about Josh too. Josh’s body of work proves otherwise 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 5 minutes ago, Chaos said: Josh’s body of work proves otherwise 1 AFC championship game appearance in 5 years, despite three straight division championships would indicate the opposite. Look, I'm not dying on that hill, and I'm not saying being Rivers 2.0 is even a bad thing. Despite people hating on him, he's undeniably one of the greatest passers in NFL history.However, he was never able to get a loaded team over the hump. Josh's team isn't quite as loaded, but they've had top 5 talent over the last few years and so the comparisons are going to come. Personally, i think it's more of a coaching problem, but Josh won't escape responsibility if it continues much longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: 1 AFC championship game appearance in 5 years, despite three straight division championships would indicate the opposite. Look, I'm not dying on that hill, and I'm not saying being Rivers 2.0 is even a bad thing. Despite people hating on him, he's undeniably one of the greatest passers in NFL history.However, he was never able to get a loaded team over the hump. Josh's team isn't quite as loaded, but they've had top 5 talent over the last few years and so the comparisons are going to come. Personally, i think it's more of a coaching problem, but Josh won't escape responsibility if it continues much longer. The playoff coaching has been so woeful, one would have to be blind to blame the playoff failures on Allen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 26 minutes ago, Chaos said: The playoff coaching has been so woeful, one would have to be blind to blame the playoff failures on Allen. I don't think Allen is to blame, and if you remember Rivers' postseason issues, a lot of SD's failures were hard to blame on him as well. He had kickers miss chip shots, he had skill position players fumble or bobble throws for picks at the last minute. These weren't all int he playoffs, but they lost so many close games over the years that it did impact the chargers ability to get more cracks at the can. Ultimately what's remembered is that Rivers didn't win when it mattered. They don't remember the fumbles, bobbles, dropped passes, defensive implosions, penalties or anything else that cost them a chance at a ring. Maybe Josh escapes that criticism if he continues to dominate in spite of a ring, but it's hard to avoid it forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCofNC Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 8 hours ago, uticaclub said: Everything I heard about Torrence, I heard about Cody Ford. My exact fear. Hopefully, it’s not a repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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